In skimming through the HN/HN book tonight, I read that H will always love a part of the OW regardless of how well I meet his most important needs. WHAT IS THAT!!!<P>You mean to tell me he will always love her and have fond memories of her? I'm struggling enough with all of this HIS needs vs. my needs and I find that statement a bit difficult to phathom.<P>I am at the point of finding some type of organization or committee to join in an effort to find someone who may be capable of meeting my needs. That's how it works, isn't it?<P>All of our WS's have been in a position to meet someone that will meet their needs, never once do they consider the fact they weren't meeting our needs, they so arbitrarily decided to have their needs met without asking our opinion or asking us to meet those needs.<P>They meet, they talk, they share, they converse, they laugh, they like, they lay down together...It's that simple. It will happen again, you know! It's too easy.<P>I am totally blown out of the water now, as if things weren't going to hell enough, I had to read this piece of info. I don't know how I feel about all of this patch it up and meet those needs idea.<P>I asked H tonight to please tell me if he doesn't want to spend time with me or to be with me, because I want to stay abreast as to what his intentions are in this relationship. We have not resolved any of our problems as of yet. He tells me to quit reading the books because they do not have the answers and the info is all wrong. He is one tough cookie to sell on this MB idea.<P>I said to him, at least I am trying to find some answers and solutions to the problems we have, he is not doing anything.<P>I asked why he didn't spend time with me,and he said he is too busy with work...Why? to earn more money...He is a salaried, self employed person... he earns the same amount of money if he works 40 hours or 80 hours per week! Next response...he doesn't want to do the things I do or go the places I want to go...What, where? to the mall to help buy birthday presents for two of our children and then grab some dinner afterwards. How difficult is that? He was too tired!<P>I have to just face the facts...I am uninteresting, undesirable, boring, unsexy, fat and old... no way to get around those facts. The problem I have with accepting this is ...He is boring(only talks about himself), which makes him uninteresting also, he is undesirable,(does nothing to romance me), unsexy ( does nothing to turn me on or make me think about him), he is also getting a spare tire around the middle, and he is also getting old. <P>He told me we could talk about this tomorrow at lunchtime instead of now, to be quiet and let him go to sleep, he is sleep deprived!!!<P>Do I really want this marriage? I honestly can't say, Yes, I do. This is boring as hell, living a lonely life in a house full of people... explain!<P>Another incessant ramble job, thanks for reading if you hung in there! What's up with that Harley statement?, I am so upset and disappointed to read that.<P>Cathy<P>

I think it is more like the place an old boyfriend might have in your heart...a few fond memories, a "soft spot" maybe.<P>This bugged me too at one time. But, the "love" fades and becomes more of a memory of love than an active form of love. <P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi

Thanks for reading Kathi. I'm hanging! That's about it!<P>Cathy

Dear Cathy:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>In skimming through the HN/HN book tonight, I read that H will always love a part of the OW regardless of how well I meet his most important needs. WHAT IS THAT!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>Yeah, I know...OUCH...PUKE...OH MY! Guess that's what you call one of those brass-knuckled truths that you just have to *accept* and try to swallow...open wide <sigh>.<P>Wow! You've *hit* on many different issues in this post. I really wish I had all the answers for you...but truth is, you'll have to work thru this current *stage* you're passing through. And, YES, I believe it's just another phase--a not too flattering one--the one where you take a good, hard look at what you have to offer -vs- what you're used to "getting"...and asking yourself, "Why am I even bothering" (????).<P>I was there not so long ago.<P>I hadn't really decided if I wanted my marriage. I looked at all the horrendous things my H said/did to me/US...then I took a good long, hard look at myself. And, YES!, part of me said: "Marie, honey, you could do SO MUCH BETTER!"<P>I guess you could say I was at some sort of impasse--STUCK--no *safe* or sure plan of escape. So, I simply existed for a while. I was about as good as a worn out dishrag.<P>I can't possibly tell you WHY you should fight for your marriage, as I don't know what good reasons you may have---But, YOU DO, Cathy! YOU can DO THAT! You can examine the GOOD in your H, your life, your marriage--Or, you can DREAM of what you can make of it...and then YOU CAN ACT ON WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO HAVE/CREATE THE LIFE YOU DESERVE!<P>Realize that no one can do this for you--not your best friend, not this website, not your H--ONLY YOU.<P>You must reach down in the depths of your soul and pull up any fight that you still have within you--and then FIGHT what I refer to as *the good fight*---if, this is indeed what Cathy wants.<P>Forget about OW...it was NEVER about OW. It has always been about what is/was missing in your H. <B>YOUR H DID NOT CHEAT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, but because of WHO HE IS.</B><P>Think long and hard about that statement.<P>Reverse it. Did you stay faithful to your marriage vows because of who your H is????---NO, of course not, most likely you stayed faithful because of <B>WHO YOU ARE</B>.<P><B>If unmet needs warranted a *free affair ticket*, he!!, we'd all have one in our back pocket.</B> <P>BTW, I'm not so sure about that statement in HN/HN. Surely, that refers to situations in which in-love feelings were still present at the time the A ended and couldn't possibly be *true* in all affairs (???). And, even if it is true, I believe it takes thoughts (intentional thoughts) to keep those feelings *alive*. I guess it's possible that my H will always love a small part of OW---I wont't say it CAN'T/doesn't happen---but I'm not *threatened* by it any longer. So what? Who cares? Big Deal!...she just got lucky, that's all!<P>I've reversed gears--changed my attitude. Decided I was gonna make it come he!! or high water. I've taken back MY LIFE.<P>I'm going forward. I'm going to take care of myself, my children, and attempt to love my H to the best of my abilities. H is welcome to join me/us in my celebration of LIFE. However, I'm done, finished, have washed my hands of what happened--why it happened--how he could have allowed it to happen...you know, that's HIS WORK. I'm not going to lose sleep over H's inadequacies. He's a BIG BOY...he knows acceptable -vs- unacceptable behavior. Likewise, I'm a BIG GIRL...I recognize my own acceptable/unacceptable behavior. I will attempt to be the BEST Marie I can be...simply because it's the RIGHT/JUST thing to do.<P>I CHOOSE to work on myself, on my marriage. I CHOOSE to live, love, laugh, and praise God for this life he has given me. I've set myself free--and, I'm going to be OKAY! <P>Cathy, YOU WILL BE OKAY too! I know you will! Hang in there...<P>Peace, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

Yeah, Cat, I read that too, and was just as pissed off as you are.<P>There's a lot in HNHN that makes sense, and also a lot that's bulls**t -- or ought to be.<P>This was one of them.<P>The other one was in advising women to have plastic surgery if necessary, if that's what it takes in order to fill a husband's need for "attractive spouse".<P>This book was obviously written by a man.

Dear Cathy,<P>I personally believe that there are exceptions to the rule about that statement in HNHN. I wouldn't use the word 'love' loosely because it could well be that the WS likes the conversation or the independence but not the whole person and committing.<P>You have gotten great advice already and I would simply add that in our situations, the only way to change our H to meet the marriage needs is to commit our H to God for God to work His will in them.<P>God Bless you<BR>weep

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>In skimming through the HN/HN book tonight, I read that H will always love a part of the OW regardless of how well I meet his most important needs. WHAT IS THAT!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I must admit that this still causes me a certain amount of pain. My wife doesn't use the "love" word, but she has admitted that she still has a special place in her heart for the OM, and this is after he abandoned her and bad-mouthed her after discovery. Trying to just "live with it" is a lot easier said than done.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Surely, that refers to situations in which in-love feelings were still present at the time the A ended and couldn't possibly be *true* in all affairs (???). And, even if it is true, I believe it takes thoughts (intentional thoughts) to keep those feelings *alive*. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cathy, my h ended his when the feelings were at the height, he did not go on until it died...<P>And still, oh my is correct. Emotions seem uncontrollable, but we all have an intentional choice to dwell on thoughts that present themselves. Just as we the BS choose to not dwell on the past and feel sad, the WS can and must choose to eradicate the feelings for the OW.<P>My h chose to kill those feelings (as he once killed his love for me). Now he remembers OW not as a person, but as an experience he had once - fun, but it caused a lot of pain.

Part of our story is my long-ago affair, nearly 11 years ago. Much regretted.<P>I have no feelings for that OM. Nothing. In fact, 2 years ago, when Guard's affair had begin--I didn't know--but he had left me the first time, the OM called me that very week. I hadn't heard from him in 8+ years. I told him I was content in my marriage. About a month later, he came to town, dropped in at my store. Still nothing. He's a gorgeous creature, but I just wanted him to leave. He called me a few more times, including after I found out about my H's affair, saying I had been the "one woman" in his life yadda, yadda, yadda but I told him to stop calling, then just hung up when he did.<P>Maybe I'm somebody that doesn't fit the WS mold, but I thought some of you would like to hear that the affair feelings don't ALWAYS last forever. It may also be because at the point of my H's discovery, I thought the OM was a scoundrel and was regretting my stupidity--comin' outta that fog. But if there had been anything, certainly the point at which my H was deep in an affair, saying he didn't love me, I was undesirable, I would have been susceptible to the OM again. I thank God I was not.

I don't believe that for a second. Some cases yes, come cases no. I totally completely depends on the people involved. I had boyfriends who I can remember saying "I'll love him forever" that now the thought of even dating him makes me laugh (and often gag). Of course with our xOW the fact that she acted like an immature psycho ***** pretty much assured that the only feelings H would have lingering about her were fear and loathing. My best friend had an affair with a man she said was her soulmate. 5 years later if she is forced to think about him all she thinks of is an overweight, balding salesman who was on his 4th wife already, a total sleazebag, someone she wouldnt' even be friends with. People's perceptions change drastically as time goes by.

Catplay,<P>Hi honey... in my H's first A, I believe he did no longer "love" or harbor fond feelings for the OW. I do know he made contact after we got back together and slept with her, she recently told me this, but they both agreed that there wasn't anything between them anymore, it was all sex and fantasy.Now this came from the horses's mouth, not from my H. <P><BR>But ... I do believe that every situation is different just like every person involved in the A is different.<P>I also believe that they never forget (not feeling related but just memories) the OP, I mean how can they, it caused so many people so much pain, the memory of the OP is something they have imprinted in their memory, whether they be bad or good memories.<P>So I guess I'm saying that I don't 100% agree with the Harley's ... that the WS will always hold some degree of "love" for the XOP. <P>I'm sorry you're going thru a rough time right now Catplay ... your latest posts show me you're having a real struggle with this, understandably, and I do know how you're feeling. <P>Try to step back and distance yourself from the emotional part of it and ask yourself "what do you really want", keep asking yourself that because it's oh so important. If your heart isn't into this ... then eventually it's going come out in your marriage and it's possible recovery, it's not something you can hide, believe me BTDT.<P>Prayers Hon. Please be well.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 23, 2000).]

It's...Late night with Cathy....<P>Thanks for all the responses and concern.<P>Yes, I believe this is a stage in the recovery system and I was well overdue a vent session. <P>I need to keep reminding myself of the fact H choose to do what he did, because of who he is and not who I am.<P>My H also came back before the A died a natural death, may be not at the height, but there was much vacillation going on for him at that time.<P>I also believe some of the MB is pumped up jargon. You have to consider each case in scenario and realize each is different. I trust most of the findings of the Harley's, to be very factual, then others I find to be unrealistic and quite unobtainable. We each have to adapt the rules to our own situation. <P>Sometimes I get the idea that some of the posters here on MB actually work for the Harley's and answer some of the topics for them as sort of a go between. Their responses are so professional, well thought out and articulate. Could this be part of my TRUST issues? They sound like trained counselors too me! Anybody think that?<P>Resilient, My, oh my you amaze me! You are so kind to respond to my posts with all of the problems you face...<P>I am stepping back and taking a long hard look at myself... I can't remember who advised my doing for me and taking back my life and not being Mrs. So in SO, to give me worth... to be me and do what me wants.<P>This is so true, when H first came back I was rearing to go, do and show my independence, because I was doing so well while he was gone. Now, I feel I have crept back into my shell of insecurity and mistrust. I was doing so well and I truly believe I am angry with myself for getting back into that dependent routine and needing him to validate me. I don't know why I have slipped backwards in this area. <P>I had lost weight on the infidel. diet and was looking pretty "hot" as the kids say... now I have gained most of it back and I don't excercise anymore. Depression... I know, I know. I really should take that Wellbutrin, I am cheating myself.<P>Thanks so much all of you, my friends!!!<P>I will be ok, this is a stage or phase whatever we want to call it... I need to pick up the pace and think about myself and my needs and not worry about what or who he is doing...Honestly, I don't think he is doing anything I should be concerned with... it's the trust issue... <P>He told me tonight that he is tired of me making snide accusations, questioning him about his where abouts, and my being so suspicious. I told him that he needs to remember that I was once the unsuspecting, trusting, naive, faithful, innocent housewife; and I am not that person any longer... some "people" took away my innocence and trusting nature, and I will never be the same again!<P>Enough said!!! Yes, I am having a difficult time right now, but I suspect everything will be rosy in a few days and we will be all lovey dovey again... does it ever level off?<P>Thanks, Cathy<BR>

Marie,<BR>You have done it again...just when the dark coulds were rolling in your words made sense of this turmoil we are going through, still. My H affair was never about who I was although he would/has certainly blamed me for it and he knows right from wrong, he is an adult (I think, although his behavior makes me wonder). I cannot make him do anything, I don't want to and I won't let his behavior dictate who I am. I know who I am and I want to share this life with him, but he continues to make it very difficult with his continued lies and deceptions. <P>I am feeling very sorry for the OW now because of the things he has done to her, if you can believe that. I have come to only one conclusion...neither of us deserve to be treated the was he has/is treating us. Now I never thought that I would be hearing myself say that, but he has been lying to both of us for months and why? He didn't want to hurt anyone?? I don't think he has a clue as to the hurt this has caused, no I think that he does and that is why he is retreating into this oblivious state. He can't deal with it, so he doesn't. He thinks that she will just 'figure it out' if he gives her the cold shoulder. How cruel a treatment is that...why not just tell her it is over so she can try to work on her own marriage. As you can see, the questions just keep rolling in, and I thought that we were recovering...I think I have been and H has just been hiding. He has maintained contact with her and lied to me when I gave him the opportunity to come clean, and in the same breath told me that he would not lie to me! Oh what will it be next? But whatever it is, I know who I am and it will not beat me. I am stronger than all of this and intend to keep right on living and loving him and this life.<P>As for the original topic. No I do not believe that WS will love the OP forever. Why would they unless they continue to nurture that relationship. I have certainly loved other people, very much, but now they are just memories some good some bad, but memories that don't influence me in any way. Why should this be any different?<P>End of raving for the moment... .<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Sometimes I get the idea that some of the posters here on MB actually work for the Harley's and answer some of the topics for them as sort of a go between. Their responses are so professional, well thought out and articulate. Could this be part of my TRUST issues? They sound like trained counselors too me! Anybody think that?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, Yes, Yes! I think that, too! And they seem to always be selling the books or counseling with Steve. There are some 'real people' here that do recommmend the books and the counseling, but there are a few who are so zealous about it, I think they MUST be on the payroll.<BR>

Cathy...<BR>I have a question for you. Perhaps I am wrong to assume this...but suppose that the first man/male that you ever made love to ...was/is not your husband to whom you are married to today. <P>I know that most people never forget that 'first experience'...especially if it was a 'pleasant' experience. I've known of women who even years and years later...married to different people...still had a 'special' place or memory of that person that they shared that with. I have heard it illustrated before that when a man and woman have intercourse...or some deep shared experience on that level...that they 'exhange' a part of their souls with each other. I have also heard that those 'soul ties' can be broken through prayer.<P>I think Harley's point in the book, and I have read that before and was concerned as you are, is this...he is talking about the addictive nature of these relationships. And just like an alcoholic must accept the fact that he is an alcoholic...and can never, ever drink again...that so it is with someone whose heart is joined withsomeone else's. They can never associate again... They might try and convince themselves that they can 'handle' it...but they have already proven that they can't. <P>I would have to think that over time...those pulls and strong feelings would subside. Otherwise...your are right....there would not seem to be much hope for so many.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR><B> Yes, Yes, Yes! I think that, too! And they seem to always be selling the books or counseling with Steve. There are some 'real people' here that do recommmend the books and the counseling, but there are a few who are so zealous about it, I think they MUST be on the payroll.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I thought I was the only one who felt this way........LOL <BR>

So d'ya think that posters who recommend anti-deps own pharmaceutical stock?

I had another thought about this topic. I think part of it is the addiction thing. I also agree with others who said that it depends on the people involved. But I also think that part of why that is mentionedin the book is the trust factor. If there is no contact, it is much easier for the BS to trust the WS again. If there is contact, the trust will waver and sometimes the mistrust can cause certain people to react in a rebellious way. The thinking is along the lines of "If I'm going to be accused of it anyway, I might as well do it." Although it's probaly on a more subconscious level than that.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>So d'ya think that posters who recommend anti-deps own pharmaceutical stock?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps....

Hi Cathy,<P>My H's first three affairs were with women he "thought" he loved, but didn't. As soon as we got away from them, they faded from sight. Does he ever whistfully think back on those days? Maybe. I never cared so much about that. Rather, I cared about what he did to ME. And I was never able to forget. Forgive? Yes, I thought so. But let me tell you... the next time it happened, with other women, those three women came rushing back into my soul, and it was as if the pain was new again. No kidding.<P>Having been also on the other side once, I can say that the "love" I thought I had for the OM faded as quickly as the "love" I had for any guy I dated before I was married. I am still so very sorry for the pain I inflicted on my stbx, my children, and myself. Is there a soft spot for the OM? To be honest, a bit of one, not because he's such a rip-roarin' good guy, because clearly he isn't. I can't even pinpoint the feeling. I guess it would be something like how you miss cigarettes after you quit. You appreciate how they made you feel, but you know they could kill you. As time goes by, you begin to forget, but it takes time. I don't respect the OM, definately DO NOT hold any kind of love for him, but I don't hate him either. I do hate what I did, and myself for doing it.<P>As far as the thought that the Harley's have spies among us touting their books, counseling, and anti-deps... I've wondered the same myself at times. <P>Occasionally, someone will happen by with a "survey" about "us"...it's been about six, seven months since it last happened...like a grad student in Psych or something... I hate feeling like I'm under a microscope. <P>Anyhow, I guess I went off topic here... sorry. <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 25, 2000).]

Personally, if the Harley's are lurking and posting, I like it.<P>Since this ordeal started I have an innate sense of needing to be taken care of, feel safe, kept an eye on, needing someone to know I'm alive and struggling and need help ... it's not attractive to be this needy, I know ... but thinking the Harley's are helping us (regardless if their marketing their wares) makes me feel safer.<P>It might be because I have no family (only in-laws really and my mom who is far far away)and so having my friends here at MB and the Harley's possibly watching and helping makes me feel like they care.<P>I need someone to care ... don't you guys feel a little bit like that??? Or is it just me being so insecure and needy???<P>It's so weird, when I was secure in my marriage, I was a dynamo, nothing and no one could stop me, I knew what I wanted and I go for it, I always had the belief of "Why Not", why not try to do what you desire and achieve it, what's the worse that can happen if you try, you die??? So go for it!<P>Now, here I am AGAIN, and insecure, insignificant little mouse. Trusting no one and questioning everything I once knew. Grrrrr! Such a dychotomy.<P>Jo<P>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 24, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 24, 2000).]