I now need to vent a bit. My wife now says she should probably start staying at her place overnight in a few days. But, doesn't want the kids to know anything till after Xmas, so they don't remember it as a bad Xmas. So, her plan is to go over to her place after they are in bed at night, and come to our place at 6 in the morning. I know that isn't realistic, but that is what she says. This is going to get hard. They will wake up at night and wonder where mommy is. We talked a bit on the phone. She asked what do I want. I of course said I don't ever want her to leave, and she said that isn't realistic, "but in 6 months who knows". What is going on inside her head? I guess I just let it unfold and her start staying there. Maybe a month of that will sink some reality in, not being home at night with her kids (actually that wouldn't be new), but the sleeping somewhere else would. I just can't believe how cruel this is going to be on the kids. Walk away with no counselling, pretending that there is no OM, and it is just because "we're different", "it is too late", etc. Reality is she fell in love with someone.<P>She said if I don't like the temporary arrangement till after Xmas, we can tell the kids now. My thinking is that I rather them with me for now, let her stay at her place, and maybe through some miracle she'll have a change of heart before we have to tell them officially. Does that make sense to you? To me it buys time before uprooting the children.<P>I'd really like some comments on this one.<P>All kinds of things go through my mind, including starting to tell her about affairs and the feelings, effects of this on kids, why I think we should not be splitting, but I don't think there is any point. I just wonder if she thinks that even if OM is over (not sure of status), the fact that she had an OM means it is too late for us. Know what I mean?<P>I had to be careful not to LB, because she wanted to know right away what I want to do. I said this is not easy and we should talk later, I'm at work. She said "why do you seem like this is such a surprise...you've known for a long time" (very snippy voice).<P>Any advice or comments appreciated.

Rick,<P>Are you asking if she thinks just because she HAD OM that in her mind it's over? I often wondered this with my W. Like she thinks she's unworthy because of A?<P>Jay

Rick - how old are you kids? My wife had similar plans before she moved out to spend most of her time at home and just sleep at her apartment. Well, of course that never happened. Your wife is dellusional if she thinks she can pull off this scheme to sneak out and back in while the kids sleep. My recommendation is that you let her go find out for herself, but prepare the kids first for the separation about a week in advance and tell them that Mom does not love Dad anymore, so she's going to live somewhere else. Most important - this is no fault of theirs and both Mom and Dad still love them.<P>Like my wife, her mind is a jumble and she has grandiose plans right now. The similarities are scarry. Maybe we should meet someplace and strategize.<P>WAT

Rick, <P>I agree that the kids need to be told something, there is no way this little scheme will work. Kids wake up in the night, they get up earlier than expected, etc. <P>However, because your children are so young, I don't think I would explain it in terms of Mommy not loving Daddy anymore. I would be afraid that they would think, well if Mommy can stop loving Daddy, what if she stops loving us?<P>I think you both need to be as open as can be with them for their ages. I would also suggest that they get to see her new home so that they know where Mommy is.

Hi Rick,<P>I think your W has it much too easy. She is calling the shots. You need to take a stand.<P>IMHO, If she wants to go early, do not make it easy for her to straddle the line between home and freedom...it will keep you in netherland while she has the best of both worlds. Call her hand...if she is going to move, she is out of the house. The children will know anyway. By trying to slip away for the night and come back at 6, she will not be fooling them. This arrangement will cost you and your kids.<P>Give her something to think about while she is alone in her new house.<P>Have you done any counceling?<P>I am so sorry you have to deal with this right now.<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by Dynamo (edited November 02, 2000).]

Thanks for helping. Here are some answers. And one other evil thought. The business of her staying there for awhile, leaving me with the kids, I agree isn't a long term thing, but if that happens for awhile, it does look better for me if there were to ever be a custody dispute. I have that in the back of my mind too, just in case. I don't plan on there being one though.<P>catamount82 - Yeah, that is one thing I'm wondering. Or in other words, because she was emotionally able to get attached to someone else, she may think that it implies that there isn't enough left for me, and can never be. My wife will not read a book that describes these marriage problems, and has a this or that attitude, no in betweens. She thinks once you don't feel the same anymore, it must be over. Not in tune with the whole concept of counselling and working on a marriage. It is natural love or else it isn't right.<P>worthatry - did any counsellor ever tell you that is is good or OK to phrase it as though "mommy doesnt' love daddy"? The only advice I ever got was just to not imply sides, and just say that mommy and daddy can't be together now. I'm not sure how to approach it. The similarities are scary, I agree.<P>PamO - I understand what you say about the scheme not working. I know I'd have to explain some days that she isn't in the bed. I am hoping that a month or two of some reality might change her, and thus not telling the kids might be better. Yes, they'll see something sometimes, but which is better?<P>Dynamo - No counselling. She has always refused. I thought at first this had nothing to do with another man, but later found out that really that was the whole issue (on top of marital problems)....the same old story. Now I realize why she refused. Had something to lose. We always used to say that we would work on anything to be together for the kids...until OM came into the picture. I might have to take this stand....just hesitating to avoid telling the kids, because I am simply not convinced that in the long run, she'll go this route. I'm preparing for it though.

Rick,<P>If she does move out, I would recommend that you document everything and as much as has happened already with regards to her nights out. She is very likely expecting to get the children in a divorce. If it becomes clear later that this may not be the case, then she may feel compelled to at least try and work on the marriage.<P>I would definitely tell the children as soon as possible. Do it in a kind, gentle way and make sure they do know that you and W love them. It may be somewhat frieghtening for them initially, but I doubt it. Your W has been out late at night many nights now, and I'll bet you are the one the come to when they wake up.<P>Just remember that children aren't dumb. THey just don't have much experience. So my bet they know mom and dad are having problems. They just don't understand why, of course neither do you. <P>So be honest with the children, and tell them Mom is living elsewhere, but will see them.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

You will have to come up with quite a bit of strength in the weeks to come! There will be times when you feel there's nothing left. That's when you keep digging in and finding more strength than you ever thought you had. This is a messed up situation. I feel awful for your children. They don't deserve this. However, you will have to break it to them somehow, even if it is not a permanent situation, which we all hope it won't be. The way you tell them is important. I'm no expert there, because I have no children of my own (unfortunately). Is there a good counselor in your area who might be able to help you with this? Your wife probably needs to move out sooner rather than later. I know it's not what you want, but it may be the best thing for her in the long run. For her, being away for the upcoming holidays will be quite distressful! Try NOT to be clingy! It has somewhat of an adverse effect when they perceive the BS as hanging on frantically. This will be hard. If you can muster up the courage and strength to keep a straight face during all this, it will be better for you! (You can cry all you want when she can't see you do it).<BR>AR<BR>

Rick - No, a counselor did not recommend that specific wording to us, but that's basically what we told our son who is 12. This was the only explanation we could agree upon because I was not going to say I didn't love my wife any longer. If it had been up to me, I would have told him the truth of the affair, but she would have denied it as she does to this day.<P>I guess if you want to white lie you can sanitize it down to "Mommy and Daddy aren't happy with each other right now, so we're going to live apart for awhile to see if we can find a way to be happy again."<P>Still don't know their ages, but unless they're real young, they'll figure things out on their own sooner or later.<P>I agree with Dynamo - the sooner she's out, the better. You play the role, you pay the toll. She won't be happy for long.<P>On the custody issue, I agree with you. She committed adultery and abandoned her family. You'll have the upper hand if it gets to this.<P>WAT

Rick<P>As you know from my previous posts, I also have young children (6 and 3)<P>My W left 8 weeks ago and up until this week, I had been passing it off to the kids as Mummy changing her job and working through the night.<P>However, without consultation, my W decided to tell the kids this week that she didn't live at home anymore and had a new house.<P>I suppose my point is that it may be worth coming up with an interim excuse for her absence for the kids benefit, but you just can't legislate for the behaviour and thoughtless actions of a WS (I know that you know this!)<P>To be honest, although the kids seemed to accept my original excuse, my eldest seemed to sense that something was wrong and his behaviour has changed slightly in recent weeks. I don't want to alarm you, my son hasn't exactly become a problem child but there are little differences in his behaviour that indicate that he is a little insecure right now. <P>It is a hard one to call, if you feel that your W won't last long on her own then an excuse such as new job etc. may be a good idea. But the longer it goes on, kids just have the ability to "sense" that something isn't right and your W may decide to give them a conflicting story.<P>My thoughts are with you Rick, you're doing a brilliant job in crappy circumstances.<P><BR>HarryHat

worthatry - sorry, forgot to tell you their ages. 4.5 and 2.5, so my oldest will be affected the most. He'll be 5 in Jan.<P>Part of the problem is that it will be awhile before wife can have a nicely furnished place. That is one good thing...she doesn't want to alter the niceness of our current place that I'll be keeping. So she is getting new stuff for her place (some used). But that gives her more time to have the best of both worlds, sort of. Theoretically, when we tell them, the kids should start being under joint custody, which is the plan if this never gets better. However, I rather them be with me. They'll get better care right now, because I'm happy to be home every night. Wife isn't. Anyway, they will be with me for some period of time till she gets a proper furnished place. I'm hoping the fantasy starts to crack before it gets there.<P>Thanks again everyone. You'll probably hear more from me in the coming days given the latest developments.

Rick,<P>If there is ever a nuclear war, I want to be in the same fallout shelter with you.<P>Jay

Rick<P>Sorry to hear the dissapointing news.<P>"All kinds of things go through my mind, including starting to tell her about affairs and the feelings, effects of this on kids, why I think we should not be splitting, but I don't think there is any point." <P>I don't believe you can do much to stop her from going and any attempt will put a great strain between the both of you. You have to be strong and also not get involved in "trying to sort her out" as this will be seen as a BIG LB. I am sure you realise this reading between the lines of your post.<P>"I just wonder if she thinks that even if OM is over (not sure of status), the fact that she had an OM means it is too late for us. Know what I mean?"<P>Maybe these are her thoughts but either way you are the one who needs to be strong and guide her round in this area. Only by seeing genuine and consistent effort on your part will she be convinced that her happiness lies with you. I read in one of the posts that the effects of Plan A as a rule take 1 month of every year of a relationship to have the full effect, daunting though for me (been together 15yrs). <P>Your children are very young and probably don't need to know a great deal of detail at this stage because as you say things may change very quickly. <P>My thoughts are with you at this tough point in time.<P>Regards<BR>Inlimbo

Rick, <BR>I am so sorry to hear of this. As a mom, I can not even imagine not being with your children all of the time. Given enough time her new world will pale in comparison with her safe old one. You never know what you miss until it is gone. I am in my second marriage and even though I know that my first was not good, if I would have found this board before it ended I sure would have worked harder to prevent it. I miss it even still. The newness and excitement wear off. If you can be patient and just love her in spite of her mistakes I would think you would have a good chance. As a mom, I would have to think she is in a deep fog. Hopefully she will come out of it. My heart is with you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Janie

Hi Rick:<P>Over and over again I am struck by how different WS act when they are in the middle of all this...everything is thrown aside for that one precious relationship. How can it possibly be worth it to them?<P>For months your wife has been neglecting you, your children and her home for this OM and her friends...all because you and her are "not the same" or are "different."<P>I'm sorry, Rick, but when my kids were young my place was with them. I can't imagine any relationship that would make me want to separate from them. If I had left my marriage, my children would have left with me....even if I had to scratch and claw to make it so. <P>You really are a saint to put up with this. Obviously, your wife just wants to go ahead and have a place to have this relationship, regardless of the effect on your children.<BR>More of her selfishness. When and if she ever comes out of the "fog" her guilt will be so great. <P>Thank God that your children have you...a rock that they can cling too. My SIL, after she divorced her H, went through a period where she did alot of partying and "experiencing life" while her mother and sister cared for her children. Years later her kids still remember that time of what appeared to them as abandonment (and they are grown now) and it continues to be a sore spot between her and them. <P>Sometimes we can never take back or make up for what we do. I pray your wife will realize this before she ruins her relationship with her children and throws away a very good man.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye

Rick,<P>The followig are the comments of a BS that has had one too many glasses of wine tonight...That's my disclaimer!<P>First of all, kudos for puttting up with the crap you have tolerated, yeah I've tolerated similar, but we have no childern, continue to stand by them and in the end <BR>(whatever it is) you will all be fine!<P><BR>Your W's behavior is not at all uncommon, it just feels that way to you. As JL suggessted keep EVERYTHING in a journal, and as for yourself, PLEASE call Steve H and get some professional advise on HOW to handle the entire situation.<P>No matter the outcome, I firmly believe that following the "Harley approach" gives YOU the best chance to recover OR move on.<P>No way I would have made it this far without Steve's help...please do yourself a favor and get some professional input on what to do next.<P>Good luck, my thoughts are with you, and you childern.<P>Jack<P>