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#892192 11/02/00 07:23 AM
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Ok...Jim...<P>I hear where you are coming from. I know there are many people who take a strong stand against any kind of 'birth control'. <P>So can I assume that you are against ALL types of birth control? Including the rythym (can't even spell that one [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ) method?<P>If you are going to use the argument that sex between married couples was strictly for the sole purpose of procreation, then I'll give you that. No attempt to interfere with nature should be tolerated. But don't stop there...if God intended for hair to grow on your face, then to shave it would be interfereing with God's design. Or even cutting your hair for that matter.<P>And I'm sure you would not tolerate any type of medicine for your kids when they get sick or take cold...seing how God/or nature must have intended for them to have the sickness. And I don't read in the bible where it says 'if there is any sick among you, reach for some asprin or advil"....it reads: "call for the elders of the church and have prayer".<P>I mean, Jim...come on...where do you draw that line?<P>I can certainly respect your own PERSONAL conviction...that for you and your wife, birth control is out of the question. I know a number of people who take that stand. But you can't support that with scripture.<P>But I am still waiting for your clarification on assuming that I put a vasectomy and an abortion in the same category. You owe me that one!<P>Keep smiling...nothing like 'healthy discussion' to make the day go by faster! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

#892193 11/02/00 08:02 AM
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lighthouse,<P>*just as a side note* <P>Thank you for expressing the terror in the 'stirups' you mentioned in your first post.<P>As a woman, it is nice to know that a man can see the trauma involved there, as we deal with it quite often. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>sorry, back to the discussion...<P>-dawnn<BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<p>[This message has been edited by Dawnn (edited November 02, 2000).]

#892194 11/02/00 08:42 AM
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While I don't quite agree with NSR's equating a vasectomy and an abortion, I do think I see where he's coming from, and I do agree that a vasectomy is more than just a "simple procedure."<P>I think he's saying that in order to respect "life", and to respect the place of sex in the creation of life, you must always make a choice in favor of life, or at least the possibility of life, when that choice is presented to you. So that means you must choose not to have an abortion, don't approve of euthanasia, AND that you shouldn't get a vasectomy, which would completely divorce sex from its possibility to create life.<P>I'd have to assume that if one followed this position strictly, you'd be against any method that would tend to divorce sex from its creative possibilities -- including condoms (which I'm surprised more guys here havn't mentioned -- why are you all so eager to go in and get things snipped when a handy piece of latex'll do the job?), rhythm method, etc. Essentially, your ATTITUDE has to be one of openness to the possibility of life.<P>I'm not sure, NSR, how you think that this doesn't mean you'd turn your wife into a baby factory, or how you square your statement that you don't want to keep your wife "barefoot and pregnant" her whole life with your refusal to accept control over your reproductive processes. Simple biology, I would think; the function of sex is to produce children, and if you have it often enough with zero precautions or forethought, you're going to keep having children until your wife reaches menopause.<P>Obviously, NSR's position derives from his faith, and his comments about vasectomies stir both from his general pro-life views and from his own belief that his wife's A stems from their decision to undergo the procedure. And maybe it does, I don't really know.<P>But just because his statements stemmed from his personal religious beliefs and/or experiences doesn't mean they can be discounted. I'm not a religious man at all, neither my W nor I really want kids, and we use the foam/condom method (as effective as the pill, guys, you should give it a go). But I'd hesitate before describing a vasectomy as a "simple procedure" that you should get as easily as you would remove a mole. Producing children with your makeup, whether you're religious or not, is something very special that only you can do. It IS a gift, in some sense, and you should approach the decision to permanently cast the gift aside with caution, deliberation, and respect.<P>As for your general question, Thronx, I'd wait on the vasectomy thing. You're two months past d-day. If you've learned anything reading these boards, you know that life has a way of progressing, as you put it, "interestingly" and in not always forseen ways after an A. One of you clearly wasn't fully committed to the marriage a short time ago, and that kind of thing doesn't heal overnight. You don't want to wake up having altered yourself on the basis of certain assumptions that turn out not to be true.<P>Condom-free sex, though, is a powerful lure . . . lol. God, I miss it sometimes.<P>Take care.

#892195 11/02/00 08:52 AM
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{lighthouse},<P>Nope... you can't assume I'm against <B>ALL</B> "forms" of <I>family planning</I>!<P>Check out <A HREF="http://www.cin.org/nfp.html" TARGET=_blank>Natural Family Planning</A>... and the related links...<BR>...and yes my W is Catholic too...<BR>...or so she claims(claimed).<P>and yes... ...it reads: "call for the elders of the church and have prayer".<P>The above and following mentioned site are just <I>where it's at</I>! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>If you're into the real essence of my arguments... check out... <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html" TARGET=_blank>HUMANAE VITAE</A><P>--------------------------------------------<P><B>No</B> sex was NOT "...strictly for the sole purpose of procreation..."<BR>I hoped my statements didn't lead you to believe that...<P>...<B>one</B> of the purposes of <I>marriage</I> is for procreation... but the marital act itself is to be a wholely selfless gift to your spouse...<BR>...open to procreation... yes...<BR>...but <B>very</B> importantly... a gift!<P>Your arguments of hair/medicine aren't in the same realm as are issues of artificial contraception or abortion...<BR>...no need to comment.<P>Scripture is just one source...<BR>If you know me... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura, although I don't exclude it, by any means! See my post... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000288.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Concepts in Christian Scripture</A>.<P>Do check out <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html" TARGET=_blank>HUMANAE VITAE</A> for the link between a vasectomy and an abortion...<BR>...I wish my W and I had read it earlier.<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim

#892196 11/02/00 11:40 AM
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Thronx,<P>I had the procedure done after my second child. No complications, just a little tender for 3 or 4 days. The urologist I used was a pioneer in developing a reversible vasectomy procedure. According to his literature this type of vasectomy can be reversed up to 10 years later with a high probability of success. If you do decide to go forward with the procedure you might look into this possibility.<P>Humorous stories…. Absolutely. My Urologist name is Dr. Alden Cockburn. With a name like that you've gotta be good. He is from somewhere in the Caribbean and speaks with a Bahamian accent. This guy has been on Letterman, Carson, and Leno to name a few and really has a ball (so to speak) with his strange fame. Every year for Fathers Day he hooks up with a local radio station to give away a free vasectomy to whoever can convince him that they need it the most. Normally the winners claim to be the fathers of 8 or more illegitimate children. <P>He even made the procedure entertaining. Once the IV was in and the Valium was flowing, he put me in the stirrups and started telling really stupid jokes. After a while when I didn’t respond to his jokes he positioned a mirror so I could see what was going on and asked me "what do you see in this hand?". I replied "a scalpel" Then he said do you see what I'm holding in this hand (me). I said "yep" He then asked, "Am I the funniest urologist that I'd ever met?". Once again "yep" He then blurted out "Then laugh at my jokes, makes me nervous when folks don't and my hands start shaking" Whole thing made the experience as pleasant as it could be. Think I'm kidding, here's a link to the local news where they quoted him <A HREF="http://www.wfla.com/indepth/11.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.wfla.com/indepth/11.htm</A> under section "Pill #1: Saw Palmetto" <P>Hey Lighthouse & NSR. Normally I look forward to reading the wisdom and the understanding in your posts but the jousting your doing for purely personal views is real out of character. Is it OK to agree to disagree and give the thread back to Thronx? <BR>

#892197 11/02/00 02:21 PM
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When I had mine done, there was an attractive nurse(female) and a young female intern along for the ride. I have to admit that was the first time I was ever half naked and with not one but two woman and wasn't aroused. Of course the guy standing there with a blade probably had a lot to do with that!

#892198 11/02/00 02:59 PM
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I had it done years ago after my son was born and I really didn't want any more kids. <BR>It doesn't take that long and I have had no problems to speak of.<P>Good luck [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

#892199 11/02/00 09:06 PM
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Jim, I hear you. And, I just want to let you know, there are other women out there who believe in the same things you do. I'm not Catholic, and I don't really have a problem with birth control. I honestly can't say that a lot of people who are parents should be parents. Let's take my H for example. He doesn't want children. Yes, I think this is very selfish and I think it is related a lot to materialism. Do I think he would be a great father. Absolutely--provided he obtained some sort of desire to have children. But, if I were to get pregnant now, he would hate me and hate any children we might have. I wouldn't burden a child with that for anything.<P>That all being said. I, too, waited for marriage. It was very special knowing that my H and I did sexual things with each other and only each other. It was truly a gift from my H. I loved not having to worry about STDs. I do believe part of marriage is having children and raising a family. So, you see, there are women out there who believe that. I'm sorry your wife doesn't, but have faith, that your W doesn't represent everyone. I am sure that there are women out there whose H's had vasectomies, that did not move right into feeling that their H's were objects to be used. In fact, I would think that having a vasectomy or tubiligation would be more of a permit for that person to become a BS because they would reduce their chance of getting pregnant. I'm not sure I see how your vasectomy prompted your W's A.

#892200 11/02/00 11:03 PM
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I had a scalpeless vasectomy almost 10 years ago. My wife had back problems and a back surgery and wasn't supossed to have any more kids. It seemed to be the best option. we had 2 kids d & s and felt It safest way.<BR>I was sore for a day after surgery and could have gone back to work. Have been happy with results only 2 tiny "holes" made, very hard to find(wife and I did look for them years later) I would say the most uncomfortable part is the hair growing back.<BR>I don't feel I lost my manhood I did something to protect my wife from the effects another pregnancy would have on her back.

#892201 11/02/00 11:26 PM
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Folks, and NSR: I certainly have no problem with the beliefs of others when it comes to procreation. But that wasn't the issue that either lighthouse or I were commenting on. It was NSR's drawing of a direct connection between his consenting to have a vasectomy with the failure of his marriage. I'm sorry, but I think that is reaching a little bit. If it has anything to do with it, it isn't the vasectomy per se that did it, but the insensitivity of his wife and, perhaps, the resentment that going along with her wishes created in him. Those are relationship dynamics, and would have occurred somewhere along the way regardless of whether or not a vasectomy had entered the picture.<P>People here and elsewhere have regularly beaten me about the head and shoulders with the idea that, while I personally may have contributed to the sad condition of my marriage, ONLY my husband made his selfish choice to have an affair. Same with your wife, NSR - a vasectomy only saw to it that you didn't have any more small children who would need to be destroyed by the insensitivity and selfishness of her decision. Perhaps this was God's way of protecting you and NOT allowing this hurt to be shared by any more defenseless children!<P>That said, I feel I must commend Thronx and the rest of the men who have come forward to talk about vasectomy: It is far less invasive a procedure for a man than for a woman to have her tubes tied, and is less often found to reverse itself (My cousin had a surprise pregnancy after her tubes were tied), but so often in a relationship it seems that it is the woman who must take responsibility for birth control. It also is not a topic that seems easy to discuss, either, so I am very happy to see it being discussed.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

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