<BR>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited October 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Oh Oh...my H is a ISTJ, which was labeled the guardian. Now YOU are scaring me.

<P>FHL- ME scare YOU?<BR>Victoria-My apple pie would win<BR><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Good Morning and congratulations! As a parent, the fun must really begin now I have a year before my oldest drives.<P>You know, dumone, it is better that you didn't have sex in the big picture.<P>Alledgedly my H didn't either. It took months for me to believe him, and since an affair is all about lies, I'd be surprised and saddened, but not totally shocked. He had more opportunity since he saw her about 10 times or so, but a few things he sad off handedly and a few things from his past and his personality tip the scales in the belief department. Ironically I think he knew he had to end it when she started pressuring him for sex. She was also trying to get him to leave his family and move in with her after knowing him a week. She said she wasn't used to having that kind (meaning no sex) effect on men. Did I mention she was a brazen hussy? Oh yeah, I think I did. See how this can still make my blood boil? <P>OK my point is, somewhere down the road, your wife will appreciate that you didn't have sex. But that detail can work against you if you let yourself believe that it wasn't really an affair or not that bad.<P>I think this is part of the reason my H could keep up contact after breaking the physical dates off with her. In his mind it wasn't "that bad" since he didn't have sex. Dangerous ground.<P>I'm a hard liner on this, but I believe you betrayed your marriage when you let someone into your mind and heart that didn't belong in your marriage. And you continue to betray your marriage until you uproot her and get her out of your heart.<P>If you draw a circle and put your family in it and think of the circumference of the circle as a shield, you need to get to a place where that OW is not only physically on the outside of the circle, but a place where excessive thoughts, mental images or smoldering feelings can get through the barrier. If you can get there, then your family is safe and your marriage will be protected.<P>If you allow thoughts like "it wasn't that bad" to seep through a crack, that protective barrier will erode.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...MY SON GOT HIS LICENSE!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Whooo Hoooo! My son got his Driver's License on October 13th...scary, huh? Now he has the knowledge to criticize my driving--just like everyone else .<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My apple pie would win...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>LOL...I made apple pie about two weeks ago...now, normally I PRIDE myself on my ability to make homemade pies...but this was too much-- My 16 year old son was just simply <B>RAVING</B> about *my* pie, "Oh mom, this is <B>THE BEST</B> apple pie you've ever made!"...ROTFLMAO...it was SARA LEE ...first time EVER I made a store bought pie!!! <Thanks, Hon! ><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>For all- I was driving home thinking about this thread...and some of the comments to me I think were made with the premise, partially my fault because I had put down that I had a EA/PA, let me clear the air...<I>I did not have sex with the OW.</I><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Are you Bill? Bill Clinton? So, just kidding. However, I do have a question-- Why do men (OK, some men) assume that *certain* types of physical contact are "okay"...while others are "taboo"??? I don't get this! IMHO, it's not so much whether or not you touched physically, as much as it is that you touched each other's minds/hearts...YOU CHOSE to PUT ANOTHER WOMAN ABOVE YOUR WIFE...to HONOR/PROTECT another. YOUR LOYALTY WAS MISPLACED. It's the fact that your entire being, your "person" was not were it SHOULD HAVE BEEN---not so much were your lips, hands, etc. may have been.<P>And, so as not to forget FHL:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Marie, how did your H's idea of what caused the affair evolve or devolve with space and time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Hmmmm....evolve? As far as, unfolding naturally???-- I don't believe this ever happened. It was more like he asked himself, "What's the easiest way to appease Marie?" and/or, "What does Marie want to hear come out of my mouth?"...and went with what he *thought* I wanted to hear.<P>Devolve is probably closer to the truth--after repeated questioning, and with guidance from our counselor, he finally felt it was *his duty* to attempt to explain WHY the A happened.<P>It really is sad, because I was told so many different *truths* that I have absolutely no idea what the truth is. My heart stopped trying to figure it out a long time ago. My head took a little bit more convincing that this particular *subject* was okay to just LET GO of. I guess you could say that I simply accepted the fact that I will never know the truth.<P>BTW, I took the PERSONALITY TEST. I found the test <B>VERY FRUSTRATING</B>---why weren't the *right* answers there for me to choose from???? I scored as an INTJ. My temperament is RATIONAL (NT). Yeah, I could have told them that! Apparently, I like to view things from all possible angles...yeah, I knew that too! The characteristics for my temperament seemed to be pretty much "right on"...so, FHL, do I scare you too now????<P>Peace, ~Marie<BR>-------------------<BR>"Never give up. Never, never give up. Never, never, never give up." ~Winston Churchill<P>

FHL: Okay...whoa! Now you're starting to scare me !<P>YOU: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm a hard liner on this, but I believe you betrayed your marriage when you let someone into your mind and heart that didn't belong in your marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ME: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>IMHO, it's not so much whether or not you touched physically, as much as it is that you touched each other's minds/hearts...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Weird, huh? Aren't we supposed to both yell, "Jinx!", shake hands criss-crossed, and buy each other a pepsi---or something like that???? . ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

Marie,<P>Just a little (scare me, I mean)<P>Oh how I know about ever knowing the truth. I think there are some things I still do not know. Probably not physical or even the time table, but something about the continued contact. I get the feeling, although not comfirmation, that she was threatening him in some way, and I bet it was embarrassing me in way. <P>I may have liked a Jerry Springer moment with her. I might have found it cleansing.<P>I also have to accept that some of it my H can't figure out himself. And since there is really no point to disecting the details of two years ago, there will some uneasiness about this forever.<P>Oh and my H bakes chocolate chip cookies to die for...no nuts.

That works for me...Marie!

I agree with you...if I conveyed that I am taking this lightly, I was wrong, because I am not. In alot of ways an EA is worse and harder that a PA. My emotional state regarding how I felt is evident in my previous posts, I merely wanted to give the info to reflect the facts.<P>As far as uprooting her out of my head and heart...that is not just a switch you can throw and have it be gone, dont get me wrong my efforts are focused on my wife, us and my family, but I would be lieing if I said that somethings didnt "trigger" the OW to pop into my head. These occurances have slowly been diminishing and I pray with confidence that they will disappear, so yes I betrayed my marriage...I hate myself for that, like I said, I have lost something in myself AND my marriage that I cannot get back, I will regret that till I die. ..I'm not a bad person.<P><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Marie...what is ROTFLMAO? and IMHO? <p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Well then don't hate yourself. You are right, you are not a bad person, your thoughts, words and actions regarding the affair were mistakes in judgement and character, but are not a bad person. In God's eyes you are loved every bit as much. Hating yourself will only make things worse.<P>And you are right, you can't throw a switch and presto chango your feelings. But you can have some control over your thought process and that control, over time, will diminish your feelings.<P>I'm going out here on a limb, because it is sounds like of cruel, but just as you can choose to see your wife and your marriage in a more positive light as you work toward resolving the issues in your marriage, you can choose to see the OW in a negative light and although I am advocating hate or hope for misfortune, I do think it is healthy to cultivate a healthy dose of dislike and disrespect. <P>It is not OK to keep a little shrine in the corner of your heart for OW. She is and will always remain an enemy of your marriage, regardless of how nice of person she is. I don't even allow myself to think fondly of my old boyfriends and they had nothing to do with my marriage. It is just not right to give any place of honor in your heart that does not belong in your marriage.<P>I know that you have a way to go on this, but if we are clear of our goals, our path is a little clearer.<P>You have lost something in your marriage and you and your wife need to grieve that loss. I still do. But you can also have an to grow and learn and become stronger and more committed through this opportunity. Lets face it, we grow and change during adversity rather than during the good times. Since you can't take this back, instead of regret, set your mind on making the most of the opportunities this mistake presents.<P>You made a terrible mistake. If you can take full responsibility for your actions and work toward eliminating anything that threatens your marriage, and then look ahead and work toward that which would repair, rebuild and restore your marriage to something more real, more loving and more honest than it has ever been, then there will be a purpose to all this pain.

Dear Dumone:<P>OK, I'm really, really late for my tennis lesson.<P>Just wanted to quickly say, "Of course you're not a bad person"... . You just, unfortunately, made a poor decision. Hey, forgive yourself! I've already forgiven you !!!!<P>BTW, my guy is FANTASTIC...I'm crazy about him. I don't like the fact that he made a bad choice...but I LOVE HIM FOR WHO HE IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE TO ME--My best friend, my lover, my confidant.<P>Gotta go...more later! Peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited October 27, 2000).]

I can't speak for Marie, but we have heard all about how sweeping this experience is for the WS, and of course we don't like it and yup, it is hard to comprehend.<P>But I do believe you and I know that once you are caught up it has an addictive nature.<P>You were in the military? Well think of us old timers as your drill sergeant in boot camp who "tears you down" in order to build you up, or however they say it.<P>A mame, yes mame, would be in order now

Ma'am, yes Ma'am<p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

I can't heaaaaaarrrrr you!<P>I knew something was missing in my ma'me.<P>OK...I want you to retreat back into your barracks (your marriage) and scrub it with a toothbrush. Anything that that doesn't belong there ripped out and shredded to bits with your bare hands. All I want to see is positive thoughts of your wife and a positive plan for your future!<P>Am I making myself perfectly clear!?

Delete<p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

Hi Dumone, FHL, and Marie,<P>I think it says much about Dumone's progress that he titled this post as he did. If he realizes that this whole process is "typical" for an affair, then he is past the believing that it is a special, blessed, one-of-a-kind relationship that keeps betrayers in the fog for so long.<P>Personally, I don't think there is EVER any real love in an affair, as how can anything real be built on lies, deceit, hurt, and sin? But there is definitely lust, selfishness, and evil in that kind of relationship, and until those bad things are overcome the affair will continue to be a barrier between the husband and wife. And God knows it takes a long time to overcome those feelings.<P>Marie and FHL, I too believe that I don't know the whole truth about firestorm's affair. I have read many times on this site that there comes a time you have to accept that you will never know the whole truth, and just decide to forgive anyway and put it in the past. I haven't figured out how to forgive something you don't know exists, but I am praying about it and trying to move forward. Any thoughts about this?<P>And Dumone, as a betrayer, what do realistically expect your wife to do about forgiving and forgetting? Do you think there will be a time in your marriage when this is truly out of your lives?<P>Thanks for the feedback.<P>Peppermint

Well it might make an interesting work environment for you, today <P>But you know it is enough for today if you "get" the idea that mental conditioning is a big gun in recovery and restoration of your marriage, as well as life in general.<P>On a side note, I would be rather like Private Benjamin if I were to be in the military...but I don't get my nails done!<P>And I don't have a tennis lesson...but I'm done cleaning out my E-mail, so I do have to get busy!<P>At ease!<P>

[what do realistically expect your wife to do about forgiving and forgetting? Do you think there will be a time in your marriage when this is truly out of your lives?]<P>Peppermint...I think she has forgiven me, or I dont believe we would be doing as well as we are...as far as forgetting, I dont think she ever will forget, this has changed us both and we are going to take this tradgedy and hope to make our marriage better than ever because of it....I hope I never forget this, so in a way I hope this never is truly out of our lives...the old saying, "If we forget the past, we are bound to repeat it"<P><p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 02, 2000).]

You guys took off without me this morning!<P>Marie, you sound so positive. I've been in a real bad slump lately and trying to get out.<P>I keep asking how to let go of the pain. I guess you just gotta do it?<P>Dumone - you sound good. Would your W be interested in posting? She is and will be going through the full gammit of emotions if she's anything like the rest of us, and it helps A LOT to share with others who know how you feel.<P>FHL - good morning. It's a lovely day here in S. Florida and this week I've decided to quit moping around and move on...<BR>