To quote an OW, "there would be no affair if there were no room in the marriage for one" and another, "why should I respect the marriage when he/she doesn't"<P>While there is certainly truth to the first statement, the second, I believe, tends to be more of a rationalization for their actions. Sadly, I also believe that it is exactly these beliefs that support (perhaps even encourage) the "treacherous" OP. <P>The treacherous OP are those that cross the line (sort of an oxymoron when talking affairs). Those that call the home, spend time w/your children, spend time in your home, threaten to sue, use your family or personal relationship to gain an advantage, etc. Generally schemers who want what you have.<P>Now I understand that I have no control over the OW. But what I cannot reconcile is that my H "invited" them in and in turn, allowed the "opportunity" for her to do those things to threaten and harass me and my family. (Fortunately, only the first one I discovered was like this, but she was a doozie!)<P>This is one of the MANY reasons I don't feel "safe" in this marriage. And as much as I have expressed this to him, it seems that he just doesn't get it. This extra "room" in our marriage still plays out today in other ways.<P>So, I need help friends. Couple of questions:<P>(This is more out of curiosity)I don't hear much about OM crossing the line. Do men have a certain "code of honor" thing?<P>While I can defend myself, etc., how do I express to him how I need to trust that HE will not "lead/leave me to the wolves"?<P>Enlightened<BR>

Enlightened,<P>I don't know how you can get a guarantee from your H, Hon. You just have to try and trust (Grrrrrr!). Yeah, I know trust.<P>I can tell you a not very good story about Treacherous OW related to Trust in H ...<P>H's First A (OW #1): He picked a woman who was an IV drug addict, in and out of jail, assaulting a police officer, stealing cars etc. She harassed me by calling and asking for H and then driving by our home (she never attached me or my character). At one point, when she got herself pregnant (I didn't know at that time), she dropped a nice little greeting card at my house, I came home from work and found it. Opened the envelope and the outside of the card was a beautiful little baby new born, then opened the card it said in print "Enjoy every precious little moment", then she wrote on the bottom, I'm having Steve's baby and due on November 11th. Enjoy ... Signed OW.<P>Now that was how I found out about OC, wasn't that nice??? Typing this and remembering this still has a horrible sting to it. Of course my H denied it all, no pregnancy, no baby, NO WAY! But now, of course we do know the truth.<P>Okay, so he and I somehow recover, we're happy for 8 years ... he tells me he'd never ever let anyone treat me like that again, he wants to protect me and will never again do anything that would give someone reason to treat me that badly. I trust him ... I'm stupid .... enter OW #2.<P>H"s Second A (revisited) (OW #2): Well there are several posts about this person. She called me many many times leaving messages on my answering machine calling me horrible names "cancerous C*nt" etc, recv'd hate mail and threats. Resorted to law enforcement and Anti-Harassment Order. I guess we all know from my earlier posts that she was way over the top. It was horrid.<P>So, where was my protective, loving husband, my knight in shining armor .... you tell me.<P>The only thing he had to say about OW harassing me is "She's broke one of my Rules" ... sick ... he has rules for being an adulterer.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 24, 2000).]

Jo,<P>I don't know, maybe our "protective" husbands are in the same place.<P>Gosh, your OW also put the "T" in treacherous. I'm so sorry you have had to endure this w/these women. BTW, I don't recall off-hand, which is your H with now?<P>I have read countless stories of infidelity and most OP are vipers. The venomous (sp?) OP probably had those tendencies before getting involved w/our spouses. So why don't our betrayers recognize this, but more importantly, when they see the OP's bad behavior toward their spouse, why don't they intervene?<P>Trust... Been there, done that; Been there, done that again... Who was it that posted about closing the door and sealing it? I've done that this time. He has the key, but he has to figure out how to use it.<P>So this is where I am stumped. Again, this is not just about the affairs, but in other areas as well (ie. doing the right thing when no one is looking) Am I not clearly communicating what I need or does he simply not get it?<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened<p>[This message has been edited by Enlightened (edited October 24, 2000).]

Hi Enlightened,<P>My H is with OW #2. And believe it or not, OW #1 and I are friends now. We have talked about everything. She has been thru rehab and has straightened out her life. I even was a reference for her so she could get a job. She has been so remorseful and apologized profusely for the pain, saying if she would have known me (which we had never met), she would have never persued my H or done such horrible things. Meth-Anphetimine(sp) did play a part in her unconscious behavior. I have forgiven her. She's a Christian now and her family and I are friends also. They allow me to take her OC on week-ends, I love him to death. And I hope he loves me too.<P>The only reason I brought up her meaness to me was to illustrate how my H did not keep his promise to protect me, he knew how much those things hurt, there just weren't words. But regardless, he CHOSE to do it again with a woman who he knew had potential to be abusive to me AGAIN, and she certainly delivered.<P>There have been times I didn't want to live because his lack of caring hurt and was constant and deep, but something keeps me going, there always seems to be a window to see thru, light shining just out of reach ... I pray that when I find that door to walk thru, there will be a better place to be. I want to live a happy life. I deserve it, we all do.<P>You take care of yourself Enlightened, you keep praying and keep being strong for yourself. This is YOUR life, it's a gift and you don't deserve to suffer and live in agony always, there is hope ... it's in you.<P>Love,<P>Jo

Jo,<P>You are blessed with such a sweet spirit. Your ability to forgive OW and become friends w/her says alot about you and the compassion you possess.<P>I believe that there are usually "extenuating" circumstances surrounding those OP that cross the line. Just don't understand how my H could not recognize this in her when I could so easily.<P>And this, this, "trait" in him plays out so often in other areas. For example, he will listen to his friends about a business deal and wants to try it himself. I tell him that I think its a bad idea based on what I know about these "friends" and how they do business (i.e. friends and business don't always match; in business, every man for himself) Well, he convinces himself that they would not do the same things to him and he proceeds. Lo and behold! They did it. <P>It wouldn't be so bad if he only "learned a lesson", but these lessons ultimately affect our family finances as WE have to make up for the losses that they screwed him out of. I can't tell you the thousands of dollars we have lost to his "trusting" his friends. <P>When I give my viewpoint, it like he sees me as the enemy, holding him back and that makes him "trust" others even more.<P>I recently celebrated a birthday and I'm in a reflective phase right now. Thanks for listening.<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened<P><BR>

Good gawd! You just described MY H, Enlightened. He too treated me as though I was the enemy. He'd be so naive in business dealings and I'd try to gently guide him thru a decision that wouldn't cost us dearly, well it never helped and he always seemed to consciously do the opposite of what I thought may pan out.<P>He was almost defiant at times, like he was a teenager, you know, rebellious. I'm thinking this personality trait is one that goes along with the weaknesses of having an A, you agree?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 24, 2000).]

Defiant, yes, that's the word I was looking for! <P>Rebellious like a teenager... Oh I could tell you stories! I have even told him that I felt like I was talking to a teenager or that I felt like he thought I was his mother. (I know, LB)<P>And yes, I do believe that this trait could certainly be related to multiple affairs.<P>We have reviewed Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement because I feel that this is a major problem in that we will decided one thing and he goes and does it his way anyway. (Thus my issues w/the lies, trust, etc.) Since the POJA is a big part of what I need, I thought going over this info from a nuetral party would help it sink in. I was wrong <P>Why the defiance, the rebellion? Why am I the enemy?<P>

Well my best guess, not being a psychologist and all, is that they had issues with either their mother or their farther in terms of dicipline and authority.<P>My H has stated many times "I don't like ANYONE telling me what to do" ... now I should qualify this because from where I sit OW is certainly at the helm and driving this ship, she IS telling him what to do, how and what to think, what he wants and how he should act and talk ... and wear. I'm not being bitter or trying to down play their "affection (BARF)" for one another, but it's SEX that allows her to do what he hates the most "Someone telling him what to do".<P>I also think his issues with authority are responsible for his propensity to sneak around and lie, he feeds on it, has to have some degree of emotional upheavel in his life, so lieing to someone will satisfy his need for getting away with something, knowing full well that it's eminant he'll be caught and hence the emotional upheavel. It's sick, he's sick!<P>Does this make sense, Enlightened?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 24, 2000).]

Yes, it does make sense.<P>I think you're on to something about the issues w/authority. My H has even suggested that since he is in sales and drives alot, when he is ticketed for speeding (which occurs often), they should take into account the number of miles he drives w/o getting a ticket! Granted many of us speed and don't get caught, but the intent of the law is not about who gets caught and certainly not a comparison of tickets per miles driven.<P>He also had problems on his last job because he refused to do certain routine assignments because he thought they were worthless. Now they appeared worthless to him because they were reports that he had to provide to other departments so those departments could, in turn, provide information to top-level decision-makers. He simply decided he wouldn't do them. <P>He gave excuse after excuse and would get angry that he was being asked about them. Eventually he was put on probation because he was not doing his job. He cried foul because he didn't feel a probation action was warranted. HELLO! You refused for over a year to fulfill your job requirements and don't expect a consequence? The probation put him under a magnifying glass and he couldn't take the pressure and recently resigned, still feeling wronged.<P>When I asked him about some of the hurtful things that he pulled w/treacherous OW, he stated that she "demanded" that he do it. Now how can someone you met "yesterday" demand something of you?<P>From what little I know about passive-aggressive, I think we may be dealing w/some of that.<P><BR>

My sister answered my question about what it is that make some adulteress so treacherous and wicked. She said that they have given everything, especially their bodies and hopes, to your WS, and when these can't even hold down the men, they get very vengeful. <P>I believe that this is particularly true if the banshees have schemed for some time and waited, playing and replaying in their minds the way our husbands will fall prey to their snarls. I actually find it hard to believe that there are women who would stoop so low to snarl a married man and then to ensure that the wife and family is torn asunder when the married man spurn them.<P>My case is really distasteful and I just started my second session of individual counselling to make sense of the adultery and to move on in my life. The chinless banshee was supposedly married and has sent a couple of men who spurned her to the police with false charges of harrassment. She even had my WS fire male staff when she played the damsel in distress just by putting a false police report. I remember this incident pre-affair with my WS because WS was telling me about this incident where he had to fire this highly qualified chap who just got married a month ago. <P>Later, when my WS was pissed drunk, which to me is no excuse, it got into the bed and the affair was sustained for two years. According to my WS, it attempted suicide, threatened to kill my baby and I, lurked at my gates, it was doing everything possible to replace me. My WS said that he kept rejecting it and drove it to knife him in public and landed in prison. Banshee also caused my father's chest to tighten and my father landed in hospital when it screamed at him and revealed the affair to him. He died from complications soon after. My dad thought I had the best marriage of all of his children. But there were more to what banshee told my parents and they couldn't take the shock and harrassment of threatening phone calls.<P>My friend who worked in the police when alerted about the banshee cautioned me to be alert to strangers especially if there are children. He said that in a number of the cases, the treacherous women would kidnap the school going children in exchange for the married men.<P>In our case, it seemed that my WS was not the only marriage she destroyed. Apparently the OW are often overlooked in their lives by single happening eligible males so they go for the married happening male knowing that a lot of these men are sometimes so secure about their marital status that they see little harm in offering a shoulder to cry on or some words of advice. Of course there are as many with the roving eye who would pick the uglies so that they simply use and throw away without falling in love. <P>Single eligible happening men usually flee from these desperate-to-be-married unhappening women, or they simply use them for once and dump them. The married men become trapped because of his foolishness and stupidity.<P>Banshee claims that she is a Christian, but when my WS asked it to turn to God and leave him alone, it refused. Now, in a bid to win him back, banshee has become a Christian again - like my pastor said 'even the devil can come as an angel of light; the only way to find out is that the devil will never confess that Jesus died and rose again 3 days later'.<P>Like it is said in Proverbs 5:3-6...in the end she is bitter as gall...<P>

Weep,<P>Why do some of us end up w/these she-devil OWs? For me, her invasion of my personal space made recovery that much more difficult. I know that my H is not responsible for her behavior, but he opened the door for her to choose to invade my space.<P>This OW was also somewhat of a "man-eater" My H told me that he heard her conversation w/her friend when she was plotting w/he best friend to come on the her H so her H would leave her alone and divorce her. What woman would ask their friend to get involved w/their own husband? But more importantly, why didn't MY H notice how low she would go? It's almost like she made sure my H heard the conversation as if she wanted him to see how desperately she wanted out of her marriage and would stoop to this level to be w/him. And my H, the knight in shining armor, was further convinced of his need to "rescue" her from this supposedly "horrid" husband.<P>Weep, your OW caused a great deal of turmoil in your life. How do you get over it?<P> <P>

Dear Enlightened, <P>Yes, we seemed to be the ones saddled with the psychos and treacherous psychos at that. I actually find it very difficult to believe the incredible things that some OWs do to break up a marriage. I have first hand accounts of best friends from h*ll who would just want to get their hands on the H of their friend just so that they will DESTROY their friend who is less and has less of everything than them. These BF from h*ll don't even fancy the Hs but just want to boost their self esteem and see a woman wrecked for life from such a betrayal.<P>So that is enough reason to get back to recovery and on to a joyful and full ife. <P>I think that the WSs are often so manipulated that they cannot see the whole picture. Part of the reason is that they are living a lie and in intrigue and therefore cannot see the light the way people who walk in the light can. Often, they believe that they are the center of the OW lives and any vindictiveness is due to the OW jealousy and insecurity and desperate attempts to have them. SO, Enlightened, I totally agree with you that these psychos appear to WS as the insecure women who would do ANYTHING to keep their men. WOW, what an ego booster. <P>For a while, till they live with them for life 24/7. <P>My WS was awoken by a knife in his flesh and an extortion of money. Now, he sits there and reflect and realised that it was all a wicked scheme. Unfortunately, the adultery caused us both to have fits sometimes. It extolled financial, emotional, physical, marital, health damages on us. I pray that we will be healed completely soon.<P>In a strange way, my sister told me that had the OW being all sweet and nice and hiding behind Jekyl all the time, with no Mr Hyde showing through at all. then our WS would leave with a sweet memory of a shared time. But treacherous and horrible women would leave their marks and teach a huge lesson of the big ugly fool they were.<P>But if there were real tragedies as in my father's and my husband's and my situation, I would say that it takes a lot of help to get back to a normal frame of mind. I now entrust my H to God and as for the psycho, we pray that God will deal her swift justice. I know pure evil (oxymoron) - she was in our marriage for two years, and my WS is not the same anymore. Everything about him has deteriorated due to her blackmails and cruelty. As for myself, I kept keeping my baby as a focus and I really believe that she is a gift from Jesus to help me through this. I miscarried and took a long time to conceive, and baby saved me from destroying myself when I couldn't take the blow of my WS's affair and when I couldn't believe how the psycho kept threatening me and our family members.<P>How do I get on after such a treacherous OW is that I know that what WS said about our marriage being golden is true. I know that he would have been foolish to just throw away such a marriage for someone that he said had no appeal to him at all. But for his lack opf faith and fear in God, he allowed himself to be so pissed drunk and then unable to flee when the banshee was in his bed, and thinking that he alone (with his status, looks, charm, money, etc.) could convince the psycho to stop after she blackmailed him. <P>I also have individual counselling now and I look forward to being the person I was meant to be - I would do my doctorate one day and strive at living a fuller life than before. Nothing fazes me anymore after this ultimate betrayal. I beleive I can even do bungee jumping! <P>Love<BR>weep

Weep,<P>Your posts show your strong faith in God and are always so encouraging!<P>Recovering from infidelity, like most any trauma, is such a spiritual journey.<P>I also prayed for justice w/re: OW. My faith that God would deal w/her gave me the strength (?) to forgive her.<P>My H, however, has not been given my forgiveness this time around. I honestly don't know that I fully forgave him last time. I forgave pieces of the ordeal, but don't know that I forgave all. Before we I could completely heal, he was at it again w/someone else and hence, my current dilemma.<P>I'm dealing w/a new development now and just want you to know that your message of faith touched my heart today. Thank you.<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened

Dear Enlightened,<P>I am sorry to hear your latest news, and I am concerned for your marriage.<P>I know that I cannot take any more betrayal. I believe that you can pray and commit your H to God so that God's will be done in his life. I was given the book "The power of a praying wife" by Stormie Omartian.<P>A pastor told us that often when a man sins against God, his wife and his own body by sleeping with a prostitute (or someone), bibically they 'are bind as one" and the soulish ties will be transferred. Spirits of lust, low self esteem, idolatry or others will mean that the man cannot get himself out of such adulterous acts. Only complete repentance before God and deliverance will break these ties.<P>If you go down to women's bible study and pull out an old thread of mine (only one) sometime in late October, you will be able to read two chapters I typed out for a member. You can pray for your H even if he is not willing. But I would suggest that you ask him about getting closer to God.<P>I am really at a loss as to how to advice you on this because only God knows what is best for you and your marriage and I think you may not even know what you want at a time like this. Give it to God and pray for His answer and Will be done in your family's life. Pray for hedges of protection around your H and marriage so that he cannot get to a lover nor a lover to him.<P>About Forgiveness (book by Lewis B Smedes "forgive and forget - healing the hurts you do not deserve). I haven't finished reading that yet but the essence is that 'God forgave you all your sins while you were yet a sinner" and "forgiveness releases you from a life of torment". <P>I have a huge problem with forgiving because I want to hold on to the 'grudge' longer until I see my WS's full repentance and full understanding of the hurts he dealt me. But I know that I have to really forgive bit by bit until one day I release WS from the debt fully. The horrific outcome of unforgiving was brought home during a church seminar when a woman had demons cast out of her for half a day. I never encountered such a scene and was quite shocked and frightened. Apparently, her WS affair left her rejected and she thought she had forgiven him but actually she simply repressed the whole thing and went on life with a seething spirit of ?, and she later testified that she never felt so cleansed as she was released from so much hate, suspisions, and darkness and uncleaness in her all these years. She cried that for the first time, she feels joyful again, she feels that life is not doomed and that she is so clean and fresh and refreshed.<P>Everytime I feel raw hatred creeping up in me, my sister would remind me of the demon-possessed woman I saw just after the discovery of my WS affair. It was no fault of hers but she allowed strongholds of unforgiveness, doom and other ill feelings into her life, and they ate her up slowly till half her life was all about those feelings. The screeching and screaming of the evil spirits were very terrifying and I have always prayed to God that I will never witnessed such an incident as have been described to me by other Christians. BUT while I was in deep torment and unable to even think about the notion of forgiveness, God in His mercy, sent me to church that day to witness what I could very well become if I hold on to the negative feelings.<P>How can I not bow down and praise God for His Amazing Grace and Mercy because it is really through the storm that I heard God's voice, feel His Hand, and saw His Face? <P>God Bless and Help You<BR>take care<BR>weep

Thank you again Weep.<P>I do pray for my situation. I think my biggest problem is letting go and letting God; remembering in His time, not my time.<P>Forgiveness is definately one of my struggles, especially when I have to deal w/developments such as the other day.<P>Thanks again for your message of faith.<P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened