I brought Firestorms post...All in a Dream, bact to the top, becaue I don't know how to link.<P>I hope if you're reading this, you'll read his post and give me your opinions on something.<P>Ok, I, and several of you guys are on Plan B, or...trying to be on it anyway. Firestorms post made me think about this. Peppermint brought him back you guys. What are we doing here on B? How are they supposed to know we still love them, still believe in them, will support them if we are on B? I know it's supposed to be because we are preserving our feelings right now, but I have never felt further apart from my husband. We always had these terrific talks, God I miss them, more than anything I think.<P>Sounds to me like Firestorm always knew Peppermint was there...fighting for him. That is what brought him back...same with Lostva. The intertia of Plan B is maddening. Yes, I feel better when I avoid my husband, but I can still get him to the point of a normal conversation, if I lead him into it gently. I feel I can still, to a point, reel him in a bit. But that's slipping.<P>Are we doing the right thing here guys? Maybe firestorm could answer this. Should we let them know that we are still here...that we care. It's so easy to start to harden our hearts, very natural...it protects us. They can't break what they can't see. But have we chickened out here? Have our hearts just been broken so many times that we are afraid to reach out?<P>Firestorm, if you're reading this...you have a wonderful gift for writing. I wonder if you do this for a living...if not, you really should think about it. I was just amazed by your dream. When you were in the worst of your fog...what did Peppermint do to let you know she still loved and wanted you? How much difference did it make? Did you feel you were going to loose her for good? <P>confusion reigns... <P>allison

allison,<P>I wish I knew. I wish I knew the right thing to do, the right way to act. But I think it goes back to Firestorm had to start to end the affair on his own. Needed to start to see faults in OW, needed to start to come out of his infatuation. You can plan A someone to death ( Hmm, maybe thats the idea) but when they are continueing the affair it is not getting you that much.<P>I think we do need to be ready to love them and show them that and lead them back to the marriage. But we are dealing with the tough ones. The ones that dont quit after discovery. The ones that either want us both or think they want OW. At some point our plan A becomes a LB.. at least I think mine did, and he just needs space, maybe space to be with OW. And I need to not have his affair in my face day in and day out. <P>I guess if you sent a plan B letter, that is to let them know you love them and are waiting for them to end it with OW. Otherwise if you are plan A ing from a distance, I think you should be sending little notes and things to remind them that you still love them. <P>Looking forward to hearing others ideas on this<BR>Lora

Hi az allison,<P>I understand your confusion and hesitation about plan B. I never reached the point of having to seriously consider it, but K gave me some really good advice about it and explained plan B to me very clearly in a post he wrote to me in early September. After reading his post, I knew that it wasn't time for that in our situation.<P>I don't know that I brought firestorm back. What I actually did was to continue to love him and try to forgive him every step of the way. He NEVER wanted to lose me and our marriage, but he did want to have a relationship with another woman as well. If I had known the affair was continuing, I would have probably plan D'ed (as in divorce). The affair was near death when I discovered it, but I would not have tolerated its continuance. BUT I would have never stopped loving firestorm. <P>Lora's comment was valid. Firestorm had to decide to end the affair. NOTHING I did before (tears, pleas, threats, plan A) worked. In fact, the only thing that worked this time is prayer. I know that some people are nonbelievers, but I have seen the power of prayer in our situation. I truly believe that the dream firestorm had was an answer to a prayer that I make every night- that God will touch my husband's heart and show him the truth. That dream has had a huge impact on firestorm and is really leading him in the right direction.<P>As to whether plan B is right for you, do some reading on this site about it, especially K's posts on the subject. And also try Lori's (Lostva) posts. She never went to plan B, but I think she will tell you that neither plan A or plan B will bring back a spouse that doesn't want to come back. They will help YOU if you use them the right way.<P>We have a long way to go, and there is no guarantee that we will make it this time. But I can honestly say that firestorm is a changed man right now. I hope and pray that it lasts.<P>I also hope that some good things will happen for you soon, allison. If you are a believer, try this. For a long time I felt that my prayers for saving our marriage were not being answered. I told my mom that, and she told me to kneel and pray out loud. I have done that every day (many times each day) ever since and things started to get better for us after the very first time. We now pray together, and it has helped us so much.<P>Best wishes to everyone here,<P>Peppermint

allison,<P>I don't know if I really have and answer for the plan A or plan B concept. But, I do know that all afairs will end on their own. At some point in time a ghost will slip out of the darkness and whisper into your conscience, "DO WHAT IS RIGHT". <P>The love that peppermint has for me is what brought me back from the hell that I was in. What I began to realise was that I was not happy with what I was doing. I was, in fact, so unhappy and so mad at myself that I let all of those feelings affect everyone around me. I have read so many times on this board where a WS has said they didn't know what they wanted and they just needed time to think. This is true, but I believe it is the true person that is trapped in side trying to escape and that is the reason for all of the confusion and uncertainty. The grip and power of the evilness of an affair keeps that good person trapped inside and true love is what will help set them free.<P>At the same time, I was scared to death that because of my actions, I was going to lose the one person that means more to me than anyone in the world. I hid behind deception and lies to try and save myself and save my marriage. All this did was throw another wall around myself. It cut me off from everything that was good in my life. It suffocated, cut, and scared my heart and soul. THIS is what kept me from rebuilding my marriage with peppermint after the first discovery. <P>I have struggled to rid myself of the grips of evil, but evil is very powerful and deceiving. It will tell you on the surface that you are happy and this is right, but, like drugs, it is temporary. Love, true love, is the real key to happiness in a relationship. Inside of all of us that true love is waiting to be tapped.<P>Maybe in what I have said here there is an answer to the plan A concept, I don't know. To you Allison, and all here, one big hug;<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Thanks for taking the time to read, post and help. Peppermints hand pulled me out of the pit, but everyone here helped me to stand up straight. All of us should search our hearts for the answer to tell us what is right. Our eyes, ears, and minds will deceive us, but our hearts will never let us down. The devil can speak but he cannot love.......................fs<p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited October 14, 2000).]

Dear Az,<BR>Everyone's circumstances are a little different.Firestorm says's he had the affair because of his ego.I am wondering what his <BR>love bank was for Peppermint during his affair.Did you still feel that you loved her firestorm? <P>I have planned B ,<BR>because I could no longer take the intense emotional pain of having contact with spouse.(He had moved out and is living with internet "friend".)<P>I have tried to casually email him,but he does not respond.In fact he avoids me like the plague.He uses kids as messengers.<P>The difference between my situation and your situation is that my H had the affair not because of his ego,but because he was lonely.<BR>Also H had stopped loving me,I am sure that <BR>I was deeply in the red with love deposits.<BR>So, how do I climb out of my pit? H has this "wonderful" new person and her children in his life.H is moving as fast as he can for divorce.<P>I have become closer to God as I realize that he is the person who will never leave me.

Hey allison:<P>Years ago I worked for a family law attorney and saw a lot of women like you; women who wanted to save their marriages and their husbands took full advantage of that fact to s@@#w them over financially. Your H latest move with the checking account reminded of those women. Yuck. <P>Anyway, have no experience with Plan B but your situation seems to be slightly different. The worst case scenario: Your H has consulted a lawyer who has advised him not to divorce you just yet. Let's face it, it is to his advantage for things to stay just as they are. He is totaly in control financially which he would not be if he filed for divorce. He is dating and because he is technically still married he doesn't have to make a commitment to anyone else. And for the big ego boost he knows you are there still wanting him and the marriage.<BR>I kind of wonder whether or not he is manipulating financial matters so that when the divorce happens he comes out on top.<P>Anyway that's the worst case scenario. Only you really know how devious your H is capable of being. <P>He knows you want the marriage you've proven that. It seems in the past when you being strong and independent he moved closed to you so start doing that again. Let him initiate any contact and when he does be civil keep the conversation light. Keep him a little off balance. Be mysterious. Have you thought of joining a support group like Parents w/o Partners? <P>Your first priority should be protecting you and your kids financial interests. Don't let the fact that you want to reconcile keep you from doing that. Protecting yourself legally/financially is not a LB. <P>

Hi AZAllison -<P>This is all so hard and confusing...not only what we go through with our spouses, but what we go through within our own minds as we try to figure out what to do......<P>Here're some BIG HUGS for you (and you too, Lora!!) - they are not much but are all I can offer over this wire!!!<P>I have followed along with you....I watched you struggle and work so hard to "get it" (remember?) and you almost had it....then WHAM!!! Things happened to move you in another direction.....THat's OK....there is a reason for it somewhere. Perhaps leading you to try it another way so there is no doubt about "what if" I went another route. Now you have done that.....so you know!<P>Which way do you feel more comfortable with? Which avenue is the closest to enabling you to feel good about YOU?<P>As you know, I have planned A'd this whole time with my WAD....did it make him stop his behavior? NO!! Would Plan B have? I don't know, but highly doubt it!!! Why? Because HE WAS NOT READY...<P>Plan A or B is mostly for me.....not him!! If I had lost love for him, I would have implemented it.....I didn't lose love. I did lose some respect, I did hurt, I did want it "gone" and far away from me. But, I did not want HIM gone and far away from me. How could I? I love him......I want him in my life in whatever way God intends. I won't push for a non-relationship when I want one!!<P>Being angry, trying to protect or avoid your pain, or attempting to make them do something is NOT the reason for Plan B. Not only will it not work in the longrun if those are the motivations, it is very damaging to YOU.....you HAVE to feel the pain. You must transition through it - not around it. That is the only truly healthy way to do it.<P>Losing love means you are feeling indifferent. It is not closing your feelings off by no contact or projecting your feelings onto someone else. Those will come back to haunt you. <P>I don't think that you are losing love. I think that you have lost faith and have gotten your mind muttled with confusion. Try to get back to the place where you know what you want and you get strong again by acting true to your feelings.......<P>The very best thing that I did throughout this nightmare was to remain true to what I want. I can live through anything because of that. I can look in the mirror and my memories and not have to say "what if"......I could not play a game of "try this" or "try that". It just didn't feel right. If it doesn't feel right, it usually is not what you should be doing!!!<P>Just some food for thought.....I am not around too much, but I do try to keep up with you......We all support you in your decision and want what is best and "true" for your own peace of mind.<P>More BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>

I have agonized in the same way that you are doing now. And the most frustrating part for me is that I will never know what effect Plan B done correctly would have had, since my husband has gotten the jump on me once again and has not called or contacted me in any way since I gave him the letter (not a Plan B letter, but a letter talking about how much I believe in our marriage). I am debating at this point whether or not a Plan B letter would be too silly or if it would be at all effective.<P>I will say what was said to me over and over again, and which I was finally willing to believe just before contact was broken (tomorrow will be 3 weeks): Some people (and I believe it is likely more men than women) are content to have us "hanging" there waiting for them ... knowing that we love them and knowing that we are waiting IS a real ego booster. Plan A can lull us into believing that it is the only way - but even Dr. Harley in SAA states clearly that Plan A is rarely effective in and of itself - Plan B is what makes it work. Plan A establishes that we can and do forgive, we can and do change, we offer them a safe and loving environment in the marriage. But that can backfire on us eventually when they begin to believe that we will ALWAYS be there, no matter what they do - and they choose to continue their affair(s). That is when Plan B is the best choice. So far, they know that we do love them and want to remain married to them. Plan B then holds them accountable: tells them that they cannot have the best of both worlds... they cannot have their cake and eat it too. Plan B shows them what life is like wihtout us in it - forces them to rely on the OP to meet ALL of their emotional needs - something of which the "typical" slug like OW is NOT capable. Plan B forces them to miss us FINALLY - especially effective if we have done an effective Plan A.<P>And, for us, going to Plan B after a good Plan A the benefit is knowing we did everything we could do to make it work, and giving us the opportunity to make a life for ourselves in case the WS remains brain dead and stays with the OP. If we have Plan A'd effectively, our spouse knows that we can meet their emotional needs, that we are willing and flexible enough to work on the marriage by working on ourselves, and that we do truly forgive them... we can do no more than what we have done.<P>While I have resisted Plan B for a long time, I do recognize its potential for being that shock needed to bring the WS to their senses. With a good Plan B letter, the WS knows exactly what the story is ... and that there is a door still open to them under the right circumstances.<P>Hope this helps.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Plan B works. That's all I have to say.<P>After the first EMA discovery, I Plan A'd like crazy. But ... after "busting" my H with the OW a second time, out he went. Not with anger, but with resolve. He knew that I meant business. Within a month, the OW was kaput and he was back living in our home, and he was working with me. It's still not all roses and chocolates between us, but I have checked his cell phone records and credit card receipts, and have accounted for his time. If he is seeing her, he must be Superman, lol! Sometimes you have to draw the line in the sand - not beligerantly and arrogantly, but calmly, with firm resolve. By showing your respect for yourself, you are giving your spouse a model to work with - you are showing them how you want and need to be treated. Personally, I find that a lot of people Plan A for far too long, without a deadline for moving into Plan B. It's tough, but it must be done.<P>belld

alone1,<P>You asked the question did I still love peppermint during the affair. As crazy as this may sound for someone who was in an affair, yes I did. I was not out looking for a soulmate, a lover, or someone to make me feel loved. I had all of that at home. As I have learned through counseling, I am a rescuer and "addicted" to that feeling of helping. This lure is probably the main reason that I was attracted to the affair in the first place. <P>I had known the OW for 14+ years and never had any feelings for her before. It was not until she began to come to me and talk about her problems in her marriage that I began to stray. This attraction caused me to lose good judgment and clouded reality quite a bit. I never quit loving peppermint, but because of the resentment I built up for the hate I had for myself, I became a hateful person. I was treating everyone with disrespect. Had it not been for the strong love that peppermint has for me and I have for her, I would be a lonely and broken man now. That love is what pulled me out in I know that.<P>......fs

Dear FS,<BR>Thanks for answering my question.I beleive my H is a "rescuer" too.OW was divorcing an alcoholic at the time,and I beleive he was abusive too.OC has medical problems.And at the beginning of this affaif OW had a low paying job.BTW OW has been married three times.<BR>I am happy that you life has turned around for you and Peppermint.<BR>God bless you both. Beth<BR>

Allison,<P>I know how you feel about the plan B being so confusing. I was always just a little bit skeptical about crossing that line. So I pretty much stayed with a Cathy adaptation of plan A. I'm just too darn hormonal to stay on Harley's plan A, I would slip alot and also, I thought my H would see this "new" behavior and attitude as manipulating. Manipulation, he despised. I think the attitude changes and the letting go of the fear that he wouldn't come back(Terrorizing) was extremely helpful to us.<P>I could see it is my H's behavior that he was so confused and really deep in his heart didn't want this OW for the rest of his life. He kept coming and going, trying to make a decision. He finally realized he couldn't make that decision until he completely let her go. He had to be the one to end it, regardless of how much I did to protest the A and the OW or support our marriage.<P>I never went into plan B because I knew that would end our marriage. I was very afraid plan B would give him the message that I didn't care any longer and I had given up. Even though, he was "having his cake and eating it too", I still showed him my love and support, letting him know I knew he was confused and feeling guilty, reassuring him that we could work through this if he decided to come back.<P>After he made his decision, I'm more than sure he has looked back a few times and wondered if he made the right choice, especially when I get on the soapbox. <P>We had to deal with another love affair and that is alcohol... I call it Big Al. He has not had a drop to drink in 6 weeks. I am more proud of this than of his dropping the OW. Big Al, had so much influence in his life, and I'm positive Big Al, had alot to do with the A.<P>Executing Plan B would have been most difficult for me to carry out. At this point, I am glad I didn't give him the letter I had written, not so long ago. After a DUI incidence that shook him down to reality, he knew it was time to change his life. I thank God everyday for this... We moved on from OW, but I knew we would never truly have the marriage we deserve until Big Al was gone too.<P>Only you know your H better than anyone else tberefore, only you will know whether or not you should do plan B. To me, it was a scary, and final move to make. I believe my H knew there would come a day that I would not be there reaching out to him any longer.<BR>He would have been absolutely correct for I was fast approaching that day. <P>He is here, we are together. The other night I had tears in my eyes, as we went to bed, I told him the tears were happy tears because I felt love from him that I hadn't felt in a very, very long time. I feel so connected to him now, a connection I had always hoped we would have together, and it has nothing to do with sex!, which is a good feeling.<P>Good luck to you, I know this is so confusing and frustrating. I hope it will all clear for you very soon. Do what you feel is right for your circumstances, if it means showing love and support, then do that! You don't have to do plan B just because it's written in the book. Do your own plan if need be, use the book as a tool to guide you with your own decision.<P>Cathy<P><BR>

Allison-<BR>I don't want to give you any advice here because you need to do what's right for you, what you feel best about. I would like to share something Steve Harley said to me that really made sense to me. <P>Plan A is extremely important because whatever decisions spouses make regarding the future of the relationship is based on the track record established during the marriage. The longer you can perform a good Plan A (Steve said nearly perfect is the goal), the more likely it will be that the spouse may believe that things could be different. You can't change your previous track record, but you can make changes now.<P>Part of what Steve wanted me to do is fill out the lovebuster questionnaire from my H's point of view. Surprisingly, H agreed to help me do it. Actually, I read the questions to him and he answered, I wrote the answers on the form. I was shocked to say the least. I really had no idea about all of behaviors that he saw as LB. Another interesting point- I thought I had been eliminating these for about 18 months or so. And the ones I knew I was doing, I know I eliminated. But, my H said that things have really changed since D-day, which was only 6 or so weeks ago. So I had not done a good enough job of eliminating LB until that time for him to think I could handle things any differently than I had in the past. And from the looks of the questionnaire, he was pretty unhappy with me. AND, I managed to get through this whole questionnaire without LB about his answers!!! H was pretty impressed with that.<P>Do I remember that your H is still calling you at work every day? I do understand that this is probably miserable for you if you are trying to Plan B. I don't know, it's all very confusing. For me, I will continue to Plan A until I can't any more. I really need to try and show my H that we can be different than we were. When the time comes (hopefully it never will), I think I will need to do a complete Plan B- no contact at all if I can figure out how to do it with kids.

I think Plan B is the best option if you did a good Plan A. If you did a good Plan A, the WS KNOWS that there is love and forgiveness there. If you wrote the Plan B letter, you've explained why you can't go on exposing yourself to hurt and that this is the best way of preserving the love.<P>I Plan A'ed. (I'm a good Plan A-er). I Plan B'ed, though not very well. My STBX has a way of "needing me" and drawing me back into conversation and things. We mutually decided to split and things were going along fine. I had forgiven him and things didn't bother me like they had before. I was happy to have our friendship and glad that we could still be there for each other. <P>Then I woke up. <P>It just dawned on me one day that he was using me, still lying to me about the OW, lying to her about me, and manipulating me to get a better settlement, and that he just truly did not care about me. I decided I didn't want to live like that anymore and started a real Plan B. Not to get him back. Not to "preserve good feelngs". But because I didn't care anymore to be exposed to his lies and filth. I don't need friends like that.<P>Now he's calling constantly and coming by all the time, checking up on me. I don't know if he is just trying to feel the comfort of knowing he is a stud who has a stable of women he can always count on, or if he has any feelings of regret, or what. I am sure he is in a tailspin. We get disoriented when the known and predictable suddenly changes on us. But you know what? I don't care. <P>I waited too long to Plan B. If your goal is to restore your marriage, follow the Plan a/b strategy. I waited until I no longer cared and there was nothing to save to do a real Plan B. <P>It's a risk. It may be that you lose your spouse, but it's better to be strong, have a sense that you did your best, and still have love in your heart than to either pine away for something lost forever or turn away in disgust like I have. <P>I wish that it didn't end this way. I have love in my heart and hope that the STBX turns his life around, but I have no respect, no desire for reconciliation, no good feelings for the years that we shared, and no tenderness towards him. That is sad.<P>I think Plan B is a wake up call for both people. You will both have the freedom to explore your innermost feelings and the courage to make final decisions after living this! I say when you are ready, do it and leave the rest to God.

popeye,<P>My story could have easily been yours. I didn't know about marriage builders while my H was seeing the OW. Once I read it and was fortunate enough to talk to Dr. Harley himself, a lightbulb went on in my head, and I realized: I should have been in Plan B mode for those six months he was living with her on and off. By grasping tighter and making demands, I only drove him more firmly into her arms. <P>My Plan B was dangerously one that was close to apathy. Had my H not come around when he did, it would have been over. I'm glad that didn't happen now, because we have rays of hope every now and then, and I do believe that with hard work, it will work out. But i still kick myself from time to time, knowing that there was another way that I could have saved myself from all of that pain.<P>belld

Belld,<P>Thanks for posting and sharing your success! I think it gives people who are contemplating Plan B hope. <P>All,<BR>I know the fear of letting go because letting go could mean losing, but what are you really losing? You're losing the lies, the lost hope, the uncertainty. Even if it doesn't end up the way we hope, we haven't lost at all. I think that is beauty of the plan! I've been through the A and the B and have come through a believer. Follow the rules and let them work for you!