I read a post earlier about someone being the perfect man.... and it got me to thinking, that has been one of my wifes biggest complaints, that I am the perfect man, that she can't life up to the way she and her family and friends think she should treat me.<P>So I wonder what charactaristics do I have that she considers "perfect" that bother her so much??? she has expressed her conders about me doing nice things so that she will "owe" me something....<P>I am really trying to improve myself, not to become more "perfect", but to have balance, and not be smothering, or needy.<P>any thought on this subject?<BR>

Had12many-<P>Hey, I went back and read some of your earlier posts. As I remember, your wife is the WS, right? I think what she may be going through is similar to a phase I went through, and by reading some of your past posts, I know there are a lot of similarities between your wife and me.<P>Well, you know and I know that there is no such thing as a "perfect" man or a "perfect" woman. But, after the affair had ended, I felt so guilty, so worthless, I even mentioned on this board that I felt like I was on this lower level than everyone else. I felt like I committed the mother of all sins, and I felt, in my mind that having an affair was no worse than willfully taking someone else's life. A sin is a sin. A wrong is a wrong. <P>After I confided in my H about the affair and told him that I wanted to try and work things out, that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, he forgave me. I even went to confession and was "absolved" of my sins, but I had a very hard time forgiving myself, and I guess to some extent I still haven't done that - even though we've been in recovery for 6 months. I guess I have always been "a perfectionist." <P>Always trying to do the right thing, the right way, and here I go having an affair. Even though I'm fairly successful as far as work, social activities, etc. . .I have very low self-esteem. And after the affair ended, I pretty much lost any self-respect that I may have had.<P>It's been about two months since d-day, right? Well, that was absolutely the toughest time for me, as a recovering WS. I mean, I had taken a huge step, ended the affair, did the no contact thing, but I still felt like this huge failure. Every time my H did something nice for me, I felt like I didn't deserve it, I felt like I didn't deserve him. I never really saw where he had any faults (and of course he does, we all do, but I didn't see them). <P>My problem was, I kept comparing myself to my H, to other people who had "perfect marriages," and all I kept focusing on was what a total loser I was, that I allowed this to happen. . .I got into this mess all by my self, and I felt like I was drowning. I too, had the suicidal thoughts and it went even a little further (but I won't get into that), because when you're caught up in that downward spiral, it just keeps going faster and faster until you hit rock bottom. I always saw everyone else in this higher light and me on this sub-human level. It was weird for a while.<P>I guess the thing that started to pull me out of this - and my H was a big source of help - but Just Learning said that yes, what I had done was horrible, but that doesn't mean that I am a horrible person. Everyone makes their own mistakes, yes, mine was pretty bad, but it shouldn't redefine who you are - that basically, I am a good person who just made a mistake.<P>But as a WS who is truly sorry, and truly remorseful, you kind of just get down on yourself, you keep beating yourself up inside - not only did you let your H and your family down, but you let your self down.<P>So, a large part of my recovery has been recovering my self-esteem, recovering a feeling of worthfulness. It hasn't been easy, but I too, saw my H as this perfect person - that he deserved better than me. <BR>My H used to think that I was just setting him up for a fall - that getting down on myself was my way of letting go of our relationship. I wasn't setting him up or preparing him for the day when I would leave him (letting him down gently, I guess, is what he thought). I really felt that way, and I couldn't understand why he didn't KNOW that he deserved better. In a way, I still have my moments where I regret what I did so much that I start feeling bad about myself as a person.<P>But the bottom line is, I cannot change the past. I cannot undue the mistakes that I made, and I cannot go back in time and pretend that it never happened. But, I can choose how I live with my mistakes and I can become a better person because of it.<P>I guess for me, it is almost critical that I don't focus on the affair too much, because when I do that, I really get that downward spiral turning again. I will never forget the affair, it is definitely not a fond memory, but I can learn and grow as a person.<P>I think your wife is still in the stage that I was stuck in - where everyone else was perfect, she was the one with all the problems, she doesn't understand how things could have gotten so out of control for so long, it really can be confusing.<P>If she isn't on anti-depressants, she may want to give them a try. I never went that route, but I have heard that they help people "maintain" perspective. For me, I guess, I t to maintain perspective by remembering that my relationship with God is a one-n-one thing. . .that God doesn't compare me to others - he loves me and forgives me unconditionally. So, my faith has really helped me. <P>Also, I kind of decided that I still have a long life ahead of me. . .and that I don't just have to flop around, and wallow in this self-pity, self-hate. . .that am a good person who can still do good things in life.<P>I think your wife may feeling the pressure (however self-imposed) that she just doesn't feel like she can live up to everyone's expectations- your expectations, your family's expectations. . .<P>You don't need to change a thing - you are not doing "nice" things to make her feel like she owes you something. . .But your wife needs to feel like she does deserve those nice things, that she does derserve your love and her family's respect. But, it's hard to feel like you deserve those things from others when you really don't feel that way about yourself.<P>I think there's an old saying you can never really love someone until you love yourself. I think she is wrestling with a lot of emotions right now. I explained it this way one time, it's like when you're little, you always dream about the person you'll be when you grow up. Well, I guess right now, I don't like the person that I have become, and if I could start over, I would.<P>But, you know, I can become a better person. Each new day, I have a chance to make positive changes. . In a way, I think your wife may be having those strong waves that I use to have. . doubting everyting, and trusting no one. Because when I couldn't even rely or trust myself, I questioned my h's motives too.<P>I think your wife really needs to get past this phase, and I think it is a phase - at least for me it was. . .I still have times where I feel bad, but I try to only focus on those things that I can change.<P>I really don't think this is about you doing nice things, or becoming a stronger person. I really think the things that are bothering her come from within - it is a refection of how she feels about herself.<P>I'm reading a book right now called Strengthening Your Grip. . in it the author says "life is 10 percent of what happens to you and 90 percent how we respond to it." All of us to have a positive attitude or a negative attitude. . .Making the choice to have a positive attitude is more important than "your past, your education, your bakroll, your successes or failures, fame or pain, what other people think of me or say about me. . .Attitude alone fuels my fire or assaults my hope."<P>I think right now, your wife is feeling a lot of hopelessness - maybe in the way that she thinks everyone wants her to respond - or whether things will really work out for you two, or even whether she'll get to a point where she can live with herself.<P>Take it slowly, try to understand her (even though I know that is difficult), be her best friend first, and partner second. If she doesn't get out of this - she should probably go to counseling or see a doctor. I think maybe - if she is anything like me - she's depressed. But she can get through this, and so can you. So be patient with her. . .Take care (and sorry for the long post - if you made it this far )

SKM - how did the fog lift for you? My wife is also a perfectionist - and very stubborn. I can't imagine her actually waking up to see what she has done. She could live in denial for the rest of her life. Tell me I'm wrong, please!<P>WAT

SKM,<BR>Thank you for the relpy,<BR>as always you give me a perspective that I had not thought about. Something that I remembered while reading my post was a conversation I had with my wife, I told her that what I really wanted was for us to work on our relationship, and stay together. That I thought we had something that was special, and worth a second chance, it was worth working on. Her response was, be careful what you wish for.......<BR>I did not really understand what she could have meant by that at the time, but I think I do after reading your post.<P>Thank you!<BR>I will make a real effort to try to see things from her point of view.<P>Mike

Worthatry -<P>Sorry, it hasn't taken some time for me to reply. I really don't know if I have the answer to your question. For me, I was always fighting a battle within me - I had the high of the affair, but I also had to live with the lying the cheating, knowing that what I was doing was wrong. It was knowing right from wrong and the guilt that I guess pulled me out of the fog.<P>I don't know, in a way, I don't really remember the times when I was in the fog. I just remember confiding in my H about the affair because I could not stand the lies and the deceit. Basically, I am a good person. . .I'm pretty honest and being untruthful (?) was the hardest part of the affair.<P>My biggest dilemna was not being abel to say no to something that I knew was wrong - that's what got me into trouble. I also knew in my heart that I loved my H - that I never went "looking" to have an affair - it found me. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I knew that I would never leave my H - and I guess a lot of that came from my upbringing and really beliving in the concept that marriage is for life. . .Divorce was never really the best option for me - that's not to say I didn't consider it, but I guess I came of the fog when I realized that the affair was just wrong - plain and simple. Once I realized that I had a decision to make - stay with my H or leave. . .So to make that decision, I mentally determined what I needed in a marraige, what I wanted in a H - and my H possessed all of that - I knew that staying with my H would be my best option for having a long-lasting, happy marriage. When I tried to compare my H to the OM - well, the OM just didn't stack up. I mean, he obviously had some qualities that I was attracted to or I wouldn't have gotten into this mess, but all in all, I knew that my H was "the better man" for me. . .Now, I didn't always realize that. . .sometimes I would wonder if I was meant to be with the OM - that fate had brought us together.<P>Well, when I started playing devil's advocate, I said okay I divorce my H, what am I left with? The OM was younger than me - what happens when he gets tired of me? He's already proven that "cheating" is nor problem for him. And, believe it or not, it really came down to trust. . .I felt like I could trust my H way more than I could trsut the OM - <P>So, how did I get out of the fog. . .I don't really know. . .I think it was a combination of factors - knowing right from wrong, religious upbringing, coming up with what I really wanted in life and realizing that I already had that with my H, and finally knowing that it would never work out with the OM, but that I had a chance to work things out with my H.<P>I don't think I answered your question. . .I think some reasons why I stayed in the affair were that it boosted my self-esteem (temporarily), I felt attractive, I enjoyed the "thrill" of being pursued by a younger man. . .but when it came right down to it - it was the lies and cheating that I could not take - lying and cheating on my best friend/my H made it even worse.<P>I decided to end the affair when I finally realized and understood how empty my life would be without my H in it. . .and if I went to be with the OM (albeit temporarily) I knew that my H and I would probably not remain friends - and that is what realy tore at me. . .<P>For me, it kind of came down to saying if the OM died, was no longer around, yeah I would be sad. . .but if my H were to die, no longer be around, I would have been completely devastated. I guess it was that kind of introspection that helped me out. . .But don't ask me how you get someone to think about those things. . .I was lucky, whether it be by the grace of God or fate, I am so thankful that I realized what I could stand to lose. . .<P>I'm sorry if this doesn't help you out, but that was a tough question - Next time, try an easier one !! But bottom-line, if your wife is somewhat a perfectionist, I think she will come to realize that she cannot have an "abnormal" relationship, and that's what an affair is. She will either have to decide to "make it normal" and leave you or she'll have to decide to end it. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your wife. And I hope that she comes to the same realizations that I did.