The other night I was watching my H sleep so peacfully after having a very quiet, normal, almost "pre-discovery" night of TV, snacks and sitcoms. <BR>As I have said we are trying to work thru this, and I have become very pensive about alot of things I want to ask him. (I really think too much!) As I watched him, I'm getting tears in my eyes, and he doesn't even realize it. He comes home all happy, playing with the kids, talking of home improvements we can do this winter, plans for the baby(ours, not the OC) and I wonder...How does he do this? I, in the meantime, am dealing with the knowledge of what he has done, the OC, the birth of ours in a few days(hopefully!), and all the bad felligs that are still so strong. He wants to work things out, has no contact with OW and OC except to send CS, is willing to talk, in therapy, and help me as much as possible in the last days of pregnancy.<BR>I guess, to keep this post short and get to the point, is my question is this,... "How do you live with what you have done, no matter what the reasons for the A? How could you hurt the person you now realize you love the most and go on? And what do you expect from them?"...(As I see it, there is no reason for infidelity!) In my opinion I have been hurt beyond anything I have ever experienced, and by the one person who was to protect me and forsake all others. (Now, I know I'm having difficulty with forgiveness, and am stuck and more withdrawn than when I first found out.) But my question to you is to try to understand where he is at or coming from. Please forgive me if my question is too forward.

Dear Not Giving Up,<P>I think there are going to be different answers here because there are different reasons and roles for affairs, and different reasons people come back. I can tell you that in my case, my H and I are not back to pre-discovery, we are back to pre-romantic attraction, back to when we were just friends before we got involved. Whatever we build from here will be new, not a resumption of what was.<P>You ask how we could hurt the person we realize we love the most. I know that's what a lot of WS's wake up to. I'm not there. I am not in love with my H, although I hope that someday I will be. I don't know anything about your situation, but in mine, the hurt was at least equal on both sides. The difference is that the whole world recognizes the legitimacy of his pain. <P>So I guess I can't answer. I am resigned to staying married for my kids and I hope it will be better this time around.<P>It sounds like you have a lot of issues to deal with together and a lot of overlapping hurts to work through. I'm no therapist, but my sense is that you have to recognize your anger, experience, and get through it before you are also able to look forward and not back. I think that's where I am (and maybe where your H is?) I don't feel like I have a right to _expect_ anything from my H, but what is working is that he is being very very patient, and knows that it will take a long time to rebuild.<P>I feel for you. Who would have guessed that life would turn out to be so painful for so many.<P>Cottonwood

NGU:<P>I'm genuinely sorry to hear what you're going through, which must be very hard to bear indeed. I don't know that I can offer any final answer for you; I think that the responses to this question would be as varied as the number of WSs who answer. <P>I'm also not sure any answer would really be satisfying for you. I suspect that the question ("How can you people live with yourselves when you've hurt your spouses so much?"), like many of the questions directed to betrayers here, is more an expression of your pain and a none-too-subtle LB at your own WS than it is an honest inquiry of others. Still, I'll offer what I can.<P>I don't know if my experience is any guide, but the first thing I felt when I revealed the A to my W was relief. Relief that it was over, that the feelings I'd been struggling with for a while were out in the open and could be dealt with. Relief that the internal conflict had been resolved and that I didn't have to keep dealing with it alone. From the sounds of it, your WS may be feeling some of that, too.<P>Of course, it took a few weeks for the OW to leave my system; I was still conflicted over her afterwards, thought about her some, etc. But in general, the ending of my A coincided with D-day, which coincided with the decision to remain with my W if she would have me. I was also comforted in the knowledge, right away, that my W could forgive me, wanted to stay with me, too, etc. There was a lot of sorrow and regret and shame to work through, but those feelings could be shared, whereas the EA/PA was secret and gnawing away at me.<P>I'm sure you'd say "Well that's fine for YOU, but what YOU did was selfish in the first place, and this is EQUALLY so!" That may be true enough, but there it is. I felt good after getting the A off my chest, even as my W felt immediately and dramatically worse. I hope that it wasn't just to make myself feel better that I told her; I don't think so, and I don't think she does, either.<P>As to "how I can live with myself," i.e., how can I go on trying to live a normal life and not just kill myself over what I've done, well, that's a little harder. I've certainly experienced absolutely intense misery and shame over what I did to my W and to our marriage. Even the good moments we've had in the past few months have been clouded by the A, and the good moments often are only a heartbeat away from moments when neither of us can move with grief. We'll both know forever that I'm an adulterer, that I cheated on my W, who loves me more than I deserve. Our lives are different now, and I like them less than I did before.<P>But, when you get right down to it, is there any other choice but to try and go on? Should I commit suicide? Should I leave my W, so that we can add D to the list of ways in which I've screwed up my and others' lives? <P>The old guy running my corner deli may have lived through the unspeakable horrors of concentration camps; convicted murderers do sometimes put their lives back together (just ask Don King). I guess I'm saying that while nothing can erase the past, your past doesn't have to define who you are forever. At least I hope it doesn't, not totally.<P>None of this probably helps you, because you want to know how YOUR H can get through the day after he's done what he did to you. And for the answer to that, you have to ask him, not strangers on a bulletin board. Maybe he feels relief, maybe he feels that he can redeem himself by being the best father he can be, maybe it brings him comfort to comfort YOU as you struggle with your pregnancy and with his A. I don't know, but he does, so ask him?<P>Good luck with everything NGU. You're obviously a better W than your H has deserved in the past. The struggle with forgiveness that you're having sounds completely normal, at least from the general tenor of other BSs posts here. Maybe, if he works on it, your H will be able to deserve you in the future, and the two of you can make a better life. Take care.<P>

NGU,<P>I think what you are looking for is some sign from your H that he acknowledges what he did, sees the overbearing pain that it has caused you, and shows some remorse that he is truely sorry for what he did. It seems to me he is not wanting to face the facts and truth of the impact of his actions. I was like this last year. I didn't want to think about the A and tried my best to keep our lives as happy as I could. But failing to own up to what I had done and accept responsibility for my actions did not help Peppermint at all. I was living in denial. <P>Maybe one day he will see the truth in what he has done to you and your marriage and accept the responsibility for his actions. I think right now he is trying to forget the A and put everyting back to where is was before this happened. Maybe in some way he thinks he is actually helping you. One day he will have to face what he has done. <P>When I finally took responsibility for my actions, I sunk to the lowest possible feelings that I have ever experienced. Then and only then could I begin to see the real hurt that I have caused. There are still some things that I don't want to accept about myself, but I have to in order to be a better husband and person. This is not easy to live with. When I look in the mirror sometimes, I see the face of a stranger. I see all of those sleazy people that I used to talk about that had affairs. I don't like this person and I want him to go away. The only way to make that happen is to accept what I am and what I have done, and change it...........fs

Has he asked you to forgive him?? And you say<BR>you have?? if so maybe he has accepted that forgiveness..and doesn't want to dwell on it..If I go to Jesus and confess my sins to Him..and He forgives then I am to accept that forgiveness and not keep beating myself over the head with it..I mean. What good was the Cross then??? Is he supposed to live in guilt and shame the rest of his life??? Is he supposed to hate himself forever?? I guess <BR>it's just-- He who has no sin cast the first stone-- Have you NEVER MADE A Mistake ever in Your life as a wife and mother, that you should always be condemned for??? And not be forgiven for??? So the man made a mistake..yes it hurt you..yes your in pain..<BR>but those are Your feelings he can't control them..he can't make you change them...Only you can change those..Does he hurt that he hurt you...I'm sure he does..but should he live a guilt and shamed life because he made a mistake..No..if you have extended forgiveness then you need to take it God and allow Him to help you deal with those feelings you have inside you..<P>Yes, it will take time to rebuild the trust you once had..and it may take awhile..and thats okay..I'm sure it's not going to be easy for him either..trying to show you he<BR>can be trusted..<P>I'm sorry if this sounds mean...but I guess<BR>I have lived being condemned for past to long that it's just a really sore spot with me..

Thank you all for your honesty and replys.<P>Cottonwood:I recognize the anger. The problem I'm having is that I having a really hard time getting past it.I know he loves me and is remorseful and wants us to work this out. Deep down inside I do too.<P>Taxman:I'm sure that my H feels relief that I have found out. He has told me that. He doesn't talk to anyone but me and my therapist, and must have been living in his own private hell. All you said is true. And the most truthful is that I do need to ask him this.<P>Firestorm:My only hope is that someday my H can realize and admit to all you have. Thanks for the inspiration and proof it can happen.<P>Thorned Rose:I do not want to condemn my H forever for his actions. Yes, he has asked me if I have forgiven him and my answer is I'm not sure if I can yet. In my eyes, breaking a promise, especially one made before God in vows, is more than a mistake, and I cannot accept it as such.I have faults and made mistakes, as a wife and a mother. Burned the roast, forgot his drycleaning, forgot an important message, and yes even not shown enough affection. Never did I do something to hurt him so much to bring him to the floor... Mistakes as a mother, yelled too loud, blamed an arguement over a Barbie on the wrong kid, but never broke the promise to be the best mom I can be. (I'm still learning to be a mom!) All I'm saying is that I want to understand his view better, and all you said has been taken as an honest view and I do value it. (I just wanted to explain a little more my feelings) You are right, I own my own feelings, and only I can change them. But just as you say he should not have to live with the guilt forever, I have to live with his betrayal and the hurt forever, and he gave me no choice in that. I have the fact of the OC to remind me of the betrayal every month we have to pay child support. Thank you again for being so forthcoming, if I appear to be uopset I'm not. It is sometimes hard to put feelings into words.

I didn't mean to sound as if I was coming down hard..I know it's difficult enough as it is..I guess I have been on the recieving end of someone not forgiving my past mistakes for so many years..and having them thrown in my face constantly..and thats something your h has to live w/ too..He will ALWAYS be reminded of his mistake when he pays that CS every month..so he will have to live w/ that as well..not just you..and so he will have to live w/ that self-condemnation every month..and be reminded every month how much he hurt you..so he will be living his own kind of hell inside..and nothing you can really say or do will be able to ease that pain he feel..

Thorned Rose: I'm sorry that you are on the receiving end of constant condemnation. I hope I don't do that too him. Yes, I do know that he is living his own private hell. And I know that although his feelings he is dealing with will never be erased, they will ease differently. I hope someday I can be there for him as he is being here for me now and being so patient. And finally, you did not come down so hard, just honest, and that is appreciated.<P>Keep the replys coming, they are really helping!

Dear Not Giving Up:<P>Wow! Where to begin...what an emotionally charged post you've written--one of several already this week.<P>I can tell by your honest and heartfelt words how truly pained you are.<P>I'm so sorry for your pain. I'm sorry that your H was so careless with your heart. You are more than right when you infer that, "There is no reason/excuse *good* enough to justify infidelity."<P>Personally, I don't think your post is as much about your inability to forgive as it is about your desire to understand--understand HOW your H is able to go about his *business* as if nothing has happened...as if everything is *peaches and cream*. I believe you're asking how he's able to act so superficially--as if your pain and confusion are not bubbling up on the surface of his *world* as well.<P>Why can't he see and feel your pain? Why can't he help you thru it? Why can't he acknowlege your fears and confusion? Why is he pretending like you're OKAY--when you're dying inside?<P>Unfortunately, the only person that can HONESTLY answer your questions is YOUR H. <P>However, I can suggest that most likely he acts as he does because he doesn't yet want to face what he's done. He's not ready to *claim* your pain...he may never be ready. He most likely wants the *easy* way out-- the: can't we just forgive and forget? ending.<P>But, as BSs we want to UNDERSTAND. We have a strong urge to *fix* what was wrong. We look inside ourselves trying to determine why/how we failed. We honestly need to UNDERSTAND so that we CAN MOVE FORWARD...so that we can accept EVERYTHING--the whole ball of wax--and deal with it. Not in bits in pieces...not doled out month after month...RIGHT NOW! WE DO TRULY WANT IT TO END. WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD.<P>Some ruthless acts deserve explanation. IMHO, infidelity deserves an explanation.<P>As much as it's *right* for a BS to forgive and attempt to *let it go*...it's also *right* that the WS attempts to calm the faithful spouses fears, to wrap them in security, to affirm/acknowledge their pain.<P><BR>Dear Not Giving Up: Here's hoping you find the peace you so readily deserve at this stressful time in your life. Perhaps you would feel better if H were to hug you and ask how your day went before retiring together for the evening--PERHAPS you desire him to acknowlege what's going on..even if it's just this one simple gesture (????).<P>My suggestion is for you to share your feelings with your H. Attempt to ask for what you feel you need..."I would like for you to hug me and ask about my day--how I'm dealing--before we go to bed at night," and/or "it would help me tremendously if you could reassure me on a daily basis that you're glad to be home with me"...just examples...brainstorm on what you really need...and attempt to ask for what you desire in a calm, open manner.<P>As silly as it seems, I asked my H to tell me at least once every day that he was glad to be with US (me and kids)...it's been over a year in RECOVERY for us and he's changed this little affirmation to "Damn glad to be here with you Marie!"...but, he tells me each and every day...and it helps me to this very day. <P>Remember, if nothing else, that YOUR H DID NOT DO THIS TO YOU OR BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE....he did this because of WHO HE IS. I've posted this time and time again...but think about it this way: Are you faithful to your H because of who he is? Most likely NOT--you are faithful because of WHO YOU ARE!<P>This next excerpt is taken from the book, "The Other Side and Back,": The answer to "How could they do this to me if they loved me? is, "Their spirit has a longer way to go on its journey than yours does, or they wouldn't put so little value on love." It's their lesson to learn, which they may or may not accomplish in this lifetime...They won't learn until they're ready, any more than a kindergarten student is ready to learn nuclear physics...recognize that their spiritual limits, NOT YOURS, caused the betrayal to happen--and then attempt to let it go."<P>Hoping that you find your peace. Hugs, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

Hello Not Giving,<P>I'm glad to hear that you're 'not giving up'! First of all, I want to take a minute to acknowledge the huge amount of pain, uncertainty and anger you have endured. My god, while you were pregnant, of all things...<P>Firestorm was banging the nail on the head with what he said. YOu are looking for some answers - but you really need to hear it from your H.<P>Well, NGU, this may pain you to hear it, but he is probably NOT torn up inside with remorse much right now. BUt when he is ready to begin REALLY facing up to what he has done to you, you will know it. His behavior will change. I can't say exactly how, since we all deal with these emotions differently. <P>I simply COULD NOT live with my actions. I retreated, withdrew. When I finally had decided to give myself back to my H (because I love him and I knew then how very much I need him), I started thinking about things I had done and said. The way I handled it all coming down was crying, crying and more crying. What else could I do? Can't erase the past...<P>I think I got kinda clingy for awhile (still am sometimes.)<P>So, hopefully, you may see a change. He may just come out and apologize. It's important to let him know that you are open to discussing what happened. Let him know that his brininging it up will not change your mind about wanting to be with him and that you WANT to talk someimes about it. That the silence hurts you more. JUst tell him you are ready and waiting.<P>Best of luck - he'll come around. He's come thins far, give him time. He may just surprise you.<P>PS GOOD LUCK with the baby! Let us know how it goes! I'm excited for you.

One more thing,<P>Your H is doing everything he can right now to make things right. I didn't mean for it to sound like he does't care - he obviously does. So many other betrayed people here would give anything to be in your shoes now, with a spouse who is really trying.<P>Enjoy the good times. He can because life does go on. Yes, it is easier for him. But it won't always be. I think he may spend his share of late nights up, pondering, remembering, weeping for what he has done. It takes time to get there. If he weren't sorry for what he did would he have made any of the changes he has at this point?<P>This is the point where it's going to start getting hard for him - he is just beginning to realize that there are going to be times when no matter how hard he tries or how right he is doing, that your pain and the fact of what he did still lives. Let him know that you are trying too, by trying to appreciate him and the good times. don't complain because your life is closer to normal now. Don't give him the impression that there is no hope. <P>Like I said - now the hard part of living day to day has come about. You made it thru the hell, now propell as a couple united thru this 'purgatory' of sorts.<P>Give him a chance. <P>

Oh My Marie and Khyra: Before I retire to yes, snuggle with my H, I wanted to thank you for the insight. You are both right I do need to talk too him. <P>OMM:You are so right that I feel a need to fix this now. But there is so much more to endure with the baby coming, and I think he is really trying to get thru that first. I do think that I have withdrawn for some time now, and I don't want him to think he is losing me. I do need to express my needs to him now, and you know what, he does hoild me EVERY night and ask me of my day. He even called me today to see how I was after my breakdown last nite!<P>Khyra:I can only hope that my H will realize all you said as well. My sister said the same thing to me a few weeks back, he still hasn't hit the ground yet, and when he does he will hit hard. Again like I said above, I don't want him to think I am giving up. I have to stop withdrawing from him. He is a proud man. Too proud, but he WILL need me someday! Also, I do realize I am lucky in that he is trying so hard. I said that to someone today!<p>[This message has been edited by Not Giving Up (edited October 24, 2000).]