Now that my wife has moved to her own place (first night there tonight), I'm wondering about some things. I'd appreciate any insight you might have.<P>1. Do you go to your spouses place at all? Mine seems to want to invite me there in the near future.<P>2. Do you initiate contact at their new place, or just be nice when you talk to them. I'm planning on keeping Plan A going, because we'll see each other alot, and I think it is the best thing for now. However, I just don't feel like calling that new number....it bugs me (she put it in her maiden name...wanted the same scenario as her mom, where people can't find you easily...so she says)<P>3. Do you think it is possible for someone so against books (like HN/HN, SAA) to eventually open up to that idea, assuming they express an interest in coming back?<P>4. If relationship is possibly over with OM, yet she is still moving, how bad of a sign is that? Given that about 6 weeks ago, she said she loved him, never felt that way before, etc., if they we're attempting only friendship now, is it likely that she's still foggy from it all, even though she may know there isn't future with OM?<P>5. I have a hard time being at all cheery when she mentions the new place. I suppose I should get over that? I suppose I should make like everything is great here and make it a fun place.<P>*Adding one extra question*<P>6. How do you handle your family members? My parents don't know that she was planning on moving, nor does sibling. I am afraid they'll resent her forever if I tell them. They live far enough away that they won't necessarily have to know for awhile, but I'm feeling like maybe I should tell them soon.<P>Just some crazy things I think about. Thanks!<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited November 05, 2000).]

Rick<BR>I have been where you are now and I know it's not easy. Here are my comments re your questions.<P>1/. If you still intend to continue with Plan A I believe you should go when asked. It will be difficult to be enthusiastic as she will most likely be very elated at her new found independence. The elation is usually short lived when the all the negatives of single life start appearing, like bills, etc. You need to be strong in the meantime and take everything in your stride. It is very easy to LB. <P>2/.It will be difficult to call the first few times but you should get used to it. The maiden name idea is a novelty. My W just used an unlisted number when she moved to create the same affect of limited contact.<P>3/. When she decides to come back all books like HN/HN and SAA will be welcomed by her I am sure. I know my W read them all when she came back. The only downside itmay be a negative when they see that it is all a strategy to get them back (SAA).<P>4/. It sounds like she is still moving through the cycle of the relationship. I would not be concerned that if the OM is out of the picture why hasn't she returned. All the affects of Plan A that you have done and the isolation she will feel should give her time to think about where she is at. The key to all this is patience as you know.<P>5/. Very true Rick, most important that you show that you are still happy and working on yourself. The more confidence and independence she sees in you the more desirable you become in her eyes. I talk from experience here as I have been there.<P>Hope this all helps at this difficult time.

Rick, my H was elated also about moving out. He was so excited telling me about his "sparse living arrangements". We even went out as a family for dinner the night before he moved out.<P>The next weeks he spent a lot of time filling the place up. He also asked if I wanted to see it...that was in Feb. I have yet to see it or even drive by it. IN fact, I do not even know his address.<P>The whole thing has been so alien to me, that I chose to just detach from it all.<P>The elation fell, however OW and the paranoia seemed to fuel his interest for awhile...along with all the lies.<P>I think going if she asks a number of times is ok. Just try to be nonchalant about it. They seem to look for any negative to tag onto you. It's funny, because I really did not give him a hard time...but he kept telling Ow who told her H, who told me, that I was constantly yelling and screaming.<P>I think no matter what I did he would view it that way...but he was very deep then...(he is having a "big" MLC).<P>I only lost it when I knew what OW was going to do to his reputation and the lengths she would go to to "get" him...but even though I was right, he seems to not be concerned about those things.... So I stopped worrying about him.<P>I cannot stress enough how tough this is on the kids. Besides counseling, I really focused on prayer..and faith. My kids have come a long way...(as I have) in our faith.<P>I truly believe it is what is guiding us along this journey.<P>I keep praying that my H will come out of the tunnel...he will peek out more than before, but he is not through yet.<P>You are doing all the right things...detaching and plan A. Whatever happens you will feel very good about how you have acted. For every action, there is a reaction..... (and usually consequence). You cannot control the actions of others, only yourself. It is a very narrow (and lonely) path we are on.... I know you can do it...plus you don't realize this, but you are teaching and giving your children so much by the way you are behaving.<P>Lovingly let her go. Just be her friend...at times you may feel like a stranger...just be a friendly stranger. <P>If things come up with the kids..just ask.. I have dealt with a lot with mine.. I have a 5 year old D, a 9 year old S, and an 11 y.o.D....

Dear Rick,<P>I think you should consider like tootrusting, just detach from it all, as hard as it may be for you.<P>Let her go... Oh, how I wish I were back in the "deciding" era of this whole nightmare...I can honestly say now, I would not have chosen the get back together and try to recover game.<P>I have all but given up on this aspect, it is too much work and really not worth the effort. I only wish it were one year ago and I knew all I know now, I would surely take a different road. I would be free and clear in the eyes of God. He would accept my decision as just, and He would take very good care of me.<P>Let her go... you are worth far more than she can imagine and there is someone in this great world who will love you and appreciate you for the wonderful man you are.<P>Give yourself some time and don't think of this as a loss. Think of it as a gain in your favor. You shouldn't have to deal with the likes of her self-centered soul. You are too kind, man. Stand up for yourself and don't let her push you around anymore or call the shots. You are making her unfaithful lifestyle to easy for her. <P>Cathy<BR>

Just checking up on you......<P>I'll give you my experience, don't know whether or not it'll be of help.<P>1. Nope - but I don't really think PT would have wanted me there! If he were living alone, yes, absolutely, I would have gone.<P>2. Call the number when you need to...you'll get more used to it, not that it's pleasant, but not a big deal. I called about 4 times in 7 months, but that's 'cause it was PT's house too and she usually answered the phone....THAT was uncomfortable. Let her initiate contact...she needs the space as much as anything, but make YOU someone she enjoys being with. Your Plan A hasn't been for very long now, if I recall correctly...definitely keep it up. Took a long time for your marriage to get where it is.....takes more than a couple of months to bring it back, particularly since the time she was REALLY with OM, didn't count for much (I mean, it DID, but not like it does afterward, oh, you know what I mean!)<P>3. Robert has never, probably WILL never, read a single relationship book. Not even too thrilled if I tell him that I read one and this is what it says. However, he does do very very well if I just present the stuff as "things I heard" or "concepts to think about". But none of that happened until he came home. Hey, you don't need her to like or read anything. You arm yourself with knowledge and you can just lead the way.<P>4. It ain't over. Not in her heart and head. They may be trying the "friendship" thing (been there, done that), but it ain't over. And withdrawal truly hasn't started. THAT'S why she's moving. The alien still inhabits her mind and heart and the fog is as thick as ever. Thicker, actually, I believe. How can I put this? When Robert thought he was "in love" with PT, it made sense he'd want to leave me. When he truly believed that he and PT were done and just "very good friends" (not true, though, he was trying) he felt that the fact that he didn't want to be with me THEN was because he really didn't. The stuff with PT and the beginning withdrawal was clouding his judgement and he didn't even know there was anything TO cloud his judgement. Does that make any sense at all? Future or not...he's still in her life and heart and she's got to have time to push him out on her own. You just be there, if you can.<P>5. This is touchy. I don't believe in "faking" anything. But I found that if I changed my perspective, I wasn't really faking. Certainly I wasn't thrilled to death that my husband was living with a girl 20 years my junior. BUT, I WAS very happy to have a chance to see him (it was so rare) and spend time with him, or talk to him on the telephone, so THAT'S what I focused on. See what I mean. 'Stead of whining 'cause he was planning a life with someone else, I just enjoyed the time we had together. And he could SEE I was enjoying it. That made me a good place to be.<P>6. Well, since Mom lived 1 1/2 miles away, there was no keeping that a secret. So I told her when he left. That's ALL I told her - we were having some problems and he left....period. I told no other family members anything except my brother 'cause I knew he'd understand and he lives a few hours away. I figured it was nobody's business. Mom never knew about PT, nothing. Still doesn't. And my family all know that I cherish my privacy and will share info only if I choose to, so no one asked. If they had, I'd have told them it was between me and Robert. Because that's what I believe. I don't tell people things about our personal life, never have. As far as I was concerned this was OUR business, no one else's. Not that I did it to protect him, but, one big bonus, very little ammunition for friends and family members to use against him when he came home! There are enough problems recovering without family members being angry too. If you need their support or need them as confidantes then, by all means, talk to them. If not, it's not necessary "for honesty's sake". IMHO<P><BR>I'll be quiet now. You follow your instincts. We're doing great, btw. Just married and living and getting ready for the holidays. Gotta run..today's his b-day and got lots to do!<P>Good luck.<P>Lori<BR>

All the information you have provided to me is incredibly helpful, and will benefit my situation. Thanks very much.<P>And I think I realized something this morning. Regardless of what she and OM are attempting (regarding reverting to friends), it probably is not over, as suggested. The odd thing is that what is going on makes more sense if it isn't over. She called me at 7PM last night, then said she had to go and would call me back, which didn't happen. So she arrived at 6AM (said she would yesterday) to our house. I said I was worried, and she said "oh, I fell asleep on the couch, then woke up at 2, tried to go to the bathroom, but since it is a different layout, I ended up outside locked out. Then I walked to the people's house that used to live here, and got a key from them". Why tell such a silly story when there was no need to do so. Translation - I was at OMs house (or vice versa). She was in a rotten mood this morning though. She's always mad at someone.<P>It is going to be quite a ride, I'm sure. I'm just worried the first thing she'll want to do if it isn't all it is cracked up to be, is start taking the kids there. Have to wait and see. Cause this business of coming over to our house at 6AM surely won't last long. Thanks again for listening and helping.<P>

Hi Rick, here's my 2 cents based on my situation:<P>1. Do you go to your spouses place at all? Mine seems to want to invite me there in the near future.<P>My wife initially had grandiose plans to have me over for dinner, etc. Even said she was going to give me a key. None of this happened. Only time she asks me to come over now is to bring/pickup our son or to help her fix her computer or other problem involving the use of tools.<P>2. Do you initiate contact at their new place, or just be nice when you talk to them. <P>Yes, I call her whenever I have a legitimate reason - mostly having to do with our son and setting up plans for exchanges, etc. and the few times we've done family things. She calls me for the same reasons. Neither one of us has called to talk about us. Strictly business.<P>3. Do you think it is possible for someone so against books (like HN/HN, SAA) to eventually open up to that idea, assuming they express an interest in coming back?<P>Yes, IMHO it depends on how much they want to try to make it work.<P>4. If relationship is possibly over with OM, yet she is still moving, how bad of a sign is that? Given that about 6 weeks ago, she said she loved him, never felt that way before, etc., if they we're attempting only friendship now, is it likely that she's still foggy from it all, even though she may know there isn't future with OM?<P>She's zoomin' you. She doesn't know what she wants and, like my wife, probably changes her mind several times a day. It's like watching the stock market every day - don't do it - it'll drive you nuts.<P>5. I have a hard time being at all cheery when she mentions the new place. I suppose I should get over that? I suppose I should make like everything is great here and make it a fun place.<P>You don't have to be all cheery - just don't LB. Don't go out of your way to make it a fun place unless you can justify that in Plan A.<P>6. How do you handle your family members?<P>My side of the family knows all, but they're far away and can't interfere. Her side is closer and knows pretty much based on very early communication after d-day I had with them seeking help - I'm very close with them. Since then they've pretty much put 2 and 2 together to figure stuff out on their own and they're very unhappy with her, but are waiting for her to come to them for help before becoming directly involved.<P>WAT

Rick, LostVa really has a lot of great insight. Luckily for her Robert got a handle on it quickly.<P>I agree with what she says about the fog being even thicker if and when they start questioning the "in love" with the OW aspect.<P>My H has daily contact with OW.. They work closely together and in a sense, due to the new circumstances he is trapped in the situation. But I can tell you it has been impossible for me to even get across to him that spending that much time with someone else....being friends (that's how it all started) and then crossing over had any impact on his relationship with me and the kids.<P>I realized early on that I had to stand back and let him figure it out on his own. For some of these WS...they have difficulty figuring out WHAt they want or need...and who is the cause of them NOT getting it.<P>I guess it's the process of growing up. Hopefully they will. But they themselves are the ones who have to come to terms with giving rather than getting. <P>We all know the grass is not greener on the other side, it's just different grass.<P>As hard as it is, just try to be her friend and try not to take the projections from her.<P>If she is really self-centered (as it sounds) she may come and go with regards to the kids. I see that with my H. Sometimes he is very connected and then he seems to bakc away from them again....as he tries to fill his time with his needs... running so to speak.<P>Just try to make the transitions as easy for them as you can. My kids have had a hard time with the transitions. It almost works better when he just comes over here, which he does often, and then leaves as they go to bed. He's not too involved other than that, but I can see he is still struggling inside.<P>My H is in individual counseling which i hope is helping, but I don't reallyknow because I do not ask... but I know he appreciates the fact that I do not ask....that I just accept... I do this without compromising my respect. I just lovingly detach right now. That's all I can do. It's tiring, but I find myself very consumed with taking care of the kids and though my needs are being forsaken, I have found ways, via volunteering, that allows me to meet the needs of the many others who need more than me!!!!

1. 1st my H lived with a friend. I went there occasionally, usually when with H to check his mail or if he needed to pick something up. When he got his own place, he invited me over and I went. Always made me want to cry.<P>2. We usually called each other at least once a day (14 nonconsecutive months of separations) <P>3. He really didn't care to read the books until the last separation, when he wanted me back.<P>4. Our last 2 separations 0ct-Nov 99 & Jan-May 00 were after the affair was really over, except for some email, calling & seeing each other at work. She had begun dating his former housemate.<P>5. Make your place a safe, comfortable place for her to be. I didn't do that the first separation & he devloped an aversion to both house & me. If you go to her house...do your best to be a good guest, but not act like it is *your* house.<P>6. I told my family members within the first month. I don't know when his family found out...at least one brother called for him and I gave him H's new ph #. My family has welcomed my H back into the family. Their attitude, one I fostered, is if I want him and can forgive him, it really isn't any of their business to shun him. During the last separation, when he wanted to make amends, he called my parents and apologized for hurting their daughter (me). I didn't like it at the time, thought he was trying to use them to manipulate me into working on the marriage, since I had served divorce papers, but now I think it showed a real & sincere change of heart on his part. <P>Rick, separation is not the end of anything. I don't think it helps a marriage, but getting back together is very possible. Although, you don't want to separate & move back together as often as we did. That made no sense, but I think my H & I were always hopeful that we could make it work, but it would fall apart...and now we are making it work.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Rick,<P>Good Luck! It is hard not to LB.<P>My H & lived apart for 6 mths. Our sons & then only 1 spent only 1 night there, he really wasn't set up for them. His apt. was very close to home, he was at our home almost every night he was in town (or says he was, he was in town with the OW some but the boys didn't know, & I wasn't supposed to), he helped pick up from sports, take to pratice, half of the time we went to church togather (not the congergation where we attended for 18 yrs, he could never face anyone), ate dinner together. He only moved back in when I wanted to set up a custdoy agreement, we could not agree. I wish I could tell you we had worked things out but I think we our farther apart then ever. However I don't regret letting him be with boys as much as he wanted/needed to be, they need him.

Rick-<BR>I feel for you. I'm in the same situation. My H has been gone for about 2 1/2 months now.<P>So, wanted to point out a couple of things to you that have happened with us. One is your question about it being over with OM and if so, why move. There have been several times in my Hs relationship with OW that he thought it was over. I had the same thoughts that you are having now. But after talking with H, I finally realized that in his mind, it's not her or me. He felt that the marriage was over, had already emotionally divorced before he got involved in A. He also had to tell himself that OW had nothing to do with our problems in order to justify the A in his mind. So, I do know that the A has to be over before anything can really move forward in the marriage, but after the A is over, he will still need to work through some stuff before he will be able to recommit to me.<P>As far as going to her house, I have been to my Hs house about 5 or 6 times. It does hurt, but is a little easier each time. I know this is mean, but I hate the thought of his house being some kind of love nest for them. I want him to have some memories of my presence there also. I don't even know if she has visited him there. <P>This is a very hard situation, but in my case, the general stress level in the house has decreased significantly. And it makes me feel better that he is missing some of the comforts of home and is lonely. He still has only a kitchen table and chairs and bedroom furniture. His TV only gets 3 channels because he can't afford cable. He has no beds for the kids, so they can't spend the night with him. They don't even want to go there other than for a few minutes because they have nothing to do and no friends to play with. That means that he comes here to visit with them. Sometimes I do feel like a doormat, but I'm glad things are not working out exactly like he planned. I think it will help in long run. <P>I know this is long, but maybe it helped you in some way???

Thanks for all the advice, once again. If you wonder if it helps, it really does, and it came at a time when I needed it. I asked specific questions because they were really on my mind, and your answers were extremely helpful. Thanks for taking the time to write so much.<P>She did come home at 6 AM again today, just before the kids woke up, and asked if she could come in the bed. So she did, and she said she was scared last night (gets that way...I am glad to hear that!) and also cold. Tonight she mentioned on the phone that her back is sore, "probably because you haven't rubbed it" is what she said. Who knows, maybe these things are true, or maybe she says those things because OM is there, but she is trying to make it seem like he isn't. But I don't think so, from the little I do know. Doesn't really matter I suppose. I just do the best I can.<P>So, the kids haven't noticed yet, or at least nothing different that the last several months. The house was always calm, but it does almost seem calmer, just that the house purchase of hers is out of the way I guess. I feel like "a next phase" is underway. Something has to come out of this phase, so although I don't like the separation, I think it will make something happen, one way or the other. At least she experiences this "new life" for what it is. She also said this morning that she misses the kids at night, and that I am lucky because I am with them. I will continue to fear that she'll all of a sudden want them over at her place, but hopefully that won't be for a long time (or never I hope). <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited November 07, 2000).]

Rick, I responded to you the other day and I was not quite as elonquent as Lostva.<P>Having a wretched night and doing a self imposed respond-a-thon.<P>CT