For those of you whose affairs died a natural death or who did not immediately end the A upon discovery, how did the "fog" clear? Was it a gradual thing that crept back a few times before being gone for good, or did you just wake up one day and it was gone? What was your relationship like with your spouse while it was clearing?<P>I have trouble understanding this whole "fog" concept and any clarification would be helpful.

I am curious about this also, any WS willing to take up the question?

Come on ..... Anybody???<BR>Could really use some input here!

This is something I am really interested in too. Hopefully we'll get some WS opinions, or BS in put on their WS.

OK guys, I am going to give this one a try. <P>Over a year ago, I stepped across the line with a woman that I had known for over 14 years. There was physical contact one time and shortly thereafter, the affair was exposed in September of last year. There was no contact from mid October until she began to e-mail me in June. Contact resumed in early July. But something was different this time.<P>I began to see things in a little different light. It is really hard to explain. Last year I never let go of the fact that I still thought she was still my friend. After contact resumed this year, I began to see numerous flaws in her. I can't really put my finger on any one thing, but I began to open my eyes. I knew I was in this situation and I just wanted out of it. Shortly after 2nd dday, she began to show her true colors and I was able to see exactly what she was. She has been involved in numerous affairs and I was used as an exit affair. She began to tell many lies trying her best to break my W and I appart. It didn't work. She laughed in my W's face right after 2nd dday and told her "she knew what she was but she had what she wanted". That did it! Any feelings that were there completely left after that one.<P>I will say that you do live in a fog. It is a fog of deception. You, as a person, almost completely change into another being. When I look back at the past year, it doesn't seem real. When I think about the OW or some of the situations that we were in, it seems dirty, sleezy, and disgusting. Almost every day that comes I get this horrible feeling that washes over me and I can't believe that I would ever let myself do something like this, but I did.<P>Peppermint and I were trying to rebuild from the first discovery. When I got involved again with the OW, I began to distance myself from everyone aroud me. My personality changed and I became very ill tempered and hateful, to everyone. My W could see the change in me and she can go back to the time the contact started again. But, she also saw the change in me when I finally opened my eyes. <P>Yes the affair died a slow death, but I did wake up one morning and clearly see that this was not where I should be. Nobody helped me kill this affair, I had to do that myself. There was no withdrawal and no feeling of loss. Now I do not ever want to see her again nor ever go down this road again.<P>Hope this helps answer your question.<P>.....fs

My affair I guess was more of last ditch effort to get h to open his eyes to never being here physically, emotionally and such..<BR>He still hasn't realized that and lack of sharing are our problems..he only see's the<BR>affair as the problem..<P>So my fog was lifted when H told me has no intentions of looking for another job..I had to face the fact that money is more important to him than his family..and he's using the affair as the reason to end the marriage..<BR>something he apparently didn't really want or he wouldn't have taken this job 3 months into <BR>the marriage..where he would be gone all the time..so I guess the affair served its purpose for me..it's made me see things as they really are..or aren't as the case may be..

You guys aren't the only ones who don't quite understand the fog! This 'fog' thing has always sounded kinda fishy and more than a little convenient to me - and I was as lost as anyone in mine.<P>This so-called fog tends to be more dense (so to speak) when the WS is still involved with that OP. And it is all-consuming. It prevents the WS from noticing or caring much about serious flaws in the OP. It shields the WS's conscience from the hurt s/he is inflicting on the spouse or the kids. Ironically enough, it allows for microscopic crystal clear vision when it comes to spying the flaws of our spouse or our marriage.<P>For some people it's extremely uncomfortable to take an honest look at their actions and how they affect others. I am one of those, (although I try much harder now to not be like that) and from what I have seen, it's a trait common to many WSs. It's this trait that fuels the reaction of defending ourselves to anyone who confronts us on our behavior. ESPECIALLY behavior that we are questioning ourselves. Very sensitive stuff. <P>Like telling an alcoholic he has a drinking problem when he has yet to accept it on a conscious level. Ever try to do that? Can't be done. So this is yet another element of "The Fog."<P>To answer your question about when my fog lifted .... Mine lifted rather suddenly. I literally did wake up one day and see myself for what I was. We were getting ready to move back to my home state, and there was a question as to whether I was coming with my H to make our marriage work or staying to persue my new, wonderfully exciting life. <P>I knew I was no longer drawing what I truly, deeply needed from the OM. He was halfway trying, but his best try didn't measure up to my H's weakest efforts. I was sick and tired of feeling empty, dirty, lonely, criminal. So I came back. I also must have sensed my H finally making the decision to pull away. He has told me more than once that if I had waited another day to come back that he wouldn't have TAKEN me back. <P>So, that's the oft told story of Carrie's "Fog" lifting. Hope it helps you to see a little more clearly. <P>Foggedly,<P>Carrie<BR>

Thanks for trying to answer. It is still very confusing, but a little better now.<P>A few more questions:<P>Firestorm, you said that your personality changed and you became very ill tempered and hateful to everyone. And from what I've read and lived personally, this seems pretty common. My question (for everyone, not just Firestorm)- were this way when you were with the OP too? Did you know you were being this way with friends and family at the time? Or did the fog have to clear a little before you realized this?<P>Khyra- your situation seems pretty close to mine (except my H is the WS). I guess you were thinking or planning to leave your H and make a life with the OM? I guess a lot of my confusion comes from my H at times seeming to come out of the fog... Apologetic, trying to meet my needs without making a real commitment, spending time with the kids,etc. When the A was really hot and heavy, he was withdrawn, angry, tried not make eye contact with me or the kids, almost everything any of did was wrong. A lot of these behaviors have gone away. He has also said that his relationship with OW will never work in the real world and has complained about a few of her personality traits. Then there are other times that he drops everything to go meet her for a cup of coffee. Is this an indication that the fog is clearing but he's not ready to totally let go?<P>Khyra- how are you and your H doing now?<P>Thorned Rose- how are you?<P>Firestorm- I keep up with what's happening with you and Peppermint. I know you two will make it. Your are in my thoughts and prayers.

Cloudy -<P>Sorry, I didn't reply to your earlier question about the fog. Like Khyra said, I never really understood it either. For me, since day 1 of the EA, I was fighting this battle within me. . .I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I couldn't stop seeing the OM. I knew that I loved my H, but the OM was attractive to me. All along, I kept telling the OM that I couldn't do this anymore, I couldn't meet him, etc. . .But still he pursued me. . .And it wasn't all him, I just couldn't say no to something I knew was wrong.<P>At first, I tried to rationalize everything. Well, it's fate that this OM and I even met in the first place, fate brought us together, so fate must mean that I'm meant to be with this person. It was really weird. I am one of the WSs who claim "I never went looking to have an affair," and really I say that because I loved my H, he's a great guy, I really didn't think I had a reason to have an affair.<P>Anyway, my A started out as friendship. . .and I never thought that this emotional attachment to the OM was wrong - after all, we were just friends, right. Then, I kissed the OM, believe it or not, at the time, when I was with the OM, I never thought that was wrong, I never really thought of it as an affair. Even when I ended the affair, for me it became an affair when it went to a PA. And I know now how wrong my thinking was at the time.<P>It was like I was one person around the OM - someone who "liked to have fun," someone who was successful, fun to be with, confident, secure in herself, sophisticated, living on the edge - my world with the OM was completely different, I was a completely different person around the OM. Yes, I like to have fun, but around the OM even though I told him that what we were doing was wrong, I still went out with him - I guess to show him that I could "handle" myself, that I could control myself and we could be friends. When it went physical, well, more physical than just kissing. . .that's when I definitely knew that what I was doing was wrong. I could not live with the guilt and the lies and I ended the affair and told my H about it.<P>So, I guess the fog for me was that whole time - 5 months - when I was rationalizing what I was doing, even find excuses to justify my actions - well, my H doesn't like to go out and "have fun" so I'll just go out with the OM - I can handle it. . .we're only friends, nothing more. WRONG!<P>Anyway, for me, and I don't know if its' beacuse I'm a woman or what, but when it went to a serious PA, than, well, the battle inside me just erupted.<P>See, when I went home, prior to the PA, I pretended nothing was wrong, even went out of my way to do nice things for my H. But, I was a different person around my H than I was around the OM - the OM only saw the fun-loving, carefree SKM. . .MY H, unfortunately, got the wife from he--. I was irritable all the time - whether from guilt or whatever, but i found fault with everything my H did - because, in the fog, that helpd me to justify my A and what I was doing. My H doesn't really care what I do, so hey no problem. . .At one time during the EA, I even asked my H what would happen if I wanted to have an A? And keep in mind he was totally in the dark, he didn't know anything was amiss. . .and he JOKINGLY said "you know, I just don't want to lose you, so it that means that you have an affair, so be it. If I can't fulfill your needs, go for it. . .we can be swingers." Now, keep in mind that my H is very family oriented. . .He was simply joking, but to me, it was the green light I needed.<P>I guess at the time I wanted him to say - no way, an affair, I would divorce you so fast your head would spin - I guess in a pathetic way, I was looking for him to tell me not to do it - but it wasn't fair. . .Had I been smart, I would have used that as an opportunity to really talk to my H about what was going on, but at that time, I was just looking for reasons to justify what I was doing - God wanted me to be happy, and the OM made me happy, so this must be okay, maybe divorce is okay with God. . . But it wasn't God putting those thoughts in my head.<P>Anyway, feeling I had the green light, the A went to a PA - immediately, I confided in my H about the a. . .Because deep down I knew it was wrong, I couldn't take the lies and the deception. I felt dirty and sleazy, and I felt like my H deserved to know that I was dirty and sleazy. . .that he deserved better. When he forgave me, I went to confession, and vowed that it would never, ever happen again - but that was before I found this site. . .and I stupidly thought I could remain friends with the OM. . .well the friendship, went to an EA, to a PA - in a matter of two months. I think that was another version of the fog, too, that I could still remain in contact with the OM - AND work on my marriage.<P>Well, again, the battle inside erupted, immediately confided in my H again. Now, this was tough to do the first time (end the affair and tell my H), but the second time. . .I couldn't even bare to tell him, but somehow I did, and he forgave me again. It was then that I started buying every book that I could on infidelity, because I did not want to make the same mistake three times. I found this site, ended the A again, and it has been over for 6 months - 3 months with absolutely no contact.<P>It was tough for awhile, because even after the second PA, I sent the no contact letter, but the OM contacted after two months. Again, I thought I could be friends with him, but luckily my buddies here told me otherwise, and I haven't contacted the OM - nor has he contacted me in three months. My goal is to take it one month at a time until I reach a year.<P>So, fog clearing. . .well, I guess I finally realized that what I was doing was wrong, I never really thought the EA was wrong until I found this site about 5-6 months ago. I think, for me, the fog started clearing when I realized what I was doing was wrong - plain and simple. I was confused about what I was feeling for the OM long after the fog started clearing, but things kind of fell into place when I took responsibility for my actions, my choices, my decisions.<P>I think when you admit that what you did was wrong is part of the fog clearing; The second part was asking for forgiveness from my H and my God; the third part was realizing what I stood to lose if I went with the OM - that I could not continue the A and be married; the fourth part was recognizing that the OM had his flaws; the fifth part was realizing that my H loved me no matter what I had done, he was willing to give us a second chance so I should try and do the same, the sixth part was taking responsibility for my actions and recommiting to my marriage. For me, it happened in very quick stages. But, I still restle with remorse, guilt, and other feelings now.<P>During the A, I would avoid eye contact with my H, now I always speak directly to his eyes so that he knows that I am being honest with him. . .I think the fog may be cleraing for your H. . .But he may not have passed through all of the stages that I did. I think the main thing that has helped me to think more clearly has been the no contact thing - it has provided me the time that I needed away from the OM to see the OM and the relationship for what it really was, it wasn't love. . .<P>Now, I get frustrated when I here that I WS wants to separate from their H so that they can "find themseleves" to "figure out what they want." At the time, I wanted these same things, but now, I'm thinking a little more clearly. . .you don't need to spend time away from your spouse to figure things out, you need to spend time away from the OP. I learned that - twice - the hard way. So, while I understand what a WS may be going through, at this point in my recovery I just see what the BSs see - how illogical their thinking really is. I don't claim to have all of the answers, and every situation is different, but when I hear of other WSs going through the same things I did, I feel like I'm beating MY head against a brick wall. No offense to the BSs, they feel that way, too, but I've been there. I've been to he-- and back, so I know that you can change things for the better with your S.<P>Your H has already admitted that the OW has some flaws, that's good. He's already admitted that the relationship would never work in the real world, that's good. He is trying to meet your needs and your familys' needs, that's good. But he hasn't totally committed to you, and toyour marriage. I think he still needs to come to the realization that he can't have both relationships - it's not fair to you, and it's not fair to the OW (not that you really have to be fair to her, but) He needs to make some hard decisions, and the longer he puts that off, I'm afraid the longer it will take all of you to get through this.<P>I think he's making some positive steps, but for whatever reason (and it may just be the addictive lure of the affair relationship) he isn't willing to let go. And I don't know how you get him to realize that he can't have his cake and eat it too. . .But he hasn't to come around to the fact - and he even admits that the relationship with the OW would never work, so why does he continue? He really needs to figure things out with you first, and then if reconciliation does not work, then go off and find Ms. Right. . .For me, I kind of told myself early on that I would give it a year. . .I even made a pack with another WS that we would not contact the OP for 1 year. . .and then, if things did not get better, then I would reevaluate my marriage at that time.<P>Well, I can tell you today, that I am more "in love" (and I chose those words specifically) with my H now, than on the day I married him. Things are not perfect, and even last night we had a talk about the OM and what I was feeling - don't ask - but that's the really cool part of this. . .the biggest change has been that we have been able to communicate better with each other - openly and honestly - so now, I don't even think that having another A would even happen. I know there are no gaurantees, but now, when something is bothering either one of us, we take a step back, and talk things out so it just doesn't build up and explode on us.<P>So, it does get better. . .and my year isn't even up yet. . .So, I'm staying for the long haul and so is my H. . .I think your H just needs to break contact with the OW, he needs to end the affair and give it a chance. Sometimes you just don't feel like you have it in you to end it, but it's like the Nike commercial - Just do it. I've made a lot of bad decisions in the past, so I figured it couldn't get any worse by taking this chance with my H. you know, all during the A, I felt like I had no control over my emotions, or even over what I did. I felt like I couldn't say no to anyone. . .But ending the affair, gave me that control over my life again. . .I'm back in the driver's seat.<P>Your H really needs to get control of this situation - you know that and I know that. Hopefully, that will come in time. . .About the only thing you can do at this point is to continue with Plan A, and hope that he comes to the same realizations that I did. He can't do it alone - he needs you and your support. Tha's why you have to be the strong one -- it really is like an addiction, but he can break free. . .No contact is crucial, at least for me it was. <P>Take care. . .and sorry for the long post, bet you're sorry you asked for more input!!!! <P>

I was very ill tempered toward my family and most of the people around me, even the ones that I work with. I didn't really see how bad I was treating people until my W and some of the people I work with said something about it. I have learned that I was mad at myself the whole time. Have you ever felt like you were mad at someone but you didn't know who? That was the way I felt. <P>I did teat the ow good and was nice to her. However, as I began to see her flaws and noticed things she was doing, I know that niceness began to go away also. This is the time that I began to become my old self. Some of the people at work even said it was nice to have the old firestorm back. That was about the time I began to find some common sense about things and began to get my act together.<P>I don't know if the bad mood was a reaction to the fact that deep down I knew I was doing something wrong and was mad at myself, or if it was a way I had of trying to justify what I was doing. Now I get very mad at myself when I do something that hurts peppermint or makes her mad at me. I am really doing a lot of self bashing right now, but I guess that is good. I need it.<P>Thanks for the thoughts and prayers....fs

SKM<BR>Thank you for your posting. I sent it off to my H hoping he comes to understand the different stages of coming out of the fog. He's been 'ending' the A since May 2000 & ended it again last night. I hope he realizes he's not alone in this & comes to the same place that you are at. He's still very much in the fog. He sent her the final no contact, i'm letting you go letter last night & I saw how much it hurt him. If only he felt such sadness when he does the things that hurt me. He's still at the stage where he believes he's happy with her, loves her more & cares for her more than he does me. I'm growing tired of waiting for him to come out of the fog.

SKM<BR>unfortunately reading your posting had no effect on my H<BR>I should stop hoping

Searching -<P>I'm sorry to hear that reading my post did not have an affect onyur H, but I guess I really didn't expect it to. . .Since he sent the no contact, I'm letting you go letter, that's a positive step, but at the time I sent the no contact letter. . .I still had mixed feelings about the OM. It was only once I had gone about 2 months of no contact that I finally started making some progress (i.e., seeing the affair for what it was).<P>I don't think anyone - even another WS - can tell your H what he should and should not feel or think. . .But, if he truly wants to try and make things work with you - whether they eventually work out or not - just get him to commit to no contact right now. . .The feelings of love between my H and I are just now starting to bloom again. . .You just ahve to take one day at a time.<P>Right now, he's feeling the loss of the OW in his life. I still have days where I just "miss" the OM. And I know that's hard for you (an my H) to know, but I know that the OM and I were not "meant" to be together. . .It just takes time to go through withdrawl. Don't stop hoping for the best. . .You can get through this one way or the other. And hopefully, your H will realize what he is doing. . .<P>I know it's hard, but try not to expect too much all at once. You said he sent the no contact letter, what reasons does he give for wanting to stay with you and ending the affair? It's sounds like he made the choice to try, and that's good. . .Even if he says that he doesn't feel "in love" with you now, that can change. . .but please don't lose hope. . .Your H is going through withdrawl - even feels like he does love the OW - those feelings are real to him now. . .but it doesn't have to stay that way. Just try to take one day at a time, and if he is really going to end the affair - just try to get him to uphold the no contact and reevaluate the way you (and your H) feel after a few months of absolutely no contact. . But during this time, try to focus on you, treat yourself well. . .You don't deserve any of this, but try to become a stronger person because of this. . .<P>Rebuilding your marriage takes a lot of time, effort, patience and perserverance. You CAN get through this, you will know in your heart when you've had enough, but it really does get worse before things get better. Just try to take it one day at a time, don't expect anything from your H right now - with regard to him meeting your needs. . .You need to be the one to attract your H back to you and your family and your home. For me, I think things are working out for my H and I because he really is my best friend first - partner second. Just try to be your H's best friend and maybe he will come around.<P>My H and I still have our rought times, but the rough times are becoming less and less frequent. The best thing that has come out of this whole thing is that we are willing and able to talk to each other more honestly and openly, and that's a very good thing to have in a marriage. . .So, don't lose hope. Things WILL get better, you have to believe that.

The fog - ah yes I remember that.<P>For me the fog was that for a few hours everyday, I felt ok. I could escape the fact that I was lonely and really needed my H, until I discovered that I didn't even want the OM. <P>The PA lasted about 3 months, it died mainly because the Om knew I wans't leaving my H, he moved back home 4 hours away, and I was now miserable with him. I was very quiet when we were together because I now didn't like who I was.<P>As for my H, I was angry & snippy with him because he didn't want to help me. He couldn't understand my misery while he was out (in my opinion) overseas have a damn good time. I was like that mainly after the PA was over. I would call him before I left to see the OM, because I was secretly hoping that he would be there and talk to me, make me laugh and forget the OM. It didn't work. <P>The fog lifeted and I ended it with the OM way before my H came home. But by then, not talking to anyone made it worse and I was harboring all the guilt and ager a little 100 pound woman could handle.<P>I'm glad it's over - the fog is real. I couldn't believe how accurately Dr. H described it in SAA. I felt exactly like that!<P>Hope that helps!<BR>Vee<P>P.S - Firestorm I know this a really old post, but your letter to Peppermint made me cry! God Bless You Guys!