Hi everyone,<P>My H has been in an on/off affair for approx.12 months.<BR>My question is:<BR>What do WS's think of their own actions during an A, and the bottom line is, what do they think of themselves?<P>My H changed from being a kind, proud and considerate man, to someone I hardly recognise. I cannot believe he holds any respect for himself, as all his respect for me and our marriage seems to have disappeared. I know this is the classic 'fog', but surely an intelligent person cannot be blind to everything overnight - especially in their solitary moments.<P>Some light please.<BR>Trisha

Trisha,<P>In my case, my marriage was worse than empty. The only reason I hadn't left was the kids. I didn't go looking for an affair, it sneaked up on me. How did I feel about myself? Absolutely the best I have felt in years. I was able to like myself and believe that my happiness mattered. I was able to think about the future beyond the next month.<P>But I desperately wanted out of the marriage and couldn't get there without messing up the kids. It was very difficult for me to be cheerful at all at home, even when my H wasn't there.<P>Yesterday I told my husband that I do want to stay married. While it is a relief to have decided that, I am very sad. We are both hoping that at some point I will be in love with him again. Today, however, I still love OM and I miss him very painfully. <P>If I had the last year to do over, I am pretty sure I would do exactly what I did. <P>Fog? I don't know. It seems pretty easy to write off the WS's pain as "mid-life crisis," "fantasy," or "fog." Maybe in some cases,it's appropriate. But in other cases, and certainly in mine, the A is very serious. I did not wake up one morning and say Omigod, I'm over 40; what am I doing with my life. This came after years of emptiness that started at least a decade ago. Harley says the reason the A happens is that it meets needs that weren't being met. Having our needs met makes us feel whole, so some WS's feel just fine about themselves, albeit sorry about the situation as a whole.<BR> <BR>I never imagined I could be a WS; I now recognize that people who are going through any kind of marital disruption are probably in a lot of pain at some level, whichever role they happen to be playing. <P>--Cottonwood<P><p>[This message has been edited by Cottonwood (edited October 11, 2000).]

Trisha:<P>Your question seems to anticipate a certain kind of answer -- "Oh, I felt AWFUL every moment, of COURSE I hate myself." I think, in fact, that during my A I felt pretty awful most of the time. But it wasn't always because what I was doing was a horrible thing to do to my W.<P>I think most WSs would agree that their A grew not out of a need for sex, or a distaste for the BS, but out of how the WS felt about himself/herself. In my case (fairly classic, I think), I was lonely, felt unable to make friends on my own (i.e., that weren't ones that my W had made and maintained), getting older, etc. Beginning what grew into an EA with the OW helped some of those feelings -- she was someone who was smart, young, and appeared to just like me for myself, etc. Of course, as the relationship grew inappropriately close, there was all kinds of psychic stress over it -- I knew it wasn't right, but had been so grateful for it that it was hard to let go, hard not to want to be even closer, as sad as that sounds. When the EA crossed the line to a PA (once), I was devastated, both because of what I had done to my spouse and what I had done to the OW.<P>I guess what I'm saying is that the A proceeded out of bad feelings that I had about myself, feelings that the A (in my addled head) seemed a way to solve. I knew it was wrong, and that of course made me feel awful about it, but the feelings about myself were worse, if that makes any sense. Hope this provides some clarification. Also hope that you and your H manage to put things back together for yourselves.<P>

Trisha,<P>In my case, how I felt about myself depended upon how well I could compartmentalize my feelings at any given moment.<BR>For example, the thrill, joy, mutual attraction, sexual chemistry I felt with OW when I was with her made it easy for me to live totally in the moment and "forget" about my spouse and marriage. I felt wonderful! I did not think about the wrongfulness of what I was doing.<BR>Minutes later, after arriving home to a sweetly sleeping wife, reality would hit. How guilty I felt then! What kind of man am I that I have sunk this low? Who would ever think that I would do this sort of thing?<BR>Next day at work. OW is there. Can't wait to talk to her, see her, sneak a hug and kiss from her! I'm a Cakeman -- I can have my cake and eat it too! Two women, especially one (OW) who adores me! If I get caught, who cares? The marriage is basically over anyway!<BR>At home again. Bright eyed 10 year old daugther shares her day with me. What am I doing? How could I abandon her and her mother!???<BR>See how I can compartmentalize? I can separate the two pretty well - at least for awhile.<BR>Maybe your husband does feel bad about himself and what he is doing at times. Maybe at other times, with OW, he feels great and doesn't think about the awful thing he is really doing. In the end, it will all crash, because it cannot be sustained, and then he will feel really bad.<P>Rockaway<p>[This message has been edited by rockaway (edited October 11, 2000).]

Wow I can relate with all of the answers and feedback you have received. The last one hits the nail on the head when the affair begins. Seperation is pretty easy. I couldn't want to get to work either so that I could see the OM. So, at the beginning of my affair I felt wonderful with the OM and at home I was able to cope. I knew deep down that I wanted out of my marriage I just didn't know how to get out of it. After awhile though I realized that not only did I want out of my marriage but that I really and truly loved the other man. That was when the real ugly side of me appeared at home. I literally hated being there and I started to not just dislike my husband but hate him for forcing me to be married to him. Now realize, it wasn't a physical force but I really felt stuck. That's when the depression and pain really set in. Scared to death is more like it. What I do feel bad about is how my marriage ended not that it did end. If I would have handled getting out better my ex might not be the vandictive and down right nasty ex and father that he is to this day.

Man, those posts were really hard to read.<P>Without trying to burn any of you I have one question...if your marriages were so horrible, why did it take meeting another person to make you realize it?<P>Sounds like bull*&%$ to me!!<P>allison

trisha,<P>I think I am a little different here than some of the WS's. I my case I had a wonderful marriage to a woman who was everything to me. I considered her to be perfect and maybe that was the problem, I don't know. I have looked back at my marriage and can see no valid reason for me to cheat. The feelings that I had for the OW arose out of our ability to communicate with each other. You see, I had known her for more than 14 years. She had problems in her marriage which is probably why she sought me out. But, because of her need for help, I felt good that I could be there.<P>But, now that I can look back, I see that I was decieved on her part. She did not need me. She was using me as an excuse to get out of her marriage which she wanted to do all along. In the process, she also wanted to destroy the relationship that peppermint and I had. As I look back, I can see how easily I was drawn in to this affair. It was not about sex, but about the good feeling that I got by feeling needed. Always when I met her somewhere, it was because she needed me for something and I willingly went along.<P>Now I hate the person that I was. I look back over the past 15 months of my life and it doesn't even seem like I was the same person. I as yet don't know that stranger that invaded my mind to lead me into such an evil life. I feel so sorry for the OW's H because he didn't deserve any of this. I am so sad for my W for the same reason. <P>I know I have to put the past behind me and move on, but it is just so hard to forgive myself. I have nothing but hate for the OW, but I must let go of those feelings also or they will slowely consume what good there is in me. Peppermint and I will survive if I will do the right things. The affair is over and I am almost in my right mind, but I am still so mad at myself that I find it very hard to look in the mirror. But even that is getting better everyday.<P>fs

Hey everyone:<P>Although as a BS I find the replies hard to read, I am glad that Trisha started this post because it is apparent they are just what I need. Not having been in a WS's shoes makes it hard for me to understand what could motivate a person to cause such pain to his family.<P>But I can see some truth in the posts from WS so far...maybe they didn't handle it as it should have been handled or as I think it should have been handled, but that doesn't negate the feelings.<P>Obviously at some point they were torn about their involvement, but the good feelings about themselves they were getting from OP made it hard to not justify continuing. I can see that...and if we can turn it around and look at it from the WS point of view then perhaps we can examine the causes and not be left just trying to pick up the pieces and patch up the hurts.<P>I hope more WS reply because I want to understand. How about you?<P>Faye

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Without trying to burn any of you I have one question...if your marriages were so horrible, why did it take meeting another person to make you realize it?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Inertia. You get used to things being a certain way and even if it's not good, it's know. To change it would invite the unknown, which could be either better or worse. If you find something that feels better, a change seems like it would be better and nudges you out of inertia.<P>For instance, I had an old car. I liked my old car. I was comfortable driving it. I knew it's little quirks and I was satisfied with it. I had the opportunity to drive a much better, faster, newer car. I enjoyed it, but went back to driving my old car thinking that it would still feel comfortable. It didn't. It felt like a sh**box.<P>I think people are willing to put up with an unhappy status quo unless they find something that feels better (that's the perception, not necessarily the reality). Usually, people are not looking for it. It finds them. And then BAM! The whole world looks different.<P><BR>

I agree with Allison!<P>I am angry and disappointed that my man didn't share his concerns over our relationship with me. He shared that with another woman, and he as he put it, one thing led to another. He says I'm very caring and loving, so it's not as if I'm unapproachable.<P>Did he make any effort to reconnect with me emotionally? No. I take responsibility for my part in being in a situation where an affair could occur, but when he finally told me he was unhappy he was already involved with someone else. What can a person do at that point? I'm at page 1, but he's already on page 40!<P>So, I guess my question here would be: How many of you talked to your spouses about the status of your relationship? Not just hint at it, but really sat down and said, "Honey, we're in trouble. I'm feeling ...."<P>Sorry, just letting some steam out.

You know what? Having been on both sides of this thing gives me an insight that I wish sometimes I didn't have.. but here goes:<P>From a betrayers point of view... yes, I talked to my H over and over and over again about how unhappy I was. I begged him to go to counseling, and even went by myself - off and on for YEARS. I prayed in church about it, told my friends and family about it, even my kids knew about it (that was bad, but there you have it). I couldn't always say exactly what was missing, but I did have some basic needs (before I had even heard of EN's) that he wasn't meeting and I told him so. I tried to be happy with just what he could give me, to accept things as they were, to overlook/forgive/turn a blind eye to his affairs of the 80's. None of it worked, in the end.<P>Mine was an exit affair, and I got my wish I guess. My divorce is final in a month. When I was going through it, I was writing here, and I think my posts speak for themselves. I hated me. I hated what I'd done. I hated my life. <P>My H's cheating was for different reasons, but the last affair was revenge on my affair. He was angry and hurt. He feels like crap now because he thought we'd get through that like we had his prior affairs (3 of them). There just comes a time where enough is enough.<P>

New Beginning,<P>You are a strong woman, for living the life that you did with your H. Thanks for sharing, if you feel and believe that you did all you could for your marriage then perhaps divorce is the best avenue. <P>I don't know that all WS did as much as you in communicating your unhappiness, but now that things have turned out the way they have, you'll have no regrets because you did everything you could.<P>But, wouldn't it have been better to leave the marriage first and then get into another relationship? You mentioned that your A was an exit affair, does the OM feel used? Is there a W who has been hurt by your exit affair?<P>Anyway, good luck to you and I hope you find the happiness you deserve. <P>Blessings, Many Tears

Hey Guys:<P>I refuse to believe that there are two people in a relationship and only one of them knows he's unhappy. We know that something is not right...we just ignore it like Truthseeker says because it is easier then facing it. And then one day something comes along (OP) to change that and we're suprised. But should we be?<P>This is still concentrating on the after effects...not the who, whats, whens or whys....what did the WS feel like, what was missing, could anything have been changed, why didn't they say something, when did this all begin, how did S fail to meet needs?....a world of unanswered questions...questions best answered by the WS himself. Give them a chance to do so here.<P>Faye<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited October 11, 2000).]

Many Tears,<P>Thank you for the kind words.<P>To answer your questions: <P>Yes, I *should* have left my marriage first, and should <B>never</B> have had an affair of <B>any</B> kind. I guess that's kind of a given, eh?<P>The OM didn't feel used, he said (and still says) because he felt lucky. Why? It woke everyone up. His relationship with his sig. other (they've lived together for nine years) is better than ever before. He still won't marry her though, but as long as they're happy, who cares? I consider them married. I work with him (for another three weeks and then I'm gone, thank God) so there's been constant contact (bad, very bad). I've worked with him for 18 months since this thing ended (it lasted 3 months), and amazingly enough there have been **no recurrances of the affair**, so it <B>can</B> be done!<P>Again, thanks for the kind words and well wishes.

Az_Allison, Many Tears, Buffy, Trisha, et al. . . <P>Genuinely sorry that the posts on this thread were so hard for some of you to read. They were, let me assure you, equally hard to write. For the most part (Cottonwood being an exception), I don't think most of us WS have warm fuzzies about what we've done.<P>In all fairness, the question was phrased to be kind of a trap. "My husband stopped being a good person and became someone I didn't even recognize (i.e., a bad person). Don't YOU feel you've become a bad person, too?!?" <P>That kind of question sort of asks you to (a) reveal yourself to be generally unrepentant (such as Cottonwood), and therefore a cad in the eyes of all the BSs in the crowd, (b) nervously try to explain yourself (me, Rockaway, Bonnie Sept), while still showing how bad you feel or (c) explain how different you are from the other "bad" WSs (Firestorm) because you were tricked, or temporarily insane, etc.<P>You'll probably get about a thousand different responses if a thousand different WSs posted here. I still think, however, that with the rare exception of a truly awful marriage, most WSs would still say that they did what they did because on some level it made them feel better than they had been feeling -- whether the source of their bad feeling was a mediocre marriage (Cottonwood), a mid-life crisis (me), some need to be needed by another (Firestorm), etc. <P>One thing my W said to me in the immediate aftermath of my revealing my A is sticking with me; in fact, I'm clinging to it with all my might. She said that "no one is truly as bad as the worst thing they've ever done." I'm hoping that's true, that genuinely decent people can have bad moments, even bad periods that last years, and still have redemption.<P>Oh, and Az_Allison, your post was, I think, a LB. Not all A is based on a bad marriage, and for those for whom it was, I don't think anyone said that they didn't realize they were in a bad marriage until they met the other person. All said that they were unhappy, met the other person, etc. No one here (again, other than Cottonwood) has sought to say that what they did was a good or the right thing. There's no justification here, only explanation. Thanks for listening

My Betrayed Spouse's $.02 here:<P>During my H's A (which is almost identical to firestorm's) I felt the distance and he was cruel. I became so unhappy I told him so and that I felt we were no longer compatible and told him we should divorce (not knowing he was in the middle of his A). I did this many times throughbut the A but he would always grab me and say he would change & try to be a better H and we would end up crying together.<P>Having his cake and eating it too? I tend to think so. But compartmentalizing is a new one on me. Hmmmm. <P>He swears (and OW does too) that he continually told her he loved me and would never leave me. Like firestorm said, he also thought his W was perfect. All I know is I sure as hell wasn't feeling loved. <P>If any WS' learn anything at all from this it's that I hope they would seek counseling or a divorce attorney first before ever letting any other OP come between them and their spouses. Anything less is just plain cruel. I honestly don't think I could live thru this a second time.<P>

Yuck...another OH MY! question.<P>Well, I'm not a WS so I can't answer your particular question.<P>But, I can turn it around and ask myself:<P>What did I think of my actions following d-day?...and what do I think of myself?<P>Well, to put it mildly, I acted HORRIBLY: The biggest witch that ever walked the face of the earth. I did EVERYTHING that Harley says NOT to do. And, in the beginning, I JUSTIFIED my ugly behavior. I had that, "if you insist on playing with matches, you DESERVE to get burned" attitude...that "holier than thou" attitude...that "how dare you" you big $%&*#@! SOB. Not very Christian-like. And, yes, I KNEW it WAS WRONG--and yet, I did it anyway.<P>And for the longest time, I held on to my justifications....after all, I was a*good* person, I was the *faithful* person, I had everyone on *my side*...even God...right?<P>WRONG! I was in my own *fog*...and it sucked the life right out of me. I was my own worst enemy. I was fighting myself at the time--and didn't even know it.<P>In trying to prove to my H that he was a "MONSTER", I had turned myself into the "KING OF MONSTERS." <P>And, eventually, I had to stop and take a good hard look at myself. <P>...and, what did I think of myself?<P>I hated the way I had allowed myself to behave. I hated that I had allowed my H's affair to impinge on my sanity...my spirit...to *define* me. I hated that I made the choice to react in the lovebusting ways that I did. I WAS VERY WRONG to blame my actions on his affair--after all, I made the decision to react the way I did--I CHOSE to be/chose to stay bitter, angry, resentful...my H wasn't doing this to me--I was doing this to myself! Likewise, I realized that H could not blame his affair/actions on anything I had, or hadn't, done. He was responsible for his actions. He made the choice to get involved. He chose to be unfaithful.<P>Like it or not, we both had to accept the fact that we each CHOSE to make poor decsisions. We are, after all, merely HUMAN.<P>Healing starts when each individual accepts responsibility for their actions. It's really not important how we feel about ourselves when we are caught up in unflattering behaviors (more than likely--at the time--we feel entitled to our actions).....what's important is that we come to the realization that WE ARE ultimately RESPONSIBLE for how we chose to behave/act/feel...<P>...and, once we come to this realization, we are able to learn from our mistake and work diligently to refrain from making the same mistake a second time. I believe it is at this point when we are ready to ask forgiveness and able to forgive ourselves. <P>Peace, ~Marie<BR>--------------<BR>"Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them." ~unknown<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited October 12, 2000).]

Taxman and others,<P>It is nothing but justification.<P>Hey, I have been nothing but kind and understanding to the cheaters that post here. I was one of the only people that did not flame poor NoMas right off these boards.<P>But...I'm telling you...call it what you may, MLC, bad marriage...I don't care. There is no excuse to put another person through this hell.<P>I know I should be using all of my time reading all the books that tell me how I should be feeling. Yeah, I hear time and time again how someday I'll feel better, but I want to know WHEN...can someone tell me. When I meet someone else, that seems to work for some. Like I will ever again expose my heart to another person after this. Never.<P>Yeah, call me vindictive, unable to learn, anything you want. I AM PISSED!! I'm not mad at any of you, but this was just too much for me today. I shouldn't have posted what I did, but my gosh, ... "IT FELT GOOD....I LIKED WHO I WAS WHEN HE/SHE WAS WITH ME...MY MARRIAGE WAS BAD FOR A LONG TIME". <P>What about promises. What about the person left behind. What about my precious children who just want to have the Sunday Bar-b-Q back with dad in the back yard while they're in the pool.<P>So you guys justify all you want, I guess it's no worse than me venting. We all love to come here and hear each others stories, feel a little lucky sometimes cuz ours is maybe, just maybe, not the most hopeless situation on these boards. We hope and pray for each other...because only we know the true pain that the others are feeling.<P>I'm sorry it's hard for you, betrayers. I'm sorry you feel the guilt when you look into the eyes of those who loved and trusted you. If there is a God in Heaven you will never, ever do this to another human being as long as you live.<P>allison

Hi Allison,<P>Honey, I felt your pain from your post. I have a strong tendency to feel the same way, I try to understand and take my 100% of 50% of the marriage and it's failure but I just don't see WHY, WHY, WHY.... Why the WS's don't TELL (not hint) TELL the BS that they're so damn unhappy BEFORE they start an A.<P>Can someone PLEASE tell me WHY ... <P>I really don't believe that a very LARGE portion of the WS really are honest in their assessment of how they told their spouses that the marriage was in trouble ... I think they (BS) were unhappy, yes, but their unhappiness is within themselves, not necessarily the marriage, so that's why I THINK they didn't tell their BS about being so unhappy for so very long. They were unhappy with themselves, not the marriage ... so when a NEW and EXCITING person shows on the scene ... that gives them attention or fills those unmet needs (the needs that they didn't tell, not hint, their spouse about) ... they go with the good feelings. Makes them feel happy about themselves.<P>I maybe shouldn't post this, but I want to hear some more from the BS about "how" they were so unhappy before the A, and how they told their spouse about the unhappiness.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 11, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>I try to understand and take my 100% of 50% of the marriage and it's failure but I just don't see WHY, WHY, WHY.... Why the WS's don't TELL (not hint) TELL the BS that they're so damn unhappy BEFORE they start an A.<P>I maybe shouldn't post this, but I want to hear some more from the BS about "how" they were so unhappy before the A, and how they told their spouse about the unhappiness.<P>Jo<P>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 11, 2000).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How about, "I don't love you," "I don't feel anything for you anymore," two years BEFORE the affair? Is that clear enough?<P>My husband tells me he knew 10 years ago I was only there for the kids. By then I had quit praying to love my H, just to endure until the kids didn't need me anymore. He was never there for me; not then, not ever.<P>I'm not justifying what I did. I'm told there was a scene in A Bug's Life where the moth flies toward the bug zapper while his friends call to him to stop. "But it's so beautiful!" he exclaims just before he sizzles. <P>That's how it felt. I kept saying, "I can't do this," "I DON'T do this," and doing it anyway. It violates everything I believe in. But in the ordinary course of work, without putting any particular effort into it, OM did so much more than my H did to fill my ENs that I am still in love with him. <P>