Wanted to address peppermint's mention of the anger this time as I felt the same way.<P>Perhaps w/the first discovery, the betrayed goes through (and perhaps hovers) w/in the shock and denial phases longer before reaching the anger phase. I, mean, typically, our self-esteem is shred to pieces. The depression, the overwhelming emotions, etc. There is anger but it seems that the shock and denial phases last a bit longer.<P>Second time around, at least in my case, I breezed right through the shock and denial phase. The shock and denial the second time around was about as much as the initial anger the first time. (make sense?)<P>The GOOD part about this is that "healthy" anger helps one to be more productive. We can realize that the strategy must change and we must take different steps to protect ourselves and our children while maintaining our own dignity and values. <P>For me, it was actually empowering in that I finally accepted, not the affairs, but the vision of life w/o him. Hadn't done that after first discovery. Sure, I toyed w/the idea. But, I also accepted my responsiblity in the breakdown of the marriage and tried to work on my wrongs, all with the intent of staying together. After I had done all of the work and he STILL went and cheated again, I realized that much, if not most, of the problem lie within him and therefore, the immediate move into anger.<P>Acceptance was more immediate also. Again, not acceptance of affairs, but acceptance that there is only so much I, alone, can do. I must do for me and my children as he refuses to recognize his issues and therefore seek any help.<P>Just some food for thought,<BR>Englightened<P>

Wassi,<BR>I forgot to thank you for saying I've gained in wisdom. Any wisdom I have was hard earned through pain & many mistakes...so if I'm very wise, I've really screwed up to get there!<P>There was a period last Feb - Mar in the midst of our last separation, when I discovered my H writing an email to the OW (after no-contact for 4 months--their relationship was very much stop and start for the previous 18 months) when all feeling for him drained away. I called him numerous bad names and... MEANT THEM. No real desire to apologize either. <P>Now, I have apologized, months later with real regret & remorse. But at the time it felt like a straw bale flung onto an already broken camel's back.<P>Anyway, since my virulent and continuing anger didn't fit with the 18 month Plan A (sometimes done excellently, but with periods of crappiness) & Power of a Praying Woman I had been until the separation, I'm not sure if I posted much about it, I think I said my lovebank was drained, when what I could have said was that my heart had become stone-cold hard. I recall FHL saying to Guard something like I didn't seem like Lor and TNT saying she'd never seen me so stubborn (you both also have said a million other things that were wonderful and kept me on task & connected, I'm not complaining, I needed to know that my faltering was apparent.) <P>Guard would read my posts to other people & about us and ask why, if I knew the right thing to do--restore our marriage--why I wasn't moving in that direction?<P>I've described the way I felt as having had a floor sander run over every inch of my skin and through the center of my chest. I felt like my footprints were bloody. I could not bear the thought of one more betrayal...and he was out of the house by his own choice so I didn't have to kick him out, I just kept him out.<P>We all have those moments where we cry "enough". Some of us have many, many moments of deep, continuing betrayal over long periods of months & years, we're devastated with wounds that seem impossible to heal.<P>And...the thing was, no matter how I felt, or what I did to change myself into a better person, a better partner, it was up to Guard to make his half work.<P>Honestly, looking back these few months, with as settled, companionable & loving as we are now, I don't know how we got here. I don't know who Guard was from winter 98 to this spring. I don't know who I was from Jan to Aug this year.<P>I see so much as a flicker of his bad-brain expression and within me doors slam and lock. But in the process of mutual forgiveness and the MB 4 rules of successful marriage, Guard has the key to those locks.<P>Gosh, where am I going with this? I think in a way you never "get it back". But life is change and hopefully growth. Those 2 years of hell, if they had not been hell, they still would have passed in some way. And they wouldn't have been trouble-free. I am wiser. My husband is wiser. We know who we don't want to be--lovebustin', unfaithful fools. It's just making sure we don't re-build our marriage on top of the rubble, the rubble has to be cleared, and some of it is usable material. The crazy, young love from college...we don't want to get rid of that, or our love for our children & families, or our faith, or work ethic, the chemistry/attraction is still there. We know we don't live happily without each other--even when we found it difficult to live with each other. Those things go back into the re-built marriage. The bad behavior, lies, infidelity, disloyalty, abandonment do not.<P>For us, it has to become a new, optimal, covenant marriage, not a continuation of something that was not fully working and led to unfulfilled needs and bad choices.<P>Wassi, you've been at this longer than most of us. The reason you have been able to do that is where you find your strength.

Hello my friends<BR>Thank you for so much continued support. I still have no idea where I'm going but I have found some of that peace that Sir HA was talking about.<BR>The peace of knowing that I wasn't crazy...knowing that there is nothing more that I can do...acceptance of the fact that my H may always be a liar. I think the last one is important. For so long I hoped that he would get the concept of honesty. He had enough examples of how much more the lies hurt than any other thing. I guess he doesn't want to get it. Maybe it's a control thing, maybe it's stubborness, maybe it's because he would rather I not be right. Who knows. I am just learning to accept that I probably will never have honesty here.<P>ceecee<BR>Thank you for all your kindness, and for the addy. I will probably get to my e-mail when I have got myself together a bit. My pompoms are drooping. I've missed you.<P>schizzo<BR>My b-day is going to include only me. I've made plans to spend it on my own. I have no interest in sitting around here waiting for attention. Too much of my life has been spent like that. It is the big 40 after all. Time for my midlife crisis? <P>Samantha<BR>My forever optimist. <BR>I'm doing my best. Thank you for always being there.<P>liz<BR>I'm so sorry. I feel very much the same. I thought we were really getting somewhere. Now it has been turned iinto nothing but lies. After the first lie it becomes a landslide. every minute is a lie.<P>DI<BR>Of course I remember you. I'm so glad I helped in some way. I really did worry about you. I think of you often. Every time I describe the feeling inside of me, in fact.<BR>How are you?<BR>Thank you for posting. I remember well the problems you had with the phone bills. I still say I am the queen of them. Especially after this.<BR>Let us know how you are.<P>peppermint<BR>You are helping very much. My H e-mailed firestorm last night. I hope it got through. I don't know what he wrote but I do know it took a very long time to put his words down.<BR>I am so sorry that you have to keep finding these things. Honestly...I think that it is very likely that in the confusion and lies, they do not know what is true sometimes, when this happened..etc.<BR>I think the reason this time hurt so much more is because it is the fifth go around. I finally counted. Since the original d-day of the affair( that doesn't count the previous 7 years of lies and "friendship") I have been shocked like this 4 more times. It has been 16 months since the last discovery. I guess a part of me really wanted to believe that with time this really would get better. Now I am just toatally defeated. How do I start over from this when another 16 months has been totally nullified? I just don't see any place for hope. I know the affair was not resumed. But the lies never ended. how many times I have said to him "I don't want to wake up 6 years from now and find out you have been talking to her all along".<BR>So do we start this game again?<P>Bill<BR>You made me smile again. Have a good weekend and thank you!<P>LAD<BR>Thank you for thinking of me. The great part of this forum is that these posts can help many people. Hang in there <P>Enlightened<BR>I do remember the second time around. It was very much like you describe. This time there is just nothing. Nothing but pain. There is no fight, no anger...nothing in me but defeat. If I look past today...I ask myself how anything can get better. How will I ever be safe? Do I care?<BR>I don't know the answers.<P>Lor<BR>Once again thank you for the wisdom. <BR>When you talk about "getting it back" I try to remember what there is to get back. This has gone on so long that I have become this. I'm not sure there was anything before this and if there can ever be anything but this here. I don't want to be this anymore. I don't know if there is anything to rebuild and I know I haven't got anything to give. Not with this always being the end result.<P>Oops...I'm starting to get pessimistic. I'll shut up now.<BR>Loveya all.<BR>

Wassi,<P>I posted this reply on the other thread but I decided I would post it here also because the other one is way too long. Peppermint is right about one thing. I threw down the road map of life and thought I could find my own way. Now I am waiting for someone to show me where it is. There is the problem. It is my responsibility to find it.<P>I got the e-mail from your H this morning. It was nice to hear from him but I am so sad for the reasons we all are here. Our situations do sound so familiar it is unreal. My reply back was rather long, but I hope that I have helped in some way. I really think he is a good man inside and maybe he sees that it is time for it to come out. I really believe he has an incredible wife, and yes, he sees that also. It is going to be very hard for him to admit that he was weak and had many shortcomings. I think he has that strength in him to do so. He does have someone here, in me, that is going through the same thing.<P>I wish you guys the very best in life and let him know that I will be here if he needs to talk to me or ask any questions. I am not an expert on marriage by any means, but I do understand him and where he is coming from. <P>My prayers and warmest regards to you both<BR>.............fs<P><p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited October 20, 2000).]

firestorm<BR>Thank you. My H will be gone most of today so won't get your e-mail till late tonight. Thank you for caring and wanting to help. Like I said...I have no idea what was in his E to you but I do think that you are the first person he has actually talked to about this. He has talked to his friends but they don't give advice.<P>I have to tell you...I don't have much hope of fixing this right now. I don't believe that my H will really do anything to compensate for this, to stop this. I don't believe that he will ever understand the concept of honesty. With me or himself. I don't believe in anything at this moment.<P>I do thank you though. I'm glad he finally has someone to talk to. It seems that everything I have said in the last two years was in the wrong language. Sorry...bitterness coming out just a little. Didn't mean it to.

Just checking on you....<P>Stay strong, ok. This could turn out to be just what you both needed to finally put this mess to bed.<P>Love you.<P>Lori

Wassi,<P>I really do understand your H. Slowly but surely I am begining to understand the pain that you, peppermint, and all of the betrayed are going through. I honestly don't think I could handle it like you and peppermint are doing. Hang in there, I think we all can do this together.<P>......fs<p>[This message has been edited by firestorm (edited October 20, 2000).]

Lori<BR>I really am okay. Thanks for caring.<P>firestorm<BR>Thanks for the pep talk...for trying to give me some hope.<BR>My money is on you and peppermint because I think you really want to DO something.

Wassi,<P>My money is on you because I thought you guys could. Now I know you can.<P>....fs

Wassi, hon I amheading out the door to go to my Uncles funeral and won't be home untill later tonight . But I wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. <P>Firestorm, you are doing a wonderful thing.<BR>God bless you for trying to help Wassi and her h.<BR>

afternoon wassi,<BR>I am glad to read that you are feeling much more positive about yourself. <BR>I vote for the detach method at this point. Your focus moves from the marriage to the family and to yourself. <BR>Maybe he can see the value of truth sometime, but it is not your job to show him. YOu have been trying to get him to see the value of truth, honesty, love, for a long time. Not sure what will get him to see it, but it is not your responsibility to show him anymore. <BR>Some may think I am being very hard/cold here, and I am!!! I know you took on the job to help him change, show him the right way, and the disappointment is SO great. I am not at all sure it is wise to set ourselves up for further disappointment from our spouses.<BR>There is a point where we have to protect what we have left of our minds! cl

firestorm<BR>You are doing a wonderful thing. I am not very optimistic at this point but I reaaly do thank you.<P>Deb<BR>Take care and don't worry about me. I have a lot of things to straighten out in my head.<P>cl<BR>You wrote pretty much what I've been thinking. Thanks for the reinforcement.<P>Time to disappear for a while I think.