I am feeling very desperate It is almost 17 months since D-Day and I am still struggling-daily-all day-with my situation.<P>To brief anyone who needs it here goes-<P>My H and best friend had an A for two years. It wasn't full time from what they say but I am sure in the beginning it was often and dwindled over time. My H told me-I did NOT discover on my own. H and I are together still-he is extremely remorseful and sorry for his poor decisions.<P>I have been through so many emotions I don't think I feel much any more-other than depression.<P>I am on anti-anxiety drugs and anti-depressants. A week and a half ago at the doctor my blood pressure was up-never had problems before. Now I feel as though my heart "lurches" and then I get dizzy all day long.<P>I am 43. This is my second marriage. First one never should have been. I always thought H and I were happy and never expected this to happen since we had both been through it in our first marriages.<P>My problem is that so far I have not been able to forgive. I don't feel angry any more. But forgiving means saying it is OK-or that it is over and done with and I won't think about it ever again. I know I can't say that <P>Also-I miss this person who was supposed to be my friend. I thought we were great friends. Was I wrong all along? People say she obviously wasn't much of a friend but I just can't accept that. We went to Disneyland together as families. We camped together. We watched each others kids. Had dinners together. The works.<P>She apologized a couple of times. I had two phone conversations with her during the first 3 montsh-I think-and then she was also at this web site. At that time I wasn't ready to hear any apologies. I don't say this to be mean-I was just in a state of total numbness.<P>I would have run like the wind to this friend had she not been the OW. I have been completely lost since June 1, 1999. I feel like I do not want to try forming new friendships so this can't ever happen again-at least not with a friend.<P>Also-I just want to die. I am NOT suicidal. I do NOT believe in taking my own life. But to be perfectly honest I have lost the will to live. I do not any longer enjoy life.<P>I know I sound like a baby. I don't mean to. I had a rather rotten childhood and then spent 13 1/2 years married to a loser. I think I am just tired of trying. I feel like I am turning in to a very mean person. If I don't like myself then how can I expect someone else to like me? I can't!<P>All I am asking is for someone who has been where I am to please tell me what to do. The wall in front of me is a brick one-built solidly.<P>BTW-if you read Ann Landers today-her advice to the gal whos best friend slept around with her ex boyfriend was for her to forgive and forget and stop spending her energy on the OW. I wonder if Ann has ever been through what we here at MB have gone through......................I want to write her my feelings!<P>Thanks for any help you can give-and I am sorry to be such a downer. <P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Dear Heartache,<P>You're not a downer. I have been where you are and at times I find myself there again. This is the place to bare your soul, tell us about all of it, we understand and we hurt for you.<P>You have a perfect right to be as hurt and in pain as you are, and as distrusting as you feel. That was your friend and you H ... HOW COULD THEY!!!<P>You don't deserve to feel this much unhappiness, to not have a will to live. To feel this much dispair.<P>They were wrong ... they know that. It sounds like they've ended it and your H wants his marriage with you. Do you want the marriage with him still? Can you really forgive, can you open your heart and try to understand that what happened wasn't about you, it was about your H. He didn't do this diliberately to hurt you, he did it because he was in need and didn't know how to communicate that to you. It was his problem that ultimately affected and hurt you and your marriage.<P>Do you and your H know what it will take to rebuild? It will take so much courage to do this, and you both have to help each other thru it. Can you talk to your H about your depression? Is he empathetic and loving to you right now?<P>Are you still having heart palpatations? Do either of your arms feel numb? Are you naseaus? <P>Please calm down Honey and tell me more about what you're feeling.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited October 27, 2000).]

Hey you!<P>I'm home now and getting ready to write to ya!! <P>I'm sending you the biggest ((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))) I can from 3000 miles away!!!<P>Love ya,<BR>Mitzi

Dear Heartache,<P>I know you are in so much pain. Please know we are thinking of you and care very much about how you feel right now.<P>You will be allright! You are experiencing the same feelings so many of us have felt. You are not alone, if that helps to know.<P>You might want to read the post by Patient Love posted earlier today... I cna't think of the topic just now. Look for her name, the topic is so much what you are referring to. It might help you to read it.<P>Come on now girl, pull yourself together. I know this has been devastating for you. Your best friend, I can't even begin to associate with this... I thank G. I didn't know the OW.<P>Hang in there, we love you and remember you have value and worth, what they did is not about YOU!!! Keep reminding yourself of that. <P>Cathy

The post topic is The ever changing mood of the surviving betrayed spouse! Read it!!<P>Cathy

Heartache,<BR>My heart aches for you! Please don't be so hard on yourself. Recovery takes TIME, and the amount of time is different for all of us.<BR>You were betrayed by TWO people you loved!<BR>It was hard enough for me to get over being betrayed by one person, God forbid, two.<P>When I found out about my husband's affair,It took me YEARS to realize that you never really get over it, but there are things you can do.<P>1)Give yourself time. I used to tell myself to "snap out of it" and "get over it". But that is not easy to do. I was angry with myself for not being a good enough wife to keep my husband from straying, and I added to my self-hate by telling myself that I should be able to "just get over it" I didn't realize that I needed to give myself time to grieve. Heartache, I know that it does not seem possible now, but IT WILL GET BETTER!<P>2)Take one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time. I know this sounds crazy, but I would wake up in the morning and make the DECISION to have a good day, even though my heart was breaking. Throughout the day I would find myself thinking about my problems and the hopelessness of it all and I would make a CONCIOUS CHOICE to GET BUSY and change my thoughts to positive ones. The more I chose not to dwell on my problems, the better I felt about ME! I still had no control over what my husband did, but I was beginning to regain control of myself! The more I chose not to throw a "pity party", the happier I became. <P>3)Get counseling, if possible. If you don't want to form new friendships right now, talk to someone you don't have to worry will hurt or dissappoint you. Sometimes it helps just to talk---and I think it is better to talk to someone who does not know either of you. That way, if you decide to work things out, none of the people you come in contact with every day have to deal with all the negative things they know about your marriage.<P>4)Try to see the good in your husband instead of the bad. My husband did not tell me about his affair. I would have much rather he did. Speaking the truth, to me, shows RESPECT for you (he is not trying to make you think you are crazy or blame you), and he realizes that what he did was wrong! <BR>If he truly is remorseful, he may be willing to agree to become more accountable in order to make you feel more secure, or he may be willing to go to counseling. If you want to give him a second chance, then take steps to repair your marriage, even though you may hate him right now. Make yourself Like him and one day you may surprise yourself and find you do.<P>I am no expert. I can only tell you what worked for me. I feel stronger and more in control than I have in a long time. I still have bad days, but they are becoming less frequent. Is my marriage fixed? No, but I am still committed to it and to my husband and I will give it my best shot. But I think one thing I have learned is that even if I found out that he is involved in another affair, I am a stronger person than I was before and I am going to be OK, with or without him.<P>Please take care of yourself heartache.<BR>We are here for you!

{{{{{{{{{{{Heartache}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Have you thought about counceling with either Steve or Jennifer?<P>I don't know what else to add to the others comments.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Heartach,<P>Sounds like an appropriate name for most folks that have been here. I know I felt that way many times during the past two years. I was pretty depressed for the first year. That was the year my wife was having her affair. Unfortunately, I never tried the antidepresants. What helped me get through it was basically learning to take care of myself and learning that I was going to be ok. During my wifes affair, it was kind of an on again off again kind of thing. She would tell me it was off, then a couple months later, I caught her and the other man naked in his apartment. Suprisingly, this wasn't as hard on me as the first time I found out about the affair. After that it supposedly was off again. Then about six months later on my daugthers 7th birthday, my wife told me the whole story. There was alot more going on for the year year then I had realized. This set me back again, but it wasn't as tough to take as the first two times. Anyway, the point of my rambling here is that I learned that each time I went through the pain, I grew. It hurt like hell, but the second and third time wasn't as bad. I also started to realize as the year went on that if I was going to survive all this I needed to start finding some value in myself. I relized that even if my wife didn't find me attractive or found somebody else more attractive, I was a valuable person. If she choose to leave me, I was going to be ok. It motivated me to get myself into counciling, deal with issues in my life that had been keeping me from growing (in my case it is alcholism). I learned to start focusing on living my life the way I wanted to, not how I thought I should to make my wife happy, or make other people think highly of me. I started to live my life the way I knew was right. Anyway, it has been about another year since my wife last saw her other man. My daughter is going to be 8 in December. There have been some pretty depressing days this year. I am still not sure where my marriage is going. But surviving what I did last year has taught me alot about myself. I know that whatever happens to me, I am going to be ok. I am going to still have crappy days and maybe weeks(been haveing one this week, contemplating seperating from my wife), but I also know I am going to have good days and good weeks and a great life despite the tough times. I also know I sure do enjoy the good days a heck of a lot better now then I used to. I am sure that the pain your going through now will help you to feel good about life to. It don't make it any easier, but it does get better. <P>God's strength and much patience to you.<P>Tim

Forgiveness is not about it being OK or that you won't think about it again.<P>Forgiveness is nothing like that. If you think forgiveness is getting in your way, and that truly is your problem, then try reading The Choosing to Forgive Workbook or a Forgiveness book by Smedes.<P>Forgiveness ultimately is something you do for you, not because the other deserves or desires it. <P>Forgiveness does not condone bad behavior, nor does it erase it.<P>It is not a proclaimation, but a journey and an attitude.<P>Real forgiveness takes strength, not weakness.<P>It is so unfair what happened to you. I can not say that strongly enough. You did not deserve what you were dealt.<P>But you still need to take ownership of your reactions and how you live the rest of your life. Despair and bitterness, while understandable, is not what you want or deserve. <P>To take back your life and live it well, for yourself and for all who love you, that is what you deserve, and only you can do.

I am so sorry for your pain! My H. had an affair, but I did not know the OW. Later we became friends, after this affair. You must understand, that God created you, loves you, and is for you to hold on too. I know how it feels to not want to live. Not suicidal, but not taking care of yourself. Not caring if you get out of bed. in 1984 I lost my leg, and I felt like I should have died in the accident. But now, even though my H. of 17 years had an on line affair, I have three beautiful children, a wonderful job, and a fulfilling life full of friends, laughter, and hope. You have that inner strength, but you need to take care of yourself! Go shopping, go get a new hair do, go change the livingroom around, change your daily routine, and improve on it! Volunteer your time at a local school, hospital, and other places that will help you feel productive. This is all the help I can offer, but smile, you are important, to me, to all of us here on MB. Good luck! gn

Heartache,<P>I am wondering how long you have been on the anti-anxiety drugs. The reason I ask is because I was on xanax for 1 year to try and get my emotions under control in all this and found out that they are very addicting and even when you are on them you can experience withdrawal symptoms even while still taking them, because your brain is begging for more and some of the symptoms which occur are high blood pressure, dizziness, depression, feeling like your heart is lurching, a lack of emotions and feeling like you want to die, even though you know you would never attempt it. There are many drugs which are in this family which all do the same thing.<P>I am not trying to scare you,but your post just hit me real hard and I recognized exactly what you are experiencing. I have been off them for 10 months and I am still going through some real bad stuff. They are only meant to be taken for 3 weeks and after that your brain gets addicted. I am now on anti-depressants alone and the difference is night and day.<P>I feel like I have to tell you because many doctors do not know what the affects of these drugs do to you in the long run.<P>If you are interested, post back to me and I will give you some web site addresses I have with lots of information on it or I will give you my e-mail address if you would like to talk to me personally about it.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lilly

I'm sorry for what you're going through heartache.<P>Have you read any of the books or gotten counseling? It 's very tough to forgive, and I think you can't forget. This will be a part of your life now. You need to work through all the stages of this before you get better.<P>Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting, but it does signal a little closure on an event. Is the A over? Has your husband stopped contact? <BR>Again, I think counseling could really help here.<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

heartache,<P>I am so sorry for your 'heartache'. It must feel terrible to be betrayed by the two people in your life you should have been able to trust the most. I as you had a cheating spouse. The other woman came in and out of our home for the last five years as a 'friend' to both of us, so I thought. Turns out my x and she had been hitting it heavy during the late 80's and early 90's per her confession to me two years ago. Yes,after discovery I found out there were others too. Ugh!<P>Please know you are not alone, there are many of us 'casualties' out here ready to support you for as long as it takes for your heart and mind to to heal. It may seem impossible today but you will see the sunshine again.<P>You are in my prayers.<P>Ragamuffin<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>By Heartache: BTW-if you read Ann Landers today-her advice to the gal whos best friend slept around with her ex boyfriend was for her to forgive and forget and stop spending her energy on the OW. I wonder if Ann has ever been through what we here at MB have gone through......................I want to write her my feelings!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Dear Heartache: I am sorry for your pain. And, yes, being betrayed by your H and your bestfriend seems, well, unforgivable.<P>You will, one day, be ready and able to forgive. Forgiving DOES NOT mean that you approve of what was done--it simply means that you accept that as humans, sometimes the people that you love the most make poor decisions--you acknowledge that your H and OW are not perfect...that they CHOSE to betray you--NOT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, but because they were *over taken* by selfishness/greed, and most likely immaturity. Perhaps it would help for you to think of it as forgiving their actions...versus labeling it as forgiving "adultery" (????).<P>Perspective is a very POWERFUL thing. If you can get beyond, "They HURT ME"...and instead realize that THEY HURT THEMSELVES...you will ultimately do yourself a huge FAVOR.<P>I also believe, very strongly, that it is possible to forgive in stages. Start by picking some small aspect of the A...AND CHOOSE to let go of this one *piece*. If you view it as a wall, imagine it being one brick that gets knocked out of the wall. <P>SEE!!!! Now that one brick is gone...YOU CAN SEE A SLIVER OF SUNSHINE!!!! <P>Heartache: Work your way up to a WINDOW of SUNSHINE...then work your way up to a door...<P>...AND WHEN YOU CAN FINALLY SEE THE DOOR...OPEN THE DOOR AND WALK OUT INTO THE WORLD AND RECLAIM YOUR LIFE!<P>Peace, ~Marie<BR><P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

Dear Heartache: If you would like some help with *reshaping* your thoughts...changing your negative thought process into POSITIVE THOUGHTS please let me know.<P>I will post a *mind* exercise that helps you stay focused on the present.<P>Best Luck to you! ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But forgiving means saying it is OK-or that it is over and done with and I won't think about it ever again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No it doesn't. Forgiving means putting the anger behind you and not letting it eat you up inside.<P>It will never be okay and you will never forget. Doesn't mean you have to let it eat at you though. It'll come with time. Forgiveness is something you do for you.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Dear Heartache,<P>I am also 43 years old, and I feel that this affair happened at the worst possible time in my life. In my case the OW was not my best friend, but the wife of someone I have known my whole life and saw everyday. Our children are very close, and we live very near each other. I really believe it would be easier if she were a stranger that I never had to see again.<P>Chris is right about forgiveness. It does NOT say that what happened is okay or that you will never thing about it, talk about it, or be hurt by it again. Dr. Phil McGraw says that forgiveness is something you do for yourself, and I agree. My forgiveness for my husband took some time the first time, and it is taking even longer this time, but it is happening day-by-day. Because I made it MY CHOICE to forgive, I can do it even if he and the other woman may not deserve it.<P>The OW does not care if I am hurt, angry, and miserable, so my pain, anger, and misery is only hurting ME. My husband cares about my feelings, but he cannot begin to understand how horrible this is. If he did, I really don't think he could live with it.<P>I began to forgive by praying everyday that God would help me to let go of my bad feelings and forgive those who had mistreated me. By letting go of the bad feelings, I am leaving more room for the good feelings that I need to get through this.<P>I also agree that you need to have your mediations reevaluated to see if some changes would help you. I wishe there was more I could say or do, but please know that you are not alone in the way you are feeling, and that things can get better for you.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Dear Heartache, <BR> I'm so sad for you and would like to offer some words of comfort and reassurance, but I know there are no words to ease the pain you are feeling...I know that because I feel exactly as you do. <P> My H's affair last several years and produced a child with whom we have weekly contact (along with OW, of course). I have known for 2 years. Less than one year after DDay #1, I learned they had resumed A when I thought we were recovering. That nearly killed me, but H swore it was over for good, etc. So for the 15 months since DDay #2 we have been rebuilding, TRULY rebuilding, I think.<P> I still have days or several days in a row when I am in as much despair as I was right after DDay #1. I sob all day long, cannot function, eat, or sleep. I have dizzy spells, trouble breathing, faintness, etc. I rage at my H, etc. It's terrible. Afterward, I feel so bad about my behavior and ashamed of myself. Sometimes my H is hurt, but understands; sometimes HE becomes angry right back and we have a terrible fight. It's all so ugly. But somehow that passes and we pick up where we left off with recovery.<P>I know these aren't particularly words of comfort for you, but I hope you can find some comfort in knowing that others have been/are in the same predicament. I know our situations are different, but the pain of the betrayal by people you once trusted is devastating. <P>I have read a lot about forgiveness and have learned that forgiveness is NOT saying to the person who wronged you that "what you did is ok" which is what I also felt true forgiveness was. True forgiveness is saying, in essence, "I give up the right to try to hurt you because you hurt me" and "I no longer give my bitterness about what you did the power to rule my life." To be honest, I don't think I've achieved those definitions of forgiveness yet, even though I want to and know my H can't change history.<P>So, I try to take one day at a time (or one HOUR at a time, some days) and hope and pray that one day I can find peace. Until then, I visit MB almost daily. Please hang on, dear Heartache. Some days YOU will be the one trying to comfort someone else who is feeling more pain than you are that day, and so it goes.<P>Love, <BR>annie <p>[This message has been edited by anniem (edited October 27, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But forgiving means saying it is OK-or that it is over and done with and I won't think about it ever again. I know I can't say that <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I see others have already picked up on this, but it jumped out at me when I read your thread. No, that is not what forgiveness means at all.<P>For me, there were 3 people to forgive; my h and two OWs. The OWs have never contacted me and asked for forgiveness. In this case, I choose (as others have said) to let go of the anger and let God deal with them as He sees fit.<P>In my h's case, where he has sought forgiveness, it is a bit more than with the OWs. I am moving toward a full restoration of our relationship, but not there yet. We NEVER forget.<P>I could have written your post, it's scary. So, I can only write as one who is there now, not been there and moved on.<P>Marie is right. I will think about what she said.<P>How are things with your h? Is he now doing a good job? Mine is showing a real interest in my feelings for the first time in my life. Kinda scary.<P>This is the most important thing I have to say:<P>To find the will to live again, I have to fix the relationship with MYSELF! I was just thinking of having a journal with conversations with myself.<P>Phil McGraw says we are our own "Life Manager" and it sometimes helps to think of the LM as a separate person. I can't fire her, so I need to make peace with how she has managed my life to date. (I'm not too happy with it obviously). This is where counselling with someone good could help a lot, but we still have to do our own work.

Dear Heartache, <P>Many of us have been where you are...and I sgree, it seems so hard to get over this kind of pain. <BR>But, remember, unless youcan forgive, you will be forever a slave to the thoughts and emotins you have right now. And they will eat you up!! They will stop you from healing, and growing. <BR>The drugs you are on are a good thing, they will help you to adjust. <BR>I strongly sugest counseling with the Harleys. Even though I did not counsel with them a long time, they helped me forgive. <BR>Then, possibly with your husband. <BR>Remember, you have the oportunity to save your marriage. Many of us don't anymore. And, it is worth saving!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan