Wasn't sure to whom to ask this, but here goes. <P>For those unfamiliar, I'm a WS, had an EA/PA with a younger woman. PA was one time, after which I told my W, broke off all contact with the OW, and set about trying to repair the damage I had done.<P>It's been an up and down road for us. There was briefly renewed contact with the OW after about a month, when we discovered that she had cancer. My W suggested that I write her a letter (a version of a "no contact" letter, I suppose, but nicer) to tell her goodbye and anything else I needed to. Very difficult for both of us. Since then (which was about three months ago), there's been no contact other than one e-mail from the OW that I told my W about and didn't respond to.<P>What's made the last few months difficult on my end (and, I'm sure, on hers) is the roller coaster nature of things. For instance, the past few days were really good. W seemed reasonably happy, we spent a lot of time together, laughed a lot, made plans for the future, etc.<P>But I could sense a mood change coming on as the week lengthened. This week, she woke up from a dream that I had left her (she had another recently in which I was strangling her). We talked a little, cried a little, and tried to get around the rest of our morning.<P>I think her primary concern right now is whether the changes that we've been trying to make are something temporary, or that I'll revert back to old habits once the shock of the A wears off. <P>As an example: After college, I went to grad school (so did she, in fact she's still in it), which was fairly demanding, and my job for the past seven years has required a fair amount of time (12 hours a day or so, no more than a lot of people here, but difficult on a relationship). The demands, first of school, then of work, made me fairly crazed. Although I deeply love my W and like spending time with her, I sometimes viewed time with my W as another "obligation" that I had to fulfill, which left still less time for "me" and things that I liked to do (exercise, sports, etc.). I didn't take time to really think about doing little things that she'd like that would show that I was thinking about her. I'd never been a cuddler in bed -- I just can't sleep if someone is on top of me.<P>The A, simply put, shocked me. I'd never realized that I was capable of such a thing, of being so cruel to someone who cared for me so much. I also took stock and thought about whether the way I'd been living my life, and relating with my wife (apart from the A) were how I wanted myself and us to be in the future. <P>Since the A, I've tried to make some positive changes in my/our life on all fronts. I stopped smoking cold (I had promised that I would before we were married, but had taken it up on a sort of part-time basis after a few years). I make sure that I get home in time to eat dinner with my W three to four times a week rather than maybe one, as before. We try to get up and work out together in the morning, or at least have breakfast together (I was never big on that, either, just work out and out the door while she was still asleep was my credo). We read to each other in bed before going to sleep a lot of nights (just Harry Potter or something stupid, not like War and Peace). I've made a consistent, constant effort to do little things for her on a daily or weekly basis (little gifts, taking care of tasks that need to get done, etc.).<P>Still and all, our relationship before this was something like ten years, and habits are tough to kick, in addition to my not being terribly trustworthy right now. I completely understand why she might suspect that all this is just something I'm doing to pacify her after the A. For me, it's not, but I'm not sure if there's any way to reassure her of that, other than to keep it up.<P>So this was a long-winded way of asking a sort of vague question of BSs. For those of you whose WSs really tried to make changes in their lives following the A, were you suspicious of them? Did those changes "take" or did things go back to your pre-A relationship rather quickly? What could your WSs have done to reassure you on this score?<P>Thanks very much in advance. Hope everyone's well.

Hi taxman,<P>First of all, let me commend you on all the positive things you are doing. I'm sure you realize how many betrayed wives there are who on this site who simply want their husbands to do the same things you are.<P>My husband confessed in September of 1999 about an involvement similar to yours. He apologized, promised it would never happen again, made plans to change, etc. He actually did make some changes, but they were only temporary as were his promises to never see her again, blah, blah, blah.<P>Within a few week of his confession, I could see old patterns starting to emerge. I rediscovered his affair in August of this year, and it had been going on for about five months at that time.<P>So even though I can really see a changed man this time, it is going to take a LONG time for me to put my faith and confidence in believing that these changes are permanent. Some people are ready to open their hearts back up to the betrayer immediately, for others it takes a long time to feel secure enough to expose yourself to more possible heartache.<P>I honestly believe that the level of pain infidelity causes is directly related to how much the betrayed spouse loves their unfaithful partner. If your wife's love was as great for you as mine was for my husband, the level of pain your affair has caused must seem insufferable to her. It takes time, love, and patience to overcome this kind of hurt, and it might take years for you to see the level of trust and faith that you want. Unfortunately, that is just one of the many prices we all have to pay when a married person makes the choice to be unfaithful.<P>You seem to be doing the right things, but are they the right things FOR YOUR WIFE? Have you asked her what kind of things you can do to comfort her and to start replacing the trust and respect she has lost? Communication on this subject can sometimes be difficult, but is an absolute necessity when trying to survive infidelity.<P>I wish I could be more helpful to you. Please let me know if I can.<P>Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For those of you whose WSs really tried to make changes in their lives following the A, were you suspicious of them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, a big, big concern. And, this made me super-sensitive to any sign that things were going back the way they had been. I spent a lot of time pondering why the pre-affair relationship had been "good enough" (if far from perfect) that I was willing to stay committed to it, but after the affair, things had to be better than before, or I was not willing to recommit. Part of it is recognition that things really were not that good before, part is just self-protection, and part is (IMHO) that you've just paid a huge price, and the show (ie, the rest of the marriage) darn well better be worth it.<P>So, I was over-sensitive to any sign of going back to old bad habits for months. Things are now settling down...he is still (mostly) following thru on the new improved H, I am (mostly) following thru on the new improved W, and we are both beginning to (mostly) trust that the changes will stick.<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>I honestly believe that the level of pain infidelity causes is directly related to how much the betrayed spouse loves their unfaithful partner.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm, I'd never thought about it like that. I know this has made me realize how much I have always loved my husband, even though we had drifted apart emotionally prior to the affair. I just wish there was a little grain of hope in there somewhere--like the more we love each other the easier it will be to work through this, or something like that. (I know that's not the case.) I know my husband is trying, but at 4 months I am still frequently overwhelmed by the intensity of my emotions. I have always been a pretty laid back, easy going person, at least until I was put on this roller coaster. <P>He is doing everything "right", so to speak, but I still have doubts of his love, fear of this happening again, fear that he does still love her (in spite of what he says), an indescribable heaviness of heart that simply won't go away. We have even had other family crises to deal with during this "recovery" process, but the affair is always foremost in my mind. <P>Just be there for her, Taxman. I have told my husband that he can't overdo it, as far as giving reassurance and affection (or whatever her EN's are). <P><P>------------------<BR>"Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13:7

I am not suspicious (right now) that my H is in any way seeing the little B, but that's mainly because she is in a mental hospital. <P>I am most definitely afraid though that the few small things he is changing are going to be only temporary. <P>I fear that any time that the waters get a little rough if even only for a day that he will go back to her or someone else. He's already threatened to do so in arguments. <P>And on the amount of pain the BS feels being related to the amount of love she has for the WS, well even when things were really bad I thought I truely loved my H, didn't particulary like him though. Now that this is all out in the open, and I see how incapable he is of even empathizing with the pain I feel, I'm thinking perhaps I don't love him as much as I thought I did. Perhaps before I was confusing love with a perceived need on my part. <P>I now know that I don't need him at all. I was perfectly fine before him, I would be perfectly fine again without him. So now I ask myself, "Is this man really worth all the crap that I have put up with over the past five years? Do I really believe that things will change for the better for good?"<P>I'm still on the fence regarding this relationship. I'm just trying to keep my balance so that I don't fall off onto the wrong side.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Question from Taxman: For those of you whose WSs really tried to make changes in their lives following the A, were you suspicious of them? Did those changes "take" or did things go back to your pre-A relationship rather quickly? What could your WSs have done to reassure you on this score?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Hmmmm...well, at first, my H was very hesitant to make changes. He was gonna change when <B>HE FELT LIKE</B> changing and not just because some book/or counselor/or his wife <B>wanted</B> him to. So, based on this, I was very suspicious of EVERYTHING he was doing, saying, or any where he was going, etc.<P>Even when he DID begin to make changes, I was STILL suspicious...why is he trying? what is his goal? where is his heart? who is this really for? what is his purpose?...<P>Even after I began to *accept* that he was staying, I was still very leery as far as whether or not he could maintain the positive changes.<P>Did the changes *take*...ROTFLMAO ...sorry, not really funny is it? So far, so good...but it takes gentle reminders to keep him in tip-top form.<P>BTW, <B>BOTH</B> of us are working on improving OURSELVES as well as our marriage...and, yes, I need reminders too !!!<P>What would have helped? HONESTY. OPENESS. SHARING. <B>LISTENING TO AND THEN AFFIRMING MY EXPRESSED FEELINGS</B> without interruption. SOLID ATTEMPTS AT MEETING MY <B>EXPRESSED NEEDS</B>, as opposed to giving me what he *thought* I NEEDED. A WILLINGNESS to EXPRESS <B>HIS NEEDS</B> TO ME--so I KNEW HOW TO BEST MEET HIS NEEDS!! (I didn't want to *guess* at what his needs were anymore--obviously I *missed* the mark somewhere along the line, 'cause I thought I was doing great --I NEEDED him to tell me what he desired from me). <P>Sidebar: I've been in recovery for a little over a year now. My trust in him is STILL not there...BUT IT IS IMPROVING. However, just recently--within the past 2-3 weeks, has he begun to make the <B>CHANGES that ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING TO ME</B>. I don't UNDERSTAND why he thinks he *knows* what's best for me...why he thinks *more* is better????? For example, my H has bought me a new car, tons of new clothes, new furniture for the house, painted the interior of our home, continues to vacuum/wash/wax my new car for me every weekend, brings me flowers, etc (very nice, and very thoughtful).....BUT NONE OF THESE THINGS WERE ON MY NEEDS LIST!!!! These things are wonderful, beautiful and I've graciously accepted them because I know he's trying to *show* me his *faith* in our marriage ---but, he could have saved himself a ton of money and time...because all I EVER REALLY WANTED FROM HIM was 3 simple things:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>a phone call when he got to the office in the morning<LI>a phone call when he left the office in the evening<LI>and, for him to read SAA and work with me in applying the principles.</UL> <P>I think H finally *gets* it, as he had been doing these 3 things for the past 3 weeks...<P>...now, if only I could get him to share with me what HE REALLY, REALLY WANTS FROM ME .<P><B>Taxman:</B> Hope you find SOMETHING from this that you can use! Good Luck to you and your wife. I commend you for even taking the time to ask such a thoughtful question...but, honestly, <B>ask your WIFE!</B> Who knows...maybe she wants a CAR and her house painted??? !!!!<P>Peace, ~Marie<BR><P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

Thanks to all who replied:<P>Peppermint: Thanks for your offer of help. You've actually been quite a big help just by listening and trying to respond. I have asked my W what I can do to help her with this, and she indicated that the "doing small stuff" was important. I can tend to overdo it sometimes, which I think causes even more angst because it doesn't seem "natural," or from the heart. I fully expect that it will take a good long while to win back the trust that I so casually tossed aside.<P>Kam: Thanks for your post. I hear you insofar as my W is probably thinking that after all the crap we'd gone through, things had better change for the better. I know that she was pretty lonely over the past several years, and I'm both ashamed of that and determined to change it if I can.<P>Persevering: The A is foremost in my mind pretty much every day as well, and in hers, and we're about as far out from it as you are. I really hope that things continue to do better with you and your H. I think that I, too, in some ways, worry that this could happen again, that old patterns could resurface if I'm not careful enough. It's an awful thought.<P>PamO: Gracious, in a mental hospital? I'm not familiar with your story, though it sounds like a doozy. Genuinely sorry to hear that things are only so-so with your H, though it sounds as though you've come to some valuable and hard-won lessons about yourself in the process. I think both my W and I realized that we could live without each other through this. It was both scary, and sort of liberating. Made the choice to return to each other (or, my returning to her and her not running away) seem more meaningful, if less sweet than when we first took our vows.<P>OMM: Thanks so much. A very perceptive post. I had gotten tickets to a play my W had mentioned wanting to see a while ago, which she thought was nice, but then I spent the time during the dinner before the play worrying whether she was "happy" and then absolutely flipping out when we couldn't find a cab in time, etc. She started crying on the street, saying that she didn't want it to be so hard, didn't want me to try so hard to impress, etc. I hadn't met her primary need, which was just to spend relaxing time with me.<P>Again, thanks to all.

Hiya Tax,<P>You are asking for BS's responses to your question, but I couldn't help but pop my head in here too. There is a lot in your story that I can relate to. Reading about what the two of you went thru and some of what you were thinking at the time helped me more accurately place where my mind was.<P>I know about the dreams - my H used to have his share. He had dreams like that even BEFORE I had any of the As. He must've known what I was like before I even realized it. <P>I wonder if you ever have nightmares about committing adultery again? I did,and again, this was even before the bad stuff. I still have them, but this time they are even more upsetting.<P>I also recall wondering if my relationship w/ my H was how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. There were a number of elements I had been unhappy about. I did not view our relationship on the whole as negative and worthless. <P>Now that my As are over and as we live in the aftermath, I have also made significant changes. I no longer visit chat rooms. I do go to bulletin boards, but I don't get friendly with any males beyond the point of courtesy. Of course, all contact has ceased. I am no longer in withdrawl. I don't go out and party w/ my girlfriends all the time - I have been out maybe twice in this past year without my H. I feel I have been consistent with my behavior and these 'changes' are now simply part of my lifestyle.<P>The changes my H has made have also lasted. He spends more time with me, we are intimate more often, and he seems to be more sensitive to my feelings.<P>Only time will tell if the differences in your life will take root. Time has a way of bringing forth challenges for both WS and BS. Once you successfully face these challenges, then you are showing that you are on your way to accomplishing your new goals. It's like one test after another.<P>Like you, I can fathom my spouse's distrust in me, but I wonder if I will ever get any sense of real trust again. Today is one of those days when I pretty much am resigned to the fact that there never will be the same love or trust again.<P>Khyra <BR>