My wife is the WS. We are in some form quasi recovery by the Harley methodologies, since she still has regular contact with the OM. They work together which consists of phone calls and occasional travel. So my question is, Did you have difficulty in expressing remorse or regrets for your actions and if so, Why? <p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited October 23, 2000).]

I am not a WS, but thought I'd tell you that (according to Harley) this (not expressing remorse) is not at all uncommon.<P>More info:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html</A> <P>Good luck!

well... sorry you have to be here, but i hope i can help.<P>Not expressing my remorse was because, i truley did not have any for a long time. Even now, at times, i still dont' have remorse for what i did, but for who i hurt along the way. Was it worth it? No.<P>D-day was Jan. of 2000. I had contact with OM until May of 2000, when we moved. Until i had absolutely no contact with om i could not have remorse, because we were still connected. We still had things going on. I am not convinced you can be around OP and not have things still happening.<P>honestly, i have a hard time being regretful for the things i did, because i truely enjoyed my relationship with OM. And truthfully, until that is dead and gone, true repentance and remorse are not possible.<P>mercy

I had no trouble expressing my regret and remorse - there for a while, I cried almost everyday over this horrible, horrible mistake. But, I think I knew what I was doing was wrong, I confided in my H about the A (he did not discover it), and ultimately, I took responsibility for my actions. I truly regreted the hurt and pain that I had caused my H, but more importantly, I felt genuine remorse that for months I had lied and cheated behind my H's back - that was the thing that killed me inside. I ultimately confided in my H about the affair because I could not stand lying to him anymore - the guilt and remorse was eating me alive.<P>For me, I never really went looking for an affair, but I hat a whole bunch of trouble saying no - because being with the OM made me feel special. It was weird. The A was by far the worst mistake I have ever made in my life, and I think I had no trouble showing my H how sorry I was when I begged for his forgiveness. Even now, I feel a tremendous amount of regret. . .I'm learning to live with it, but for me, I don't think I had any trouble showing my remorse.<P>My H often said that I was being harder on myself than he ever could be. So, I don't know if I am the exception to the rule, but when I came out of the fog, ended the affair, and realized just how wrong it was, that's when the guilt, loss of self-respect, remorse, regret, etc., hit like a tond of bricks.<P>After all that I have been through, I do not think that I could continue to work with the OM. If it were me, I would have tried to find another job. Luckily for me, the OM was not a co-worker. There are still things that remind me of him, but I have been able to maintain no contact for almost four months, and I believe that has made a huge difference in how my H and I have been able to get through this.

I guess firestorm is an exception to the rule then. <P>Yay, fs! <P>It's too bad it's so uncommon. It would just be so super healing and reassuring to me to know there is sorrow and remorse for the unbelievable pain that the WS has caused.<P>My own H apologized "in a way" while I was crying so hard I started to throw up. It was more a statement to the effect that he can't believe the pain he's caused "everybody". Maybe <I>that's</I> when I started heaving?! <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited October 23, 2000).]

Major, major regrets, oft expressed. <P>Why? <P>Too deep to delve into, but suffice it to say that the A (which was mostly an EA, but a PA one time) was an expression of a lot of horrible feelings about myself, and ended up confirming a lot of OTHER horrible things about myself. Major pain inflicted on my W, whom I genuinely cherish and who I never seriously contemplated leaving for the OW. Fairly major pain inflicted on the OW also, who I basically had to slam the door on during a difficult period (found out she had cancer about a month after I ended it).<P>Just an awful, sordid, tawdry thing. . .

My H is sorry, but did not express remorse. In fact for awhile he expressed thinking a lot about coming back, but he was more concerned about what his friends and family will think of him (fence sitting, indecisiveness, etc.) He still has not come home. <P>I wonder how much of this has to do with prider/stubborness of being seen as wrong and trying to prove that he did not make a mistake. His mother thinks that in the end if he keeps up with that kind of thinking, he will have no one except his pride.<P>How sad.....

I can relate. A mentor I once had told me "The most costly meal you will ever pass up is Crow/Humble Pie (U pick)"

But I heard that crow was best eaten while it was still warm.<P> <BR>

Sweetpea, don't be so determined to be unhappy! <P> Your H is damned if he says she meant nothing but he's damned if he says she meant "everything"!<P>My H says she means nothing to him "anymore" and now I choose to interpret that in the best way that I can. <P>Obviously they (OW) meant "something" to them (our spouses) at one point. Whether that means our H's thought they met their soulmate (ouch!) or the OW threw themselves at our H's or any variation or degree between the two. <P>So it's quite possible that she NOW means "nothing" to your H. And that is the way it should be. But I do believe at one point she met a need of his and thus meant "something" to him. But it's over. <P>I guess that is why an apology is not necessary for me anymore.<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited October 23, 2000).]

I can truly say that there is a difference between SAYING you're sorry and being WHOLEHEARTEDLY sorry.<P>After our first dday (firestorm confessed that time), he constantly, daily told me that he was sorry he hurt me. Only recently have I realized that he never said he was sorry for what happened, only that he was sorry I was hurt. According to his excellent therapist, he was sorry I was upset but thought that what happened was really no big deal and that I was making too much of it. Typical man thing, I guess because they didn't have sex during the first go round of the affair.<P>Over the course of the next nine months, he got tired of the fact that I wasn't "over it", felt as if he was being punished for something he really didn't do, and decided if he was going to be punished for having an affair (he didn't really believe it was an affair because of the lack of sex) that he might as well really have one. That kind of thinking led to round two.<P>This time the other woman's husband discovered the relationship and told me about it. To be honest, firestorm initially was only sorry that he got caught. It took some time and some therapy for him to actually accept the real impact of the affair, and it completely devastated him. His apologies are much more intense, detailed, and sincere now than they were the first time.<P>It honestly takes some time for the whole thing to sink in, for the fog to lift, and for the betrayer to be able to face what they have done. I don't think that happens until contact is ended, both physically and emotionally.<P>There is no doubt in my heart or mind that firestorm's apologies are real and sincere this time. I can only hope and pray that the changes he has made are permanent and that the damage is not too great for us to repair.<P>In our last joint session, firestorm's therapist really focused on the importance of the betrayer seeing clearly the consequences of their actions, truly feeling the pain they have caused, and accepting true responsibility for it. Not just speaking the words that we want to hear, but saying the things that let us know they feel the full impact of the affair.<P>Last year firestorm SAID the words he thought I wanted to hear. This year the words he says let me know that he truly sees clearly what he has done and regrets that he did this terrible thing both to me and to us.<P>Offering an apology is not the same thing as sincerely giving an apology.<P>Peppermint

Well, Peppermint, now I'm p$*&(# and DO want an apology! <P>I just loooovvve fs' therapist!<P>Too bad Harley doesn't stress the WS to "truly feel the pain" they have caused and to give intense, sincere and detailed apologies to their BS. <P>In the apology department--you are one lucky lady!<P>He makes all the other WS' look bad in comparison!<P>But still, I am grateful for all that I do have in my marriage.

Forgive me, Sweetpea, I forgot you had a "cafe woman".<P>Good luck to you this week, Hon, whatever you have up your sleeve!

Leilana,<P>(Peppermint is typing this for me because I smashed my finger in a fire training incident earlier this evening.)<P>Thanks so much for the kind words in your posts. I really don't feel special in my remorse since I see everyday the devastation and pain that I have caused. I don't believe I could ever really feel the pain that betrayed spouses go through. I often used to tell Peppermint that I would trade places with her just so I wouldn't have to look at myself in the mirror everyday. But now that I see what she is going through, I don't think I could survive what she is experiencing.<P>I could not begin to come close to make up for what I have done, but I someday hope to repair as much of the damage as I can and along the way make myself a better man and husband.<P>Thanks again..........fs<P>

My wife claims to be truly have remorse and regrets trapped up deep inside and just can't seem to allow any of that to surface. In my humble and fairly meaningless opinion (at least in her eyes), The repression of those feelings is probably due to the continued contact. I think a few of you alluded to that same opinion. <P>I appreciate all that replied, it means quite a bit to know that there are still folks in the world willing to help a complete stranger. I think this forum is one of the truest expressions of the following quote from R.W. Emerson <BR>"It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life that no man can sincerely try to help another, without helping himself."<BR>Thank you<BR>

That's a beautiful way to end a post but I'm going to mess it up now. Just wanted to apologize and give a heads up as well to SKM. I had not seen her post above mine earlier. You ARE another exception! <BR> <BR>And you're very welcome, fs. Hope your finger is back in firefighting condition soon. <BR> <P>

Early on in our recovery, and to a certain extent still today, my WS h. says that the 'horror' of how bad he could be prevents him from looking too long at himself, or he'd go nuts. Therefore, he can't be reflective long enough to express true remorse. He has gradually acknowledged one after another horrible thing he did or said. He says "allow the process" and "don't rush me into expressing things I haven't clearly felt yet".<P>Remorse seems to be a process...not an epiphany (woe is me). <P>liz<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited October 24, 2000).]

Sorry to jump in on your post, Hi. But I had to say this one - <P>Leilana, usually what your brain relays to your fingers is good, solid, heartfelt advice/prose. But today, you are acting out of character I think.<P>What a harsh, quick, thoughtless thing to say about the WS here. <P><BR>Is Marriage Builders turning into Marriage Busters? It will if ppl keep stating generalities and lumping the WS into a steaming pile of dung! <P> <P>Carrie<BR>

Yikes, Carrie! What did I say?<P>I'm reading back here.<P>Oops! Was it that "fs makes other WS look bad in comparison?" Wow--was that what elicited your response?! <P>I think you're right--I hadn't realized I made a "pile of dung" out of WS' there, so sorry!<P>How can I make amends without taking away the praise I feel for WS' who feel/acknowledge remorse? That was all I intended to do, you know.<P>Some days I just can't get it right.<P>My heartfelt apologies, Khyra. <P>How ironic that I feel regret/remorse for posting on a regret/remorse thread! <P>How are you doing, Khyra?<P> <P>

Lei,<P>You get it right a whole lot more than you realize. <P>Of course there are plenty of WS who do not feel regret. Some ppl are not capable of much remorse period. For them, those comments are appropriate. <P>But for those of us who have done everything we can and still are to get our marriages back on track, who are truly sorry not just for the crappy, heartless ways we acted but also for the inexcusable, villianous way we have treated our spouses, it hurts to read stuff like that. <P>People like Deut (soulloss's H), Firestorm, Duncan Mac, Susan, Bonnie Sept, New Beginnings, Thorned Rose, Truth Seeker, Taxman, (phew!) just to name a few....<BR> <BR>It just reminds us that that is the general opinion of most people out there - that it doesn't matter how much we try now because of how bad we screwed up then. It reminds me of how many times my H was told by his 'friends' and acquaintences how the situation could never be rectified and why wasn't I out on my *ss yet? If we had listed to all those supremely wise people, we wouldn't be where we are today.<P>It's also like hearing "This is what we BSs really think of you WSs anyway. We're just trying to be 'the bigger person' here by even responding to you at all." And it's not just here on this particular post that I've gotten that vibe - innumerable posts smack of that attitude. <P>But I haven't said much at all until now, because I understand that the BSs who have endured so much pain NEED a place to vent freely and that they have a right to express their intense pain and grief. I advocate it happening. It's just those 'stereotypifying' or generalizing type statements that invariably get my goat. You know, the cute little one I call "Scape"?<P>We accept blame where it is due - here I sit with all but a few atoms of it on my lap. But we're here (WSs) because we want to try. We all feared coming here at first - worried that our efforts would be discredited, attacked, belittled, etc. We worried about the anger vibes that would naturally occur in a place like this. But we come here and brave the waters of the stormy seas of this bulletin board because of the wonderful feedback we have gotten (Quite a bit of it from you, Leilana. )<P>Don't tell us you think we're all just a bunch of damage cases after all. <P>Lei, you come across as one of the more open-minded ppl here, especially in the way you have chosen to handle your own unique situation. I have read about your stuff and you have read about mine. I have always thought that I have conveyed to everyone here who cared to listen how sorry I was about EVERYTHING. Part of my anger came from feeling like - hey, what about me??? I'll bet other WSs who might have read this thread may have felt the same way too.<P>So, to make a long story short, my purpose in saying anything at all was to do my part in keeping this board the wonderful, open and safe place it is for both sides of the equation to post their most heartfelt feelings. To let you know that everyone's words and opinions do count. The majority of us here read much of what is posted.<P>Lei, we're all doing good this week here, thanks for asking. <P>Again, my apologies to you, Hi Infidelity for hedging in on this post. :O<P>Sincerely,<BR>Khyra<BR>