Ok, FHL, until he got to the meatloaf, it sounded like me too! Maybe we are all too nice! <P>dumone - I second everything my dear friend FHL wrote. If you haven't sent a no contact LETTER, I still recommend it.<P>I tried to search for mine, but it is only bringing up my posts through June. Don't know if I maxed it out or if something happened to the archives.<P>Ah, found it...<P>OW,<P>I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children I have come to realize that I must never see, or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Cindy did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay Cindy for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness.<P>I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me.<P>I have made Cindy fully aware of the relationship, and she has read all the emails and chats we have had. There is virtually no detail of our relationship (yours and mine) that she is not aware of.<P>Please respect my desire to end our relationship, in its totality. Please know that any further attempts to establish contact will be monitored by Cindy who has access to all my email accounts, including passwords. I have committed to Cindy that I will not allow any phone contact to occur.<P>Signed, h (sent by email with cc to me)<P>This was almost verbatim from the book SAA and you are free to use it. I don't think we could have written anything half as good.<P>

Ya know through all this I hoped that maybe I could help someone else either prevent or help thru an incident like this...I cant do that with you 2 BUT I think I can give you my perspective on what you both commented on...ME decribing YOU thru my wife. I dont know your situations or the condition of your marriages when the A happened, probably the same as mine...and you didnt see it coming just like my wife. I believe that being too nice is not a fault, I believe that if the EN are not being met THAT IS the catylyst for the A. Its hard but we have to continually evaluate the relationship and intimacy to prevent this kinda thing. We get caught up in life and bills and work and house and kids and we forget or put our spouses on the lower end of the priority list. NO you ladies are not being too nice, we men are lucky to have wives like you its just a shame that it takes a kick in the teeth like this to see it. Not that my wife is not at fault for letting our relationship fall down as well, we BOTH accept blame for that, but she is not the one who went to someone else...I am.<P><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

OK...top priority is no contact, how that gets down can be debated.<P>I think what are discounting is the finality a letter like Cindy posted can give an affair. I don't know what you wrote the first time, but the tone of this letter puts the priority on the marriage.<P>Personal feelings about the affair partner is not even mentioned. It paints the H and wife as a team.<P>It does not leave the idea of love tragically frozen in time, left only to do the "right thing".<P>And right now, it would be 90% for you! I think schizzo has posted one of the reasons she thinks that H did not pursue contact post letter was to save face. The wording was such that he felt he would have looked silly breaking his own agreement.<P>Give it some thought.<P>And the needs thing? You know, I absolutely believe we should discover, define and meet each other's needs...and of course revisit and rework as necessary.<P>I also am happy to take 50% of the responsibility for the vunerability of our marriage, but 0% for my H's actions.<P>Sure there were things I should have been doing better (and would have if I had known a need was lacking or contributing to dissatisfaction). Although my H had some justifications that he used after he met her, he says now I had nothing to do with it. He won't even let me take 50% responsibility for the vunerability. I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.<P>My point is that when we feel our needs are being met and we are feeling dissatisfied, in most cases, the betrayer was not in fact GIVING enough to the relationship, and therefore not getting enough as well.

"My point is that when we feel our needs are being met and we are feeling dissatisfied, in most cases, the betrayer was not in fact GIVING enough to the relationship, and therefore not getting enough as well."<P><BR>Good morning FHL! I dont understand this...I havent read the book yet(its on its way)could we be dissatisfied if our need ARE being met?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited October 26, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I believe that being too nice is not a fault, I believe that if the EN are not being met THAT IS the catalyst for the A.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Okay, my curiosity is now peeked...<P>Judging from your description of your loving/attentive wife, I'm curious to know WHAT EN did you feel was missing from your marriage?<P>And, did you verbalize this particular need to your wife? If so, how many times would you say you discussed this topic? And, how/why do you believe she *missed the mark*??? <P>As much as I love the Harley Principles, the Harley Theory (that an affair most likely stems from unmet needs) doesn't sit that well with me--NEVER HAS. Of course, this IS NOT the only theory out there regarding why affairs take place. And, while I agree that unmet needs CAN CERTAINLY lead to the demise of a marriage...<B>I don't believe that this alone causes a spouse to be unfaithful.</B> And, moreover, I think it's UNFAIR for a WS to use this as an *excuse* for the affair--to me, it's kinda like saying, "Yeah, I know it was wrong, but YOU WEREN'T MEETING MY NEEDS..." <HUGE SIGH!><P>Whatever happened to the *in-between* step...the one where the H tells the wife she needs to actively LISTEN to his needs, and actively ATTEMPT to meet his needs...or the H feels as though he has no option left but to seek a separation/divorce (BEFORE GETTING NEEDS MET BY SOMEONE ELSE?????)<P>BTW, I think (and I hope I don't offend FHL) that this is WHERE her statement *comes* from when she speaks of WS NOT DOING ENOUGH FOR THEMSELVES AND/OR THEIR MARRIAGE.<P>And, for the record, my meatloaf is AWESOME! And I make a MEAN peanutbutter pie .<P>Peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited October 26, 2000).]

Hi Marie...I have to go to a meeting in 15 min so if I dont answer this with all I want to say I will continue it later, I just wanted to get something down to let you know that I read your post... she did/does not like confrontation of any kind, <p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

My suggestion...look at the title of your post. Typical affair, that about says it all. From all that I have read and read and read they are all pretty typical. They all have the same element of self pity and selfishness to start with and then you get the 'soulmate' line where the two have convinced themselves how right they are together. And of course the secrecy, two against the world type thing. But once out in the open it is not so pretty anymore.<P>Just keep reading that word 'typical' and you will know the right thing to do.<P>Will stop with that or I'm afraid I will say some not too nice things to someone who sounds like they ARE trying to clear up the mess they have made.<P>PS..FHL..I copied your post and if brave enough will share it with H someday. You summed things up pretty well.<P>Marie...as usual you are on the mark

OK...I don't want you to think I am knocking the Harley methods, I am not, but over the course of almost two years, I have read a few books and learned from real life stories on this board, so my own conclusions are a hybrid of many sources.<P>I can't rememember where I read, in fact, it may have been another poster that initially read it, but it stuck with me and generally (which means of course not in all cases) seems to have some truth. The partner "giving" less in a marriage is the more likely of the two to have the affair. I have also read that the less custodial parent is more likely to have the affair. I think often when we feel we are not GETTING enough, if we look back a bit, we see we stopped GIVING. I always thought about the bible verse that says that in giving we receive.<P>So what I am suggesting, that if you could objectively disect your marriage just before your affair (which of course you can't) an objective party might find that it was your wife whose needs were met less in the marriage than yours.<P>Of course there is the chicken and the egg thing. If in fact you ceased meeting needs or being emotionally invested in your marriage, you could say it was because your needs were not met first. And of course you get go in a vicious circle trying to go back and figure it out. And that is not the point. The point is for you to just stop and think if this could be true.<P>Now my H and I were conflict avoiders. I am less of one, now. I was super sensitive to anything critical from my H and although he was never mean, he didn't learn too much tact along the way, either. I probably taught him to keep his mouth shut early in the marriage, but I'm guessing as much as ten years before the affair I learned new better behaviors, but I think the pattern was established for my H. So in this short weird period of time when his dissatisfaction mushroomed (and nothing much had changed), he did not share his feelings.<P>Have you ever done the Meyer-Briggs personality test? Actually there is a test called the Keirsey either temperment or character sorter (can't remember which one) at <A HREF="http://www.personality.com?" TARGET=_blank>www.personality.com?</A> I bet your wife would be close to Cindy and I my personalities. My H is about as different as you could get in personality. Sometimes it helps to understand the different types and how they interact. I think if my H and I would have read our descriptions and interactions much earlier, we could have communicated more effectively. I am not saying being a conflict avoider is good, I am just saying you might think about her differently if you understand the dynamics of her personality and she understands yours.<P>Now I am getting off track. The health/attractiveness need. Honestly it is not a big one for my H, although it is important to him that I am active, which I am. Right now I am trying to lose a few pounds, it is the first time it is difficult (have been on two rounds of steroids for contact dermatitis). I notice that now that I am 40, it is just not as easy. Up until now I have always looked "better" than average with no real effort. Now it takes effort. I am not knocking your need for an attractive spouse, but is it really that bad or do you perceive your peers have more attractive spouse's than you do? Also how long has this been an issue?<P>I think you said in a previous post that after you were in contact with this OW, you justified it by finding dissatisfaction with your marriage. My H sees where he clearly did that, in hindsight, although he did not see it for months. First he brought up sexual fequency, which I agree was lacking in comparison to our first years of marriage, but he couldn't disagree he was 50% of that problem, I didn't refuse him. Then when pressed, he said I never learned to shut the vertical blinds properly and I left too many lights on. Of course that doesn't compare to some, like Chris's wife who could only tell him that he bought Pepsi instead of Coke and didn't like his bran muffins.<P>Not to sound disrespectful, but when you are where you are now in your affair timeline, you may think differently than before you stumbled and after you are in recovery.<P>My H describes it as looking back and watching another person.<P>Could it be that when you look at your life as a whole, you started to think differently about it? I mean for the most part thing have been pretty much the same since kids, but at some point you started feeling dissatisfied, stressed, like you were missing out? Then when you started looking at your marriage with this new filter, man those unmet needs started jumping out at you. You started losing respect for your marriage and your wife. Then you ran into opportunity and everything mushroomed. Is that how it happened?<P>I guess my big point of this monster is, when you stand back, unmet needs might have been a contributing factor, but it is my belief that it is more about how someone starts thinking differently about his situation and breeds and nutures discontent, disrespect and dissatisfaction and at the same time stops GIVING emotionally to the relationship.<P>Gotta go... <P>

FHL...you scare me!! I said that I would get back to Marie and finish trying to convey what happened and that you were right that it was not only EN not being met that lead to the A...your words:<P>"Could it be that when you look at your life as a whole, you started to think differently about it? I mean for the most part thing have been pretty much the same since kids, but at some point you started feeling dissatisfied, stressed, like you were missing out? Then when you started looking at your marriage with this new filter, man those unmet needs started jumping out at you. You started losing respect for your marriage and your wife. Then you ran into opportunity and everything mushroomed. Is that how it happened?"<P>hit the nail on the head...I could not have desribed it better the contributing factors. My age, 39 at the time I know had a lot to do with it as well. I was the less custodial parent, only because we believed that my wife should be a full time mom, and I the bread winner, family as a units sake...as far as contributing less to the relationship...I will gladly take 50% of that and my wife willingly took 50%, I dont think I contributed less. I really believe that , like I said before, we neglected OUR relationship...not on purpose, we both got caught up in the business of raising a family, job, bills, kid, house, going in 3 directions at the same time, mandatory overtime to meet bills, etc. I will also admit, looking back that I took my wife for granted which I am not proud to say. Being caught up in this whirlwind of life it is easy to be vunerable. I am not making excuses ( victoria ) all I am doing is trying to see what happened (with the help of people like FHL) understand what happened, so I can change for the better which might incite change in my wife so that this never happens again. I am not proud of myself for what happened I let down alot of people, lost somethings that can not be retrieved, I will regret that till I die.<P><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Gee, I don't think I have ever scared anyone in my entire life! Then again it is gettin' pretty near Halloween <P>Oh my Marie, I think we are pretty much on the same page in many of our thoughts. Meat loaf? Peanut Butter Pie? You must be Martha! I wish I was Martha! But have you tried my beans? If I could link a post from last month from emotional needs forum about my H and my beans, I would, it was pretty funny.<P>Marie, how did your H's idea of what caused the affair evolve or devolve with space and time?<P>And Dumone, my H had turned 40 six weeks before his affair. Actually that period of time I remember well. I had given up a plush business trip and insisted the family go camping (not my fav.) at my H's special place. It was such a sweet wonderful time. There are even pictures and we are all hugging each other and look so happy. <P>Six weeks later a brazen hussy kissed him at a bar, then called him at work. It still makes my head spin.<P><p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited October 26, 2000).]

Dumone,<P>For me, it has been almost a year. I started typing part of my story, but it brings back to many painful memories, even to this day. My story is spread throughout the "read only" posts.<P>Anyway, I agree with FHL. As a BS, I began to share the blame for the affair because of his unmet needs. That hampered my healing, my saying to myself, "If only I had been better in bed, etc." For me too, it was infrequent, but not because I was unwilling.<P>It has taken much reading over a year to have a better understanding today. Which did come first: the chicken or the egg? He neglected me for years and now admits he is a workaholic. If he had given me even half the time he spent with these tramps, I would have thrived. That said, I am not bitter. Today, he IS giving of himself and reaping the bennies. He would sadly agree with what I wrote.<P>The other big question as a couple is how much to share. The Harleys say it is up to the betrayed spouse. You should tell her ANYTHING she wants to know. You said a large part was online. He had saved all their mails and chats, and I read ALL OF THEM. It was very painful, but it gave me much more insight into what was going on than him just telling me. After that, we deleted them.<P>For some reason, the chats showed up on another part of the hard drive and I reread part of them a few months ago. The pain was just as fresh as the first time.<P>I think most of us BS feel like Oh my Marie -why didn't they tell us they were so unhappy? For my h, it was also a crisis of confidence. But we learned this much later and from a poster here named Suse.<P>The more important question for you is - what can you do to make her feel loved again now? My h sat on the fence for so many months despite counselling with Jennifer Harley, reading the books, etc. He went through painful withdrawal and still did not want to make a real effort. He was sitting waiting for the in-loveness to happen to him, UNTIL ONE DAY HE REALIZED HE HAD TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. That is where, I too disagree with the Harleys.<P>How much you give may affect her balance in your love bank as much or more than how much she does for you. Please help protect her now. I did my self-image further damage trying to meet his need for a good looking spouse. I am fit and in shape, look good in a bikini, but I was trying to "compete" with every teenager we saw because of his affair with a 21 yr. old and his continued gawking at young girls. I would not put myself through that again for him or any other man!

Oh, could it be that your wife's "fault" for not staying fit (other than a legitimate thyroid problem) was that she always put everybody else first and pretty much ran out of time to focus on herself?<P>I am not saying you are being selfish for taking care of yourself, in fact, I made your wife's mistake many times and I am trying to correct that errant mind set.<P>I also sent the H and kids out for fun and recreation while I stayed home and caught up on cleaning. Since my H has a great need for recreational companionship, that was really dumb, too. It is not that I was ignoring a need, I was just trying to do the best I could in supporting everyone.<P>Balance is hard.

Hi FHL and Oh my Marie,<P>Two of my favorite people! No, I'm not Martha either. Though I have learned to make very good Pomodoro sauce and Colombian sudados (like a stew using meat or chicken, but much tastier).<P>I'll start a thread just to chat...<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>was that she always put everybody else first and pretty much ran out of time to focus on herself?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How is it that we all make this mistake? I literally lost myself for a few years there...

Ladies...its getting hard for me to keep up with you!! I have to tell you after reading all your postings about my wife and ME...I see just how little I knew about life and relationships...that I HAVE been selfish thru the years, and just how far I have to go. All that you ladies mentioned about myself and/or my wife came into play over the course of our marriage and subsequent problems. In defense of myself though...I used to do the shopping, the laundry AND I love to cook (none of you ladies could come close to my spagetti sauce OR my apple pie) the need for me to work overtime killed the cooking and shopping and I screwed up some clothes so she wont let me do the laundry anymore but all in all up until this past year I think I have done OK.<p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited October 26, 2000).]

Well...I'm a pretty darn good cook and would put my apple pie up against yours any day . Interesting though, my H bakes a mean pumpking pie at Thansgiving and he taught me how to make homemade biscuits (mine would put Martha to shame)! What is it with you guys and baking?

Baking?...I dont know, its kinda relaxing, fun, your creating something PLUS you get to eat it too!

Dumone,<P>To put the facts in a nutshell, you and your wife both did not nurture your relationship due to the usual pressures of life. It at least sounds like you feel as responsible for this as you feel your wife is. In other words, you don't feel like wife has ignored you or put you second, just got real busy and shared the mistake of not giving your married relationship more nuturing. Right?<P>But, the need you state that are not met by your wife are the need for an attractive spouse. So for with no assignment of reason or judgement, it is fair to say that your wife is overweight and/or out of shape. From the statement you made about giving her money for clothing, I am guessing she either does not dress in a manner you find attractive (more subjective of course, but still factual).<P>Your other issue does not fall exactly into one of Harley's needs, but you take issue with the manner in which you wife addresses and/or resolves problems in the relationship. Right?<P>I am not dismissing your needs and I absolutely believe they need to be addressed and resolved to you and your wife's satisfaction. So don't get too defensive, yet. OK?<P>Now let's look at how you view this issues. To paraphrase from previous posts, you said you told wife about her weight or inactivity and it did not go well. This also touches on your communication issue, but lets just look on how you view the reasons behind your wife's weight. I think you said she didn't have it in her to do something about it. In another post I think you said she had let herself go. (I probably should check this, but I think I'm close). <P>You might be absolutely right. She may have no interest in losing weight, and when you leave the door in the morning, she plunks herself down on the couch with a big ole box of chocolates and the remote. She is inactive and unattractive because she is lazy and she does not care. That would be the extreme. That certainly conjures up a negative picture of your wife. And if that is what you are thinking, then you will believe it and then act as if it were true.<P>Say instead your wife was so selfless that she spent every minute doing something for her family. She spent money on all of you and "made due" with what she had. Maybe her mother did the same and as a woman, she looks back on her childhood and admires her mother's sacrifice. Or maybe she had a self absorbed mom and she vowed she would be more selfless. Maybe she looks around and her peer group looks just about the same as her so she feels comfortable (no insult intended here, but we dress more casually at home then if we were in the business world). Maybe her weight problem was heavily influenced by her thyroid problem and it was not under her control.<P>Now the truth may lie somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, but do you think which one of these you believed would affect how you viewed your wife and how you treated her? She's in the same shape, either way, don't you think you might like her a little better and be more understanding if you thought the later extreme?<P>Same with communication. You said she swept things under the rug. You obviously thought your commmunication was better. Maybe it is. But if you saw the conflict avoider side of her as the flip side of her highly sensitive sweet and nice nature, would you be as critical? If you saw it as her defense mechanism to avoid pain, would you see it less as a way she shrugged off your issues?<P>These issues still need to be addressed, but if come at them in a positive manner instead of in the negative, don't you think it would be easier to tolerate the situation and easier to find solutions?<P>For instance, if you see your wife as selfless, if you give her permission and encouragement to be healthy, not out of the "you are not good enough" mindset, but out the idea that you love her so much you want her to be the best she can be and would help her make than happen, don't you think you might both get farther?<P>Just some thoughts.... <P>

Do you know you could be making $60-$100 an hour with a mind like yours??? I SWEAR YOUR A PHYCHOLOGIST!!!!<BR>On a more serious note, I cant thank God enough for leading me here and consequently to your wisdom...She is more the latter...almost completely the latter. You continually open my eyes, Thank You. DONT YOU EVER LEAVE HERE!!

I am not a professional, my personality type is labeled "The Healer", so maybe this is what I am called to do.<P>My sense of self was almost crushed when my H betrayed me. He was willing to change his ways and he is a wonderful man. I truly believe it was and out of character accident that has little chance of being repeated.<P>But it was pretty much up to me to pull myself up and fight my way back from that black pit I was thrown into. So I did. I read and I thought and I made changes.<P>People here literally saved my sanity in the beginning. I try to give back when I can.