Poll questions for everyone. <P>Do you consider an extra-marital affair as emotional abuse? If so, would you consider a WS continued "professional" contact with OP emotional abuse?<BR>

Hmmm, interestng queston. Why are you asking?

Hi, H I!<P>If so, then I'm the poster child for continued emotional abuse!<P> <P><BR>Seriously, is the A still on-going? <P> You have to share a little if you want people to get involved. People generally like to help but they need to know where you're coming from, too. <P>I never opened this post because when I read the title of the thread, I just said "Duh!" Sorry I was being judgmental. Seeing it back on top made me curious enough to open it. But when you mention the workplace--now that is something I know a thing or two about!<P>

Yes. <P>It is emotional abuse(EA) before you find out and your S is not valuing you and not showing affection or empathy. <P>It is EA right after you find out.<P>it is EA when he goes into the fog and won't come out!<P>It is EA when you ask to talk and makes that exasperated face.<P>The silent walk-bys in the hall day after day.<P>No kisses, no I love you's--just like a roommate, but it hurts a lot to be snubbed by this roomy!<P>When WS is ready to enter into recovery, but refuses to eject the big trigger? Or even leave himself, transfer to another dept, or get her fired, or something?<P>Yep EA--pure and not so simple... <P>But really painful, and a knock to the esteem daily. It is really hard to stay on top. Not to get pulled under by the current!

Yes. An affair is one of the most painful things I have ever experianced. And continued contact of any sort is just cruel IMHO.<P>------------------<BR>Deb<P>Hepatitis C, Please educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hepatitis-central.com/<P>In</A> memory of a very dear friend <A HREF="http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp" TARGET=_blank>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp</A>

I agree, emotional abuse beyond description. The pain so deep in the psyche that one doesn't even know where to begin to stop the hurt.<P>EA when you look backwards and realize all the times that you couldn't figure out why your spouse was over-reacting.<P>EA when you realize all the dinners you cooked which were left uneaten because he had just eaten dinner with the OW.<P>EA when you find out he bought the same gift for her that he bought for you.<P>EA when you have to deal with children who have to see their Father fall from grace.<P>To continue contact in any form with the OP is a continuation of the pummeling an affair delivers.

How are you surviving this emotional abuse, Hi?<P>

You bet your sweet bippy it's emotional abuse - and the worst kind I can think of at that. It's not only the concept of your spouse betraying you, but the actions of your spouse as she continues on with her wanderings. <P>As any kind of abuse is the act of a coward, so is an affair. Hell, I think I'd much rather get cuffed across the face, then called every name in the book than have the things happen to me that I did to my H during the affairs. I can think of no greater pain.<P>Yes, I can say this because I am (was) a WS. <P>Khyra

I mostly posted this topic because it seemed to me that majority of the world does not see extra-marital affairs as emotional abuse. They tend to glamorize this type of behavior. It has also been my experience that the majority of the world would be very quick to judge BS as an abusive person if they were to witness an angry outburst or some level of indifference towards their WS. When those same folks witness a WS in an affair they certainly don’t act like they are witnessing an extremely abusive act. They seem to want to ignore it, protect it or just use it as info for water cooler humor. Far from the light they would shed on that same person if they were guilty of taking part in a more visible abusive behavior. In my case, I would much rather be beaten daily, at least you would know when it’s over and were you stood. <P>Leilana - She clams the affair is over, but she doesn't believe an EA is an affair. She talks to the OM fairly regularly on the phone and sees him about once a month when they travel to HQ or trade shows. I've asked her to share her feelings about the situation when she travels or talks to him, but it is almost never volunteered. Normally she sees this type of discussion as an inquisition. I am handling it well. I have good friends and family for support when needed, but after a year and half I've really started to grow cynical. I still don’t know what the real truth is. In some instances she has even told the same lie so many times she even believes it herself. The few times that she has caught herself she will say "I guess I never considered that a lie" I have very little energy left to put forth towards any Plan x and spend the majority of my time thinking what it would be like to be single again and be in a position to easily change whatever circumstances were causing me loneliness or grief. Unfortunately my moral commitment to myself precludes those type of quick fixes and as you all know one nice gesture from WS can re-energize your efforts, so I hang in there thinking good Karma will eventually catch up with me some how. <P><BR>Hope I didn’t bum anybody out, but that’s how I feel right now as she just left 10 minutes ago on her way to the airport for yet another trip to HQ or maybe OP (who really knows).<BR>

H I,<P>To listen to you it sounds like you're extremely depressed and on your last legs. I'm so sorry. Your situation does sound pretty terrible. And I'm so awfully sorry I posted so lighheartedly--I tend to deal with my own pain that way--coping mechanism. <P>Are you in any type of counseling? You ARE being abused! Get yourself into some even if it's just for you alone--for strength, direction, focus and basic survival. It may take you a little farther than just "hanging on" and waiting for your "good karma" to kick in. (Tho I'm sure you have a truckload coming your way some day!)<P>Joint marriage counseling definately sounds like it's in order if you could get her to go. But to hear you speak, it sounds like that is a far off dream.<P>I totally agree with what you and everyone here said. I've just never heard it said so vehemently before. I'm seriously thinking of dowloading this informative thread and showing it to my H.<P>In one session I had with Steve Harley he said it's not so much stubborness or our sense of loyalty or our wedding vows that keeps us with a spouse when taking all this affair abuse. It's "speculation". We create/perpetuate feelings for a person based on a <I>belief in their potential</I>. A potential that we see in the WS to turn around and be the spouse that we need and desire.<P>But even so, you sound as if your love unit bank is in the red--and speculation will only carry you so far. <P>You ARE being abused. And I do not condone, ignore or protect what is happening to you. It IS cruel. It is a form of "pummeling". It sucks bigtime. While Khyra calls people that hurt others and have A's cowards, I have always thought of a WS's A the most singular selfish act a person can commit. <P>I wish I could send your W this thread!<P>Have you ever gone with her on her trips, H I? Not that it would make anything better--just wondering what would happen if you did.<P>P.S. I told my H that continuing to work with OP after d-day felt to me as if I had been raped and he then goes out and buys my rapist a beer or takes him out for a round of golf. My apologies to anyone who has ever been raped--just the feeling of trauma I was trying to convey to him.<P>The continued co-working feels like they are making a mockery of our pain. <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited November 01, 2000).]

Yes, yes, yes. It's emotional abuse and one that can't be described. It's depth has to be experienced first hand to know the damage. It's scars are hidden and reach far beyond the spouse into the children, extended families, friends and even into the next generation. It colors one's life so that it's never the same again. That bond is forever broken. It rides on my shoulders and mars my soul. It whispers in my ear at the worst of times and that rush of memories churns in the pit of my stomach. It has altered by thought patterns. All of this and yet it has made me a better person. Crazy I know. I am more compassionate, more sensitive, more focused on what is truly important...my relationship with the Lord. I know that in Romans 8:28 God tells us the He causes all things to work toward good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Emotional abuse..you betcha...<BR>

I think an affair is the worst EA there is, especailly when it keeps goin on & on after you find out about the A. Before the OW my WS would have thought someone like him should be tarred & feathered but now it is alright, especailly as he has tried to break things off but it is just harder than he thought.<P>we are now living in another country & that has not even stopped their A, he met the OW in London (my favoirte city). <p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited December 10, 2000).]

I’ve suggested going on trips with her, but it’s mostly ignored. In the past we used to travel together on business and all 4 parties of the affair were present at the time the first real definitive signs of the affair were seen. I would assume my presence would just push her over the edge. The other person is deathly afraid of me and has pumped that kinda attitude her way. It’s truly sad to fear someone who has never harmed anyone, even during the affair. Says something about the power of guilt. The way I look at it and have even explained it to WS, “Why be vengeful, serves no purpose. The joy that I could get out of pounding the OP would only last a few moments and the consequences are not worth it. (like a WS would understand this concept) I am also a firm believer in Karma. The OP doesn’t need me to punish him, the way he lives his life (multiple extra-marital affairs) is a hell of his own making.”<P>On the subject of counseling. Been to three over the past year. Fist one was when WS told me I was crazy, unnecessarily jealous of her friend (you know the rest of those nice things they say). I believed her, Never been jealous in my life and kinda felt crazy. Never ever been to see a mental health professional in my life, but if my best friend (wife) told me I was whacked, I thought I should go. That counselor lasted six sessions before he told me that there was nothing particularly wrong with me and any further counseling would be a waste unless WS was present. At this point I wasn’t absolutely sure she was having an affair and the counselor listened to me and told me she more than likely was and her behavior warranted a jealous reaction. Of course she wasn’t interested in joining me, so end of counselor #1.<P>3.5 months later I finally confronted WS with enough hard core evidence and pretty much would not take any more lies in regards to denying the affair (D-Day). She was familiar with Harleys teachings and agreed to do phone counseling with Steve. She hated him, never filled out any of the background stuff, and didn’t participate. After a few sessions Steve said, “I think I only have one more chance to talk to her before she’s gone”. He was one session off; she never spoke to him again. So done with number 2.<P>About 4 months after that, I told her no matter how this situation is going end I think going to a counselor would help bring us to that end quicker and lesson the pain. She agreed. I used the Harley method of selecting a counselor and made sure that the counselor was female. This one lasted four sessions. Counselor told us the truth didn’t matter. Started giving me things to change to make WS happy. When asked counselor if WS was going to be asked to do or change anything, counselor jumped up out of chair and gave me a lecture doing the George Bush ax hand gesture. Her lecture consisted of telling me “WS held 3 of the 4 aces and I just better get used to it” Then closed with “If I talk to her about her accountability then there will just be 2 people in the room WS will not hear” The entire time this was going on WS was smiling and laughing. We went back for one more and I asked about her lecture and why. She gave me an answer along the lines of “I don’t pick sides and you shouldn’t think that I do” I asked her what her format of counseling theses situations was and she didn’t have an answer. I called that one quits. The counselor just seemed to perpetuate WS fantasy and further empower her to be more abusive. The only thing the WS could remember about any of those sessions was “I hold 3 of the 4 aces”. I walked around with the Ace of Heart in my pocket for 2 weeks thinking any moment I would just give her the last one and tell her “you can have this last card, They only have power and meaning if I desire to give them that power”<P>Am I depressed, Yes but nothing dangerous. Just tired of trying and receiving very little in return. My Taker is becoming an important part of my life. I can feel the self-centeredness of my attitude, but I understand that this is just a defense mechanism.<P>So I’ll close this thread with a thank you to all and some bathroom wall humor.<P>“No matter how good she looks, There’s somebody tired of putting up with her SH_T” and<BR>“Never trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn’t die” Just kidding LOL.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited November 02, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Hi Infidelity (edited November 02, 2000).]

Yes, without a doubt, IT IS Emotional Abuse.<P>When your WS ignores your illnesses and health needs, yet takes time to only blame you for his mistakes and makes time only to go have fun with OP while you struggle by yourself to try and survive ... IT IS emotionally abusive and wickedly criminal.<P>Jo<P>

It is definitely emotional abuse on the betrayed. I know this first hand.<P>I don't want to be overly argumentative or in anyway appear to be a WS sympathizer, but if your WS is trying to save the marriage and has given up the affair and tried to do what is right, then our continued anger is emotional abuse to them.<P>I am emotionally abusing my husband at times by my continued bitterness and even my continued outward showing of pain. I want it to generate guilt, I feel I deserve for him to feel guilt, but anytime you act in any way that has the motive of suffering in someone else, whether or not you feel they deserve it (correctional and parental notwithstanding) then it is abuse.

Not to be overly argumentative, Lulu, but what if it isn't continued anger but continued hurt and feelings of resentment? I would not consider that emotional abuse of a WS then. <P>The problem I had is that until I LB'd and pointed out my hurt, my H thought everything was hunky dory. He thought I was "over it". He has been an extremely happy man. Meanwhile I have slowly spriraled down, having my love bank units depleted by the continued hurt, until I'm in total depression and in a state of withdrawal of my spouse. <P>And my personal goal on this issue is not to generate guilt in my spouse but understanding of what I feel. Without it, how can he stop hurting me or protect me from future hurt?<P>And in knowing this yet failing to provide that protection--my only option is to protect myself--either thru anger and conflict <B>or</B> withdrawal and removing myself from the equation (leaving). <P>And right now my H is very aware and has some things to think about. Meanwhile I'm teetering on the edge between my options.

I am not talking about genuine feelings. We deserve them and we own them. I am talking about continued manipulation and unkind guilt trips. I have found myself making comments that are hateful and spiteful. That is different than expressing my feelings.<P>My H doesn't respond to expression of feelings. He can't accept any feelings, attitudes or opinions that are different than his own. This hurts me also and so I attack his ego because it is his false front, his vulnerable area. This is what I need to control. <P>I have just decided to not say anything anymore.

But Lulu, won't you just end up like the way I described in my 2nd paragraph above?<P>I think we have to search for a happy medium here. Opening a can of whoopass on them vs. keeping everything inside--these extremes are not healthy for you mentally, emotionally, or in your relationship. <P>Don't you think?

LuLu,<P>Anger is a fact of life. It's an emotion that wells up inside you and cannot be helped. No one is 'wrong' for feeling angry about anything, no matter how long that anger is there. Period, end of sentence.<P>HOWEVER - how one choses to express that anger is what turns out to be either abusive or healthy. When my H feels the bile of his resentment and anger (which to me are quite understandable emotions) he calmly tells me, "I have been feeling angry about things you have done in the past today."<P>Sure, I experience a quick pang of fear, followed of course by that self-serving hop onto the defensive. But that's only for a second, during which I keep my big mouth shut. Then I reply, I tell him I am deeply sorry for the sh*tty heartless things I have done. And I ask him what was the trigger for his renewed anger.<P>That's just how we get thru it in our house. Nothing abusive about it, nothing wrong with it. Our marriage is stronger for doing it this way.<P>Now on the other hand, if the BS, following an initial period of 'anything goes becasue I'm crazy hurt" anger, continues to lash out for years, bringing the Affair up to get her way in an argument, or to just plain hurt the WS because it makes them feel better to do so, then that IS emotional abuse. I worried that J would do this, but I should have known better. I married a man who is above doing that.<P>Lei, allow me to rescind my earlier statement. We {WS} were selfish cowards. I agree totally with you that it is the most selfish thing we could have done.<P>Jeeze, in retrospect, I wish that I had instead, taken the rent money for a month or two and went to the spa somewhere instead! Or a shopping spree! Or bought ten different marital aides! But NOOO I had to do the worst thing possible. <P>Sorry for the ramble, but I was just thinking of better ways I could have been selfish! I would have had more fun, and J would have just been really pissed instead of devestatingly hurt. <P>Khyra