If you've read any of my recent posts, I'm in a rather chaotic state now. Plan A seemed like the right thing, there were some signs of some cracks in the fog/fantasy, but all in all, the OM thing seems to be continuing, WS (wife) is always making excuses to be out in the evenings, and doesn't share in the housework. So I'm having difficulty wondering what to do. Continue Plan A and say nothing assuming she is heavily in the fog, or tell her to share in the duties equally or leave...I'm not sure. Her house is available Nov 1, but now plans on leaving January. I got lots of advice in the past couple of days, some was to Plan B (she leave), some to continue Plan A, but make her do half of the housework duties etc.<P>Last week I was feeling quite good about "myself" and how I dealt with everything, I guess now I'm feeling more like a doormat, and sometimes that maybe she is just using me until she gets her life how she wants it. But then I get some notes and a kiss and it charges me up to Plan A more, although I wonder if that is just meant to keep me patient and happy.<P>Her position has always been that she "separated" (spirit only) first, so that she is free to do as she pleases (thus this OM would not be an affair). I know better. Of course we still sleep in the same bed. It is all way too weird. Sometimes I wonder if I can continue to have love units left. I put up with so much crap, and a big reason is for the kids.<P>I want the chance to recover together, because I believe we'd be stronger than we were before. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that this is possible, but then I see stories on MB and I just put those thoughts away. I figure that she has alot of realities to face in the coming few months, and that may trigger a change in her, but she is just so full of lies, deception, double lives, nasty streaks, etc. that it is so difficult to accept. You all know about this.<P>Am I an idiot for Plan Aing and hoping that she will eventually snap out of this? Is there a right way to do this? I wonder if she needs reality to really assess what she wants. Am I just in a low cycle of the rollercoaster? I think so. Do I let her stay and continue to rub her feet and back most days, and hope eventual reality helps, or do I say enough is enough? Sorry about repeating old stuff that many of you know already. I'm a bit confused now. Some days I don't want to take it anymore, and just do a bunch of things to open it all up....tell his parents the situation, forward love letter from me to my wife, by going in her account and sending to him, forwarding his emails to my account, letting her know all the sickening details that one of her friends that she doesn't talk to anymore told me, etc. But I know that would not likely help me at all.<P>Also, I read in SAA that when you know of the A, you should not put up with it, and tell spouse to end it immediately. This doesn't coincide with Plan A. What would Steve say about a situation like mine? I've requested an appointment because I want to discuss my situation anyway.<P>Maybe I'm just in a weird mood today.

Rick,<P>Sorry you are feeling low today. You have really been through it.<P>I wonder if there is a middle road to take. Your W seems quite comfortable right now coming and going as she pleases. Your call, but I think I would tell her with a big smile and lot's of love that you can't live as a threesome. Call her hand and suggest she go figure out her life and get back to you...you will wait as long as you can. Not a true Plan B, but a tough love kind of approach. "I love you, and want our marriage to work, but you can't have it both ways. Get back to me when you decide, in the meantime you need to live on your own."<P>She seems very cautious about moving, and a jolt of reality right now may do her some good. If she realizes Rick won't be there to help, she may question the wisdom of what she is doing.<P>I don't believe there can be a cookie cutter approach to what you are facing. I see Plans A&B as guidelines. Each of us has to decide how they relate to our individual circumstance. Each of us has to decide if we are making progress, or are simply a doormat. It is a really tough call.<P>As for the OM, I am an advocate of telling OM's W, but not going beyond that.<P>My 2 cents.<P>I am so sorry you are having to go through this. You sound like a great guy, dedicated to your marriage and children.<P>Bob

It's been awhile since I read SAA. But, as I recall it, there is nothing inconsistent with telling her you know of the affair, that it hurts you & the chance to rebuild your marriage, and ask her to stop. You do so without anger or disrespect (no LBs) nut you are honest.<P>Now, chances are, she will tell you she cannot stop yet. Then you continue Plan A for a limited time, then possibly go to Plan B.<P>Plan A does not mean that you are a mushroom (ie, kept in the dark & feed sh*t). Just that you maintain yourself...being a good decent person, and a love-worthy spouse despite all this.<P>I'm sure Steve will have more insight.<P>Hang in there. <P>Kathi

I don't know if I can add anything good, since you'll be talking to Steve, but here's some more insight, for what its worth:<P>Right now, she's having her cake and eating it too. The one thing that seemed to wake my W up and make her re-think her A, was facing the reality of life without me. I'm guessing here, but I'll bet she depends on you for all sorts of things that she won't miss until they're gone. My W depended on me to cook, clean, maintain her car, fix things on the computer, be a shoulder to lean on, listen to her trouble at work, help her in any way when she was down, etc. It's the little things we never notice about someone that we miss when they're gone.<P>I know the Harleys are against separation, but since she's planning on it anyway, I'd push for her to move out sooner rather than later. Probably the one thing she still needs is your friendship. I denied my W even that simple pleasure once she moved out, and it drove her crazy! <P>Until then, I'd stay in Plan A, but make it very clear that if the A continues, she will no longer be able to count on you for ANYTHING.

Rick<P>I have given you a lot of advice lately. You seem to be in the same stupor I was in 10 days ago. It is living in the same house, bed with your WS for the kids. You try everything to draw them back to you, but you get indifference and daily rejection. Am I getting close? <P>If you read my post "Setting boundries:my heart ..." you will see how I have been. My decision to plan A from afar is the only one I can agree with. I will not cease talking to my H for the kids sake, so A is all I have, but I do not have to do it with the rejection and dashed hopes daily. I felt like a dog waiting for a pat, only to be passed by for another day!<P>I have not followed through yet, but will soon. The big "rondevous" I thought they were having did not happen, so the big basis for my argument for immediate removal of his person, fell through. But it won't take long. The daily phone calling to her and no talking to me will put me in action really fast.<P>I love him, but I have had it. He is playing us both(me and OW)-though I would never have expected it of him with his upbringing- But there it is. he is someone I hardly recognise as my H. But love does overcome all--though I readily discount that he is "in love" with her. Okay I am a hypocrit, but he was mine first and I have the marriage certificate and the ruined belly from carrying HIS children(she cannot have any.) I earned the right to keep my marriage, no matter what he is going through right now. I am worthy, and he better figure it out quick! <P>This thing is really pi*sing me off!!! Some men I have talked to say MLC can last up to 2-5 years. No friggin way!! I won't do that--but when he comes back to reality he will realize he let the best thing go that he has EVER had. And ruined his kids abilities to trust love and their parents....<P>My new advice for you, Rick, is to force her to move in her house in November as planned. If she is not ready do not take it. I think she has made her intentions pretty clear. She is using both of her men. Take the upper hand for once, respect yourself. Tell her out of respect for yourself that you insist that she keep her intial agreement when to move out. That you are finally protecting yourself and your emotions and your (remnants) of love for her. If she will not, call the movers and have them pack up and move her. Plan B. <P>I'm sorry it has come to this. I will pray for you.

Rick<P>Your situation seems so much like mine it is uncanny. One question though, you mention that you receive little notes, hugs, etc. Has your wife started saying that she loves you? The reason I ask is that this has been a major change in my wife after 8 weeks of meeting her ENs. Until the last week or so she would never utter the words that she did even after me saying it several times a day to her. She now initiates affection with these words often, and kisses and hugs.<P>Although the affair continues I believe Plan A is effective ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR WIFE IS STILL LIVING AT HOME. It gives you so much control over the situation and no doubt P***** off the OM immensly. Once she moves out he has so much more control over the situation. I will give you an example,I know for a fact that the OM wanted to ring W at home so they could talk anytime. She refused his request much to my relief.<BR>I know it is tough and you feel like a doormat but if you can hang in there as long as you can with PLan A as it definately has an accumulative effect if you are striking the right ENs.<P>Just my 2 cents worth.<P>------------------<BR>

Rick<P>A little more to add and to also bring it back to the top.<P>A couple of things to consider before you make a decision.<P>1/. How badly do you want your marriage back? Enough to keep in plan A?<P>One of the main concepts of the Harleys is that Plan A needs to continue until such time as you feel your love bank is depleted to the stage that your taker is likely to take over and you are likely to start LBing. Until such time continue to work on yourself and plan A. <P>I found Plan A particularly difficult in the early stages where I got no response from my W whatsoever for the fullfilment of her needs THIS HOWEVER HAS CHANGED.<P>You seem to be having quite a task with the children and household chores and I imagine that this would be having a dramatic effect on your love bank. I know it must be very difficult to hang in but if you can it may pay dividends later on. It really depends on how much you want the marriage back. Once she is gone from the home YOUR CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION IS DIMINISHED CONSIDERABLY.<P>I feel for you and I understand completely what you are going through. This is heart wrenching stuff for the BS.<P>Just imagine hbowever if you were succesfull in the long run, how good that would make you feel to know that you were the strong one through all this and were able to pull your marriage back together. You would no doubt feel it the biggest accomplishmant of your life.<P>Just some food for thought.<P>

Rick,<P>I have been following your journey and have always told myself "I wish I had the patience of that man." I know exactly what you feel about the doormat thing. Your W sounds a lot like mine.<P>How old are your children? Did your W always want children or was it something she all of sudden "wanted?" Do you think she would want to be primary custodian? Would she want to move relatively far away from where you live now? Is she close to her family and do they live close by?<P>Sorry for all these questions, but maybe it's time to start thinking about protecting yourself legally. All summer, I did all the things you've been doing; the laundry, the cooking, the household upkeep, being essentially both the mother and the father while W was out having a grand old time. She could care less if D was kneeling in the driveway wailing while she pulled out in her Mercedes in her new seductive wardrobe and gold dripping off of her. I came to realize that my wife did not have a passion for parenting and probably never will. She only wants our daughter to use as a pawn with which to control me and because her "christian" family would excommunicate her if she ceded D to me.<P>Is your wife an extra extrovert? Does she use charm and seductiveness to get what she wants in life? I guess my wife was always this way and I had come to accept it because of her apparent devotion to me for so long. These same traits were the things that ultimately made her stray and I still sit here wondering if she'll ever come back to reality.<P>I guess I've heard alot about the type of person you are, but little about your wife outside of her behaving as someone who is "in love" with another. She may have been predisposed to something like this.<P>For me, realizing all this was painful at first, but little by little it helps me come to grips with why this all happened. I am not blameless, but I believe my W would have strayed no matter what. I was told from a very reliable source that soon after our D came into the world, my W decided that the "home and family" life was not for her. She is a wanderer by nature and probably regrets ever becoming a parent.<P>One thing I must say you have going for you. I have not heard you say anything that has come from your W in the way of her saying she wants "out." I don't mean out in the sense of moving out of the building, rather out of the marriage. Is this true?<P>If so, maybe a dose of reality IS what she needs. Tell her to leave in the correct MB way as the others above have said. But first ask yourself everything above, and remember above all else (and I know you do), put your children first right now.<P>Jay

Rick,<BR>All I can say is I KNOW THE FEELING and it stinks! There are days when we feel that progress is being made, and then there are days that are plain awful. I've often felt like such a shmuck, it's not funny. As you know my husband is living with OW. At first I was terrified by that idea. I though "what if they find out that they are perfect for each other and everything works for them?" Well, let me tell you...that is NOT the case. In my case I believe that reality is bringing him around. He now actually missed me, before I could just be taken for granted (always around doing everything). He is starting to realize what he's missing. He now lives in a house that's not his own, with people who are not his family. If you read SAA, there is a paragraph that says something like "most times if you give an affair a chance by letting go, it will self-destruct and fizzle out sooner than you think." It may not be overnight, and I can tell you from experience, that those weeks or months will be tough ones. However, the outcome is the important thing. I am Plan Aing from a distance and hope to **** it works. It seems to. Of course, I'm the forever optimist. Only time will tell. Sometimes a separation can help. Just be sure to continue to be "the more appealing choice." Also, it doesn't hurt to show signs of self-respect (in a non-LB way, of course). All the more appealing you will be! Is there a possibility for you to spend some time with friends on occasion? Pretend you're having a good time even when you're not! A solid plan A is a good foundation for anything else to come and you seem to be doing just that. Keep going and don't fear that separation is the end of it, it may the beginning of something that has to happen to bring her around. <BR>AR<BR>

Thanks everyone for responding. I'll answer a few questions you asked.<P>inlimbo:<P>No, she hasn't said she loves me. Just notes saying how patient I've been, thanking me for being an awesome father, and that she is confident we can "at least be friends". A kiss for making breakfast. Not much else. Just a couple of months ago, said on the phone "you know I do love you". Never since though.<P>I do want the marriage badly. We have 2 children, and there were lots of good things between us. Just lost the togetherness the last couple of years. As for the love bank diminishing, it does feel that way sometimes, but a hug from her and "niceness" flips my switch again and I become warm inside. I figure there is enough left.<P>And I do think about what an accomplishment it would be if it ever works. I have to give it my best shot. Thanks for mentioning that.<P>catamount82:<P>Children are 2.5 and 4.5. She always wanted children and a family. We've agreed on joint custody (for the kids). I'd want them myself, she might too, but I can't see her doing it because she'd have to stay home too much. She wouldn't move. We both agree on that. Family close by. I'm closer to them now then she is. She mostly ignores them. Can't justify the whole thing. They all think I should have custody. She isn't an extrovert, but is talkative and somewhat outgoing. She considers herself to have been in need of this lifestyle for awhile. She was a homebody when young, always helping her family at home, never went out. I think that was part of her problem. Missed out on that, always said it was silly to need it, but all of a sudden early this year, bang, needed to go out and socialize. But that coincided with ENs not being met. I didn't know that then. Of course, when she started going out, and told me it was just something she needed to get out of her system, I allowed it, thinking I was being the supporting husband. But of course that just led to trouble, and then one day an announcement that we had to separate. Pretended that there was no one, but her cell bills confirm that OM was in the picture in the few weeks before this. Then her music interests, tolerance for stupid behavior in people, and basically everything changed. She flipped her personality around. She figures it is just the new her, or that is what she says.<P>And as you mention, she never says anything about divorce. Before I found MB, I would mention that she wants it, and she'd say "I never said anything about divorce". And has never now either. But I know that back then, she was thinking OM was her answer to the future (one of her friends told me everything...she is disgusted with her so opened up to me). I've heard from someone else that she kind of alluded that if things don't work out, she has me....but I don't know how reliable that info is....it was more of an opinion. She always said that she just needs to be alone and have time....yet it was really to be with OM from what I see.<P>Anyway, I'm rambling now. Thanks to you all. You respond alot to me and I really appreciate it more than I can say.