I'm sorry - I meant to address this in my other post, but it kind of took on a life of its own (and I'm proud of every word of it, too!).<P>Lora, you should not be upset by Nellie's post - she was not talking about people who are here trying and wondering and agonizing. She is talking about those who have basically made up their minds what they are going to do and post here in a weak attempt at giving us the opportunity to change their minds. She is not talking about people who have worked on everything they can about themselves. And she is not saying that the three week divorces are anyone's fault other than the legal system's. Please don't take it personally unless you truly feel that you haven't given your marriage the chance it deserves. And understand that, when you have been in this game for a couple of years, the impatience of some we see who have given up and gotten a divorce after only a couple of months or even weeks of "D-day" is so incredibly frustrating. And insulting if those same people berate us for working in different time frames than they are/have...<P>The only problem I see when people "hang on" for a long period is if those people haven't made any changes in their own behaviors (because we ALL have improvements to make - even the best of us - I know no perfect person) and simply use the MB (and other) concepts to bemoan that their spouse has only grown further away from them. This is something that requires listening and openness to ideas that are different from those we may have held for a long time. Something that requires the ability to understand that just because something is outside of your <I>a) range of experience or b) belief system or c) personal preferences</I> does not make it <B>wrong</B> - only <B>different</B>.<P>If you KNOW that a decision to give up your marriage is the BEST one for you, your children and your spouse, then do what you must do - but don't expect all of us to share in the same philosophy. If you have any doubt, then caution is the better part of valor. As long as you are not making your own life and those of others miserable, then moving slowly in any direction is the RIGHT thing to do. And it is the thing that will leave you with the lifelong knowledge that you did EVERYTHING you could do to turn it around.<P>Our best effort is all we can give. If that does not get us the results we wanted, that doesn't mean we have failed, just that we have to walk down a different path. And we then can use all of the things we learned when the time comes again for us.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Lora,<P>I guess I don't really need to respond, since Terri did such a great job <P>I have become increasingly frustrated lately, especially on the Divorced/Divorcing forum, with what seems to be the increasing frequency of posts from people who sound like they are trying to justify what they are doing. On many occasions, I will have read only a few sentences before I think, "They're having an affair" and my suspicions are confirmed two or three posts later. There also seem to be a lot of people who start dating before the spouse's side of the bed gets cold, and some whose posts sound like sour grapes to me. <P>I don't know how long I will "wait". Maybe forever. But I know that I will always love my H. I think he most likely still loves his first wife, whom he has not seen for almost three decades, and that does not bother me. If I were ever to date again, and if the man said anything on the order of his ex-wife meaning no more to him than as the mother of his children, I would run as fast as I could in the other direction. <P>

Terri,<BR>Thank you for the link. BTW how do you put links into your post? <P>I am truly amazed at the way you seem to say exactly what I am thinking after reading others' posts. I am sure I could not be quite as eloquent with my words though. <P>I just wanted to put my two cents in. <P>Thanks<BR>Jeff<BR>

You have yet to address Kayleigh question? How do you force your spouse to work/stay in the marriage? In no fault states especially you literally have no choice. How about a H/w who cheats on you continually? <P>

I've read through the links, and I think they are a wonderful source of information for those like all of us here who would have loved to have some preventative measures taken before entering into marriage, to ensure that there is more of an understanding of how truly serious our marriage vows really are.<P>But still, that doesn't address the feelings of the WS after the fact. You see, my H has had two affairs (one EA/one PA over the course of several years), and we're still together. I don't think it's fair for some to issue blanket statements regarding those of us who have been through hell and highwater to keep our marriages intact and still, due to our WS decision, have seen it come to a very sad ending.<P>We cannot force another into doing what we want them to do, even though they have entered into something as serious as marriage. We love them, want them to stay, yet they choose another path. So do we hold them hostage and make them go through motions that they will not concede to, by force of law? I guess that's what I'm wondering..what are the alternatives here? The preventative measures before entering into marriage are before the fact, this unfortunately is not our choice. We have/had no choice in our WS actions, they chose their route. We can stick by them for so long before we endanger our own physical/mental health (STD's, emotional abuse, etc.) I guess that's my point, it's not up to us to save them, they have to save themselves and make their own choices.<P>Good luck to you terri.<BR>

Thanks Terri and Nellie for your responses.<BR>I guess I am tired and with no end in sight, I just wonder if I can continue. I have been in plan A for a year now, and I dont even know if we have had D day since H continues to deny. I can not live in this place forever and I dont want to be always in love with him if it is over for him. I have a problem with self esteem anyway and this has really knocked me down. I am not as strong as some of you, just stubborn I think. Maybe I find I want more from a marrige then we ever had before and I'm not sure that is possible with my H. His total lack of communication seem a very big problem to overcome.<P>Sorry for the rambling. I aprreciated hearing your responses.<BR>Lora

Terri,<BR>I have been sitting here thinking about your post and my reply. <BR>First of all, I am sorry if I insulted you that was never my intention. Also I am not trying to get any response out my H indirectly or otherwise, I must admit I have not been able to figure that out.<P>I thought that you had sent that other letter to the lawyer and now that I realize you didn't, I agree that there needs to be a reply. <P>I am a little concerned that it could be twisted later on. Lawyers have a way of making things appear in their good light.<P>I have an idea that I am not sure that will be acceptable to you or one that you would even consider but here it goes anyway.<P>Have you thought about replying to the separation agreement with a revised agreement made by you and your lawyer?<P>I know that sounds outragious considering that you don't want a D, but like you said it is D papers. And it would protect you from any debts that he could build up.<P>I didn't want a D either, but I did do that so that I would be protected and so would our children. I know that you don't have kids but there is still yourself to consider. <P>It was strange; I told my H I was going to file for separation, I did, he called that night and asked me what I did that day, I told him and he was still shocked and totally surprised when he was served. <BR>The fact is that he didn't believe me, and it put things in a new realm of reality for him.<P>I would think that if your reply to these papers were your own set of papers, that he would be shocked as I think it would be the last thing that he would expect. Who knows it might even shake him up a little.<P>I would also think that there should be no reason why in these papers you can not deplict the situation as being what you see it as. State your case and that although you are trying to honor the request from your H with this agreement that you in no way share his desire for it.<P>Just a thought. I have read many things that say to the unexpected. And this would be benefittial to you too.<P>Just another option but I realize that this is your life and that this is a hard time and a hard decision. Just another option.<P>Genie

Thanks everyone. I decided to hold off, based on a few things, including your suggestions. I apologize for being grumpy last week, I was sick and didn't realize it until the weekend (which I slept through half of).<P>Genie, it's not a bad idea, but I'm not quite there yet. I'll definitely keep it in mind.<P>Talk to you all soon!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri, Glad you are feeling better. I wish you had posted your contractual agreement. I would love to know what it states.<P>His lawyers will, if at all possible, turn that letter against you. Don't trust them, they work close with the WS and will do anything to win, they are money mongrels, you know!!! My neice has been through 4 years of living hell with a WS and the divorce proceedings.<P>Take care, CT

The agreement itself is very long ... but I can sum up the basics:<P>1) We both agree to separate because of our "unhappy differences" <P><B>NOT!</B> We don't BOTH agree on this at all!<P>2) I have to carry him on my benefits package from work.<P><B>IMAGINE THAT!</B> I am supposed to provide him with health, dental and prescription coverage while he is living with the slug?<P>3) Any previous verbal agreements between us don't count.<P><B>LOL!!!</B> Y'mean like "I promise to love, honor and ..." uh-uh. Y'mean like "I'm going to put $5,000 in trust for you so you can use it to buy a house." Y'mean like "I'll give you $50 a week so you can pay all your expenses." Of course I want to discount those...<P>4) He is not required to provide any maintenance money to me at all, since we are both employed.<P><B>Yeah. Right.</B><P>5) I am required to pay my own attorneys fees.<P><B>NOPE</B> I wouldn't need one if he hadn't left. I wouldn't need one if he hadn't taken this step. Why should I have to pay for one?<P>6) Basically the entire thing is a divorce agreement without using the word divorce. It is obviously preparatory to divorce. And I don't want one, so I am not going to sign this.<P>That's the general gist of things. You'd be really bored if I typed in the whole thing...<BR> <P>terri<p>[This message has been edited by terri (edited November 08, 2000).]