Hi Guys,<P>Whenever my H and I get into an argument, I start to worry that he will decide that he's finally totally fed up with me. I am afraid he will leave, or at least feel like leaving.<P>Do you ever consider leaving your WS over normal arguments having nothing to do w/ the affair?<P>I genuinely try to keep the waters of our marriage smooth for sailing. And believe me, it doesn't come easy for someone like me who tends to thrive on crisis. I bite my tongue and try to simply take a moment to think about what I am going to say before I say it. That, for me is the beginning of breaking a life-long habit. I have been known to scream and throw stuff and slam doors, I fight dirty. He hates that - always has. So, I am altering my behavior. (And feeling more mature, if impotent.)<P>But as we all know, arguements are inevitable. Tonight we had a row over something that has been a long standing issue. While I think that I am right to feel angry, he either doesn't see my side of things or does, but totally disagrees. Either way, when he walks out the door for work angry with me, I worry that he's mulling over everything. He has said many times that what I did is never far from his mind. I worry that he is a lot closer to the edge of losing his love for me than he might realize. <P>I don't think he expects me to never disagree with him. But when I do, he acts like I'm the most annoying person in the world, or like he thinks I'm nuts. See what I mean? I can't just never fight with him. And I AM doing the best I can especially lately and especially tonight to fight "fair", no hollering, no throwing stuff, rather calmly stating my purpose (until the very end). I wasn't perfect, but much much better than I was even 6 months ago. Even 3 months ago!<P>We are at loggerheads here. This is the same thing that happens so much of the time. I feel angry about something he did or said. I tell him about it. He doesn't think I should be as mad about whatever it is. Which makes me even madder! Then he gets pissed at me for getting mad at him over 'something stupid.' It usually just escalates from there. See the cycle? <P>He doesn't see it like this though. He and I think a lot differently sometimes.<P>The gist of what I'm saying here is that I don't want to lose him. But I don't want to lose me, either. And I suppose I am looking for some reassurance. He does his best to reassure me that he won't leave, but I see the aggrivation in his eyes and I start to wonder. And he is a slow boil - he can steam and simmer for hours, even days. I know I hurt him beyond comprehension, beyond what he thought he could take. I worry our marriage will someday simply crumble under the strain that my affairs have caused, just from the normal stressors that come with being married. <P>WHo was is that posted those frigthening statistics? That if there is an affair, your marriage has a whopping 17% chance of surviving the next three years? I'm sure they all thought they'd make it too... then whammo. <P>Sorry, J, I know you are reading this, shaking your head saying "self-fulfilling prophecy." I'm blowing off steam and getting my worries off my chest. It's one of the only ways I stay sane some days.<P>Anyone? <P>Carrie <P>

Carrie, <P>Of course. No brainer. Total lovebusting.<P>Fighting, arguing, demanding, judging -- have you read anything at all about negotiating instead?<P>We just had this discussion on "In Recovery".<P>Let's see if I can link it. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/001322.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/001322.html</A> <P>Go to the 7th post down -- I copied directly from the Q & A section of Dr. Harley's website. In fact, I think you should check out the Q & A column "Having Trouble With the Policy of Joint Agreement".<P>Good luck.<BR> <P>

This is where I differ a bit with MB principles.<P>The three stages of marriage...I don't remember them exactly, but I think fighting is a whole lot better than getting to where we were, shutting down. My H and I have no idea how to fight, that is one of the main things that got us in this much trouble.<P>Even during our seperation when we would begin to have a spat, and I would try to settle things down and be "reasonable" my husband would say, "hold it...this is not a bad thing here, us fighting". Shows there is still something there I think. If you're willing to fight something out it means there is still a spark there.<P>What's scary is indifference. I'd sure rather have fighting than just not caring anymore.<P>Yeah, you and your H have two different styles, and it's hard to fight without letting it get out of hand, but I think fighting is akin to passion...remember early in your marriage, the fighting, then the making up....it was pretty great stuff.<P>Nothing wrong with keeping it fair, trying not to LB, but keeping it all in kills passion in my opinion.<P>allison

Khyra,<P>I am certainly no expert on this subject, but I have a few random thoughts. Maybe one of them will trigger something in your situation.<P>First, I tend to agree with the previous posters. Your H gets annoyed with the fighting, but that doesn't mean he won't love you. <P>Now I have got to ask a personal question here. How are the makeups???? If they are good, then you are OK. Sometimes the makeups make the fight worthwhile, you know. <BR>So if you cannot find a way to change anything else, make the makeups memorable. <P>You touched on something, that I know there are books for and that is fighting "fair". You do have to worry that you get into such a habit of fighting that you rip the scar tissue off...For either of your really. You also need to understand if you are consistent in your fighting.<P>What I mean by that, is the following. One of the best ways to intimidate people is to be inconsistent, almost irrational. You really get them off balance. People don't like being off balance and will try to avoid this situation, placate the person doing it. However, if it continues deep resentment develops and then as someone pointed out "indifference". If indifference sets in you are in trouble. Something to consider.<P>Actually, the best thing to do is exactly what you know to do, fight a lot less. But how? It appears that this approach to problem solving has been in your quiver of arrows for a long time and probably learned from home situation.<P>I guess my suggestion, is that before you let go of that arrow, realize that your H really does love you and doesn't want to hurt you. He isn't your trained dog either, just as you aren't his. Now I know this is easier said than done. I also suspect that you often think he does something to get you back for what you have done to him. I suspect there is a part of him that says don't bend to far backwards for her, look how much she has hurt you. However, there is very clearly a major part of him, that loves you dearly. Whether you intended to or not you have tested that part pretty severely and found it to be true. He loves you deeply.<P>I suppose that if there is any one good thing that comes from an affair it is that the WS knows if the marriage is recovered it is that the BS does love them deeply.<P>So Khyra, having announced that I don't know much, I proceed to say a lot. Maybe that is a natural law: the less you know the more you talk. <P>I think you are correct to worry about the fights. I think you have several ways of addressing them. I think you do have to worry about indifference ( I can't please her so what the heck. It might have been one of the reasons for the affairs, I don't know).<BR>But I suspect between you and Unseen2 you can work this out. Maturity is a factor, but maturity is nothing more than learning what works and what doesn't, and the remembering why you want it to work.<P>Hope something is this rambling to you helps.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

*<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited October 14, 2000).]

The three states you are talking about are the state of intimacy, the state of conflict and the state of withdrawal (not to be confused with the WS' feelings of withdrawal from OP that sometimes occurs).<P>I know you can better get to the state of intimacy from conflict (because when you are in the state of withdrawal you have built up a wall, shut down, don't really care enough to fight or interact). But I don't think fighting is what brings you to intimacy, it's the "sending out of an olive branch" that does it. <P>One spouse has to "give", be the rational one, the one who wants to save the relationship. <P>It's explained on this website. Maybe I can link.<P>Anyway, you're lovebusting. I don't know of anyone who can get to the state of intimacy that continually does something that their spouse detests. <BR> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html</A> <P><BR>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited October 14, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited October 14, 2000).]

Hi Carrie,<BR>Wow! I think you are my sister and father. I would like to suggest you read The other side of love by Gary Chapman. <P>The book provides strategies and techniques for dealing with your anger. I think it's a good step that you recognize your explosive behavior as unhealthy. This will teach you some alternatives for dealing with this emotion.<P>Also, read Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward. It's a wonderful read and will enlighten as far as things people say and do as a way of controlling the situation. It too offers strategies for changing relationship habits. Good luck.

????<P>Thanks for all replies ... I read them all carefully, and some a couple times over.<P>Leilana: I read the link to your post and got some good feedvack there, thanks! Now, one thing I'm not clear on is this: You mention LBing in your first post to me, and I wasn't sure who it was addressed to me or my H as LBing. <P>Quote:<P>Of course. No brainer. Total lovebusting.<P>Fighting, arguing, demanding, judging -- have you read anything at all about negotiating instead?<BR> <BR>Leilana, I DO try to negotiate - but there IS no negotiating with someone who does not see anything wrong with waht he is doing. I rarely have ever demanded ANYTHING - and I have only demanded something when I had begun considering breaking away from our relationship due to the pain it was causing me (i.e. him not telling his parents we were engaged or married over long periods of time {years}) I did set my foot down then, many times! <P>Next, Lei, you go on to say:<P>Anyway, you're lovebusting. I don't know of anyone who can get to the state of intimacy that continually does something that their spouse detests. <P>Can you clarify who you addressed this to - AZ Allison or me? I will wait to say anything further until I understand better where you are coming from.<P><BR>AZ: I agree that not fighting can be an ominous sign of apathy! I agree that I would worry A LOT if he never bothered to argue w/ me on anything at all! We don't argue a whole whole lot, and rarely do we have a "fight." But these things happen in marriage, between family, and even w/ friends, and I worry that one day he'll just get sick of me and leave. I worried about this even before I had any affairs, and it's an even more pressing concern than ever before.<P>On the passion note, I had always wished we could do the torrid make-up love scene thing, but I can't recall that we ever have. We had some of that passion during the terrible time of my affairs, but we weren't exactly making up then <P><BR>JL: There you are Our make-ups are rather vanilla, slow, and anti-climactic (for me at least). I usually end up being the one to apologize - and by usually, I mean like 95-99 % of the time. (Think I'm kidding? Wish I were.) I apologize for whatever things I had said or done that may have hurt or angered him, and most of the time I promise him that I will work on changing ABC and D. And then, no matter how hurt I was over what he said or how he said it, it is VERY rare that I ever get an "I'm sorry" from him. I can probably count the times on one hand that he has apologized on his own (or even at ALL) in the 5 1/2 yrs we have been together. And I guaran-goddang-tee you it's not because he never did anything wrong! <P>And to anyone who mistakenly thinks that it's not importnat to hear "I'm sorry" now and then, let me tell you how very wrong you are. "I'm sorry" shows you care and acknowledge that you hurt the other person. It doesn't mean you 'lose' the arguement - your points still stand. I don't need or even want to hear it every time we argue, but next to never is far too infrequent to convince me that he actually validates how I feel. He says I should just "know" this.<P>Call me crazy, call me high maintenance if you want. <P>Yes, I can't expect to recieve a positive response to being irrational. But, you see, 'irrational' is a funny word - what one party veiws as being irrational, the other party may see as being reality for them. <P><BR>Some cases it's obvious when I was acting that way. (but not the argument we had that sparked this post) I have come a long, long way from the pouty, volitile (sp?) 20 year old J first met. I see ways in which I have matured considerably. However, I'm not all the way there yet, JL and I do agree with you 100 % that that sort of behavior does push the ones you love far away from you. I'm going thru that w/ my own mom right now. (Guess who I learned it from? )<P>You're not rambling, and of course as always your post has helped considerably.<P>Tessa: Is the only thing from my post that got thru is my HISTORY of explosive behavior? Yes, I do have a temper, and I could benefit from using techniques I have already learned regarding more appropriately and effectively venting my anger. But if you had perhaps read my post a little more carefully before responding, you might have noticed that I did approach the present situation calmly and reasonably. <P>I sure do hope that doing THAT is not considered grounds for needing to read a book entitled Emotional Blackmail! <P>I will check out the books you mentioned when I have the chance. Perhaps I will find some things that apply. <P>My post was about the times I do approach 'my side' of a disagreement in a mature, calm way. It is pretty clear that if you go in swinging madly and screaming about someting that nothing good will be accomplished. I am talking about times when things do get heated, and we walk away mad, not due to my temper but to us not seeing eye to eye at all. And wondering if anyone ever thought about leaving WS under such annoying yet common duress.<P>Khyra

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Khyra:<BR><B> You mention LBing in your first post to me, and I wasn't sure who it was addressed to me or my H as LBing.</B><P>Actually, I thought you were posting that you were worried that your H might be compelled to leave you in part because of the way you were arguing, so in effect, I was addressing it to you. <P>I did not get the idea that you were complaining that you were losing feelings of love for your H from all the arguments. You sound upset about the way you constantly it sounded like it happened alot, anyway, but later in another post you say it doesn't happen that often) disagree but you did not say in your post that it was causing <B>you</B> to want to leave. I'm re-reading where you say you are afraid of "losing" yourself. Is that where I took a left turn? I guess I don't really understand what you mean by that. <BR> <BR>You say you want reassurance. Reassurance that your H won't leave you over the fighting? If he's getting lots of love units sucked out everytime you argue--you say looking at you with annoyance, aggravation, like you're "nuts", I'd say he's feeling lovebusted and that isn't a good sign of reassurance. <P>Can I share something a little personal? My H had the A, right, but if today he acts grumpy, impatient, aloof--in even a fraction of the way he did during the A--it's liable to send me into a tailspin. It's like a trigger. I'm reminded of the crappy way he treated me during the A and for a split second of insanity, I feel like he's been in contact with her again. It takes herculean strength not to open a can of whoopass on him at that point. I literally have to do a 10 count to calm myself down. It's a reflex. But tons of love units get withdrawn in my own love bank with my overreaction if I'm not careful.<P>Perhaps your H is doing the same thing--without the 10 count. Maybe he's being triggered everytime you disagree with him, being reminded of how you did that during your A's--like you lack respect for his opinion or him as a man. <P>I'm not siding with your H, Hon. Not telling his parents about your marriage is scuzzy! Not apologizing ever sucks big time. But you love him, so I'm sure he must have some redeeming qualities.<P>This sounds like something major in your marriage. If you like, I can try to find more links for you about conflict plans for resolution, but you probably already read them from this website already, huh?

My H read these posts (lurker that he is) and wanted me to clarify some things. He said what I wrote made him sound terrible. This was not my intent .... I think he could do the best work of explaining the whys and wherefores of his actions than I can - I still don't quite understand it all myself. <P>About the not telling his mom and dad thing - well, here's the readers digest version, if you want it. He had one failed marriage not too far behind him (she cheated on him too ). Their divorce proceedings took a LONG time. So by the time he actually had the papers in his hands, they had already been 'divorced' in mind, heart and body for years. So from what I understand, in the wake of his former marriage, he was worried that his folks would have something negative to say about his decision to re-marry so 'soon.' His temporary solution was to put off telling them about how serious we were and the promises we had already made to each other until he felt sufficient time had passed. <P>I agreed to back him in his decsion by not telling them or my parents either. I wanted to try to understand him and support him because of all he had been thru already, plus (and here's what I was scared to mention till now) I worried that if I didn't agree to this that we might have to go our separate ways. That was more than I could bear. So basically, he did this due to his previous failed marriage; he did not want his parents to think he was making the same mistake. <P><BR>The irony of it all.<P>This is something that I have worked hard to get past, and I said that I have forgiven him. I rarely ever feel angry about it anymore, and when I do, it is nowhere near as intense as it used to be - more like mild annoyance. Yes it was not the best thing to do, but remember, this is the same man who did forgive my infidelity - the pain I caused him is far greater than everything he had ever done to me all put together and multiplied twice. <P>He's not a scuzzy guy at all (well, maybe first thing in the morning, sometimes - or is that 'scummy'?) The situation is as well resolved as it can be. He told his mum and dad the truth almost a year ago. They are very kind to me and love their grandson! I just need to REALLY get over it, like I keep saying I am.<P>Leilana: You are so right about fighting in LBing ways. To me that much was obvious. My temper is such that when I get mad enough, I just don't give a hoot! Well, I have been learning to care - real quick - since H let me know that he'll put up with only so much of that. The ability to be a royal b*tch on wheels is not always a thing to be proud of. <P>My woe is when I present a legit gripe in a non LBing way and he gets ticked. It seems to me that his anger comes about because he doesn't agree with me that it's a big deal, or he just plain thinks I'm full of it. To me, THAT is an LB, BUT ... these are some of the times I worry he will want to leave. He conveys to me that he feels I am being petty and that he is annoyed with me. Why put up with anymore crap from someone who hurt him like I did?<P>As you said, you can relate to that. It kind of scared and saddened me to see that you do think that way - this is where the decision to stay married turns into hard work. WS or not, that terrible thing is not the ONLY thing, good or bad we have ever done in our lives. A MAJOR snafu, yes. And I agree wholeheartedly that one of the things as a WS thatt we must do is excersise more self-control in all areas. We can't just fly off the handle when we get hurt - we must be kinder, gentler, more forgiving all around. <P>However, this shouldn't mean that we have to sort of suffer in silence or keep enduring a situation or actions that we feel are unfair. (This is what I meant by not wanting to lose myself - I don't want to have to sit here and keep my mouth shut from now on because of what I did.) Talk about another great way to breed resentment. <P>Well, there is more I want to write but a certain little boy is telling me it's time to feed him ... very loudly! <BR>

It saddens me that I think that way, too! It didn't use to be that way (pre-A days, that is). <P>And I think it's terrific that your H read here. I sure wish mine would!<P>Sorry about the scuzzy comment--I did qualify that he does probably have redeeming factors! <P>I just finished updating my Love Buster Questionnaire (to pinpoint the source of any unhappiness in my marriage to date) and my goodness!, I'm thinking NO ONE in their right mind would stay married to THIS man! LOL<P>No-one should ever be expected to "keep silent". You didn't mention it, but were you able to read Harley's Q & A columns or articles on negotiation, angry outbursts, etc.? I really believe you have to apply the principles if you want any relief from these (irritating!) marital woes.<P>Lord knows I'm still learning and trying to correctly "nail down" the application of them. But when I get it right, the results are so awesome! I'm wishing the same for you. <P>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>