This is an update of sorts, though many of you have no clue about my history...I'll just vent or express my feelings about this much anticipated revelation.<P>After having a sucky weekend and several days of feeling very distant to my H because he doesn't "get it" with meeting my emotional needs, I decided to tell him that I was thinking about getting a job downtown at a florist instead of working for him.<P>Of course he wanted to know why and what was up with me lately...I told him how unhappy and still confused I was because I don't feel like we are making any positive improvements or progress in this marriage. I also mentioned that I would never be able to fill her shoes (OW) because he obviously saw in her elements to treasure that he will never see in me. I flat out asked him why he came back home.<P>He went on to say that we had troubles before he met her (true!) and the A really had nothing to do with her, she just filled a need and he progressed on with the A fully knowing it was wrong.<P>He couldn't stand knowing this was the wrong thing for him to be doing and when I found out and the children knew also, he came home because, #1. He couldn't bare to live with the embarrassment he had caused himself and his family in the community. #2. He didn't think he could live with the guilt of knowing he had caused me so much pain and suffering, because he CARES about me. #3. OW was not of the same moral fiber as he and she had different, selfish ideas about doing what one wants to do to be happy even if it means walking over someone else to get it...<P>I told him I wish I had waited on him to come to the door and beg to come home because he loves me and wanted to be with only me for the rest of his life and he said I should have, because he still doesn't know if he really loves me, but he does know that he cares about me and that the word love is so undefineable and so mistaken and could mean many things to many people. He believes caring about someone can often be mistaken for loving someone.<P>He thinks we suffer from a blatant disregard for one another, and have no respect for each other. He thinks I have regressed and have done nothing to improve myself (make positive changes) to help our marriage. He has quit drinking in hopes he would feel more involved with this marriage. But I still smoke and have not lost any more weight and don't take the meds for depression tells him I am not fully committed either. <P>I told him I would not be fully committed because I will never represent to him what she represented. He will never treasure me the way he did her.<P>This is going absolutely nowhere, I am rambling on like some idiot and have no idea what it is I need to say to complete this post. I really think I should go get that job and start squirreling away funds to get my own place and start a new life. I literally hate it here, we will never feel the same about each other ever again... things are too different now and not so much for the better.<P>I know and would bet my life on it that there is someone out there who will treasure me just as he treasured her and make me feel very good about myself once again. But I need to bow up and make myself feel good again... I don't like this dejected, second best, I CARE about you, but don't love you crap. What have I been for the last 31 and 1/2 years? How can you live with someone for that length of time and just CARE about them?<P>I am so CONFUSED, I feel desperate!!!<P>Cathy <BR>

I'm depressed and feeling dejected, but I am thrilled about G.W. Bush and I think I'll sit right here and drink another Mich light and answer or respond to every post on this page.<P>CT

Cathy--you are up late again!!! I work graveyard shift, and I still lurk when things around the fab are slow! Shame on you! You are loosing sleep over this!!<P>This is exactly what I got, the "I care about you" speach. My H came back (we are talking the time he did come back--no we are still apart) for all the same reasons yours did. He didn't bust down my door with passionate love for me--he did it out of obligation. You know how that makes me feel?<BR>Like dukey. Like I don't deserve to be loved, I am just an unpleasant task that needs to be completed--because he "cares."<P>Know what? In my time away from him (I truly realize now that this separation from him is a GOOD thing!) I have found myself, and I like what I see. Really.<P>I am talanted. I can endure. I am resourceful, and responsible. I am even-tempered (he maintains that I am not--just because he isn't) I work hard. I have a good time with people, I laugh and joke with my co-workers and friends and family. I am a good mom. I think that I am pretty, maybe a little pudgy, but heck, that can be dealt with and I still look pretty good for being 34 and having three kids. I have good morals--I know this. I have a good character. I would give my all to a friend.<P>Cathy--back up for a moment and see who you are without him. Even if he is your husband of decades, his opinion of you and his value of you does NOT determine the person that you are (and I know for a fact that you are a VERY GOOD person) Think of who you are to your friends. Think of who you are to your children. Your age and your weight do not matter. These things do not stop you from living, do they? So why should stop you from being happy? It's you and what you do that does matter. Look in the mirror.<P>As for the OW--when I was fussing about Miss Kitty to a friend (What does she have that I don't have?!) I was told "Look what she doesn't have and you do: That's character. She can be model gorgeous, make tons of money, and be popular with people with her whit and charm. That does not make her a person of character, like I know that you are."<P>Well, I gotta go for now, got work to do, but think about this, Madame. Your worth does NOT depend upon his skewed opinions. Step aside and take a good look at yourself--you'll like what you see.<P>Ps--Amen: Bush won. It was my vote that did it, I just know it! LOL<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited November 08, 2000).]

Thanks Bern for the reply, you make me feel better. You know, I know what you say is true about my worth and value. But, why is it that I or we need to hear it or feel it from them to believe it?<P>It is so confusing and upsetting. I wish I could just walk away and never think twice about making the decision to do so. I wonder if that would bring me true happiness to know that I can make it on my own.<P>Maybe that is what some of us have missed out on all these years. We leave our Dad and live with our H and never really experience life without that male figure or support. <P>So puzzled and zoned out with confusion tonight!!!<P>Thanks again,<P>CT<p>[This message has been edited by Catplay (edited November 08, 2000).]

Oh Ya'll, <P>I think I'm gonna jump ship now, I be so tired. I was going to try to respond to all threads on this page, got about half way through and gotta go to bed now. Maybe I will resume tomorrow. Maybe NOT!!!<P>Love to all,<P>CT

Hi...I had to talk here for a sec. You've gotten some great advice.....it IS all about what you are, with or without your hubby.<P>But his reasons, Honey, they're really not a big deal.<P>When Robert decided to come home, he did it b/c of a song. Not a lovey-dovey made his heart melt song, but a what-kind-of-scum-are-you song. He felt he should. He felt he had to. He felt he couldn't look himself in the mirror the rest of his life if he didn't. He cared for me....yup, exact word he used when he finally told me. I didn't "turn him on" physically, though he admitted that other men would find me attractive and he found pretty much all other women attractive. He had "made a vow and he had to stick to it, no matter how he felt." How's THAT for romance, my dear? <P>Fill my emotional needs if I asked? Surely you are kidding! Second thoughts, third thoughts, tenth thoughts about his decision. Absolutely. I do believe that he finally decided just before he actually came home that he'd better at least try to make things pleasant or life would be hell for both of us. That helped. He was committed to the marriage, committed to staying, committed to keeping his word, but NOT to the relationship. There's a big difference.<P>Some of my close MB friends know this. I found it all out in bits and pieces early on. I don't know why, but it didn't floor me right away, almost like I expected it. I heard so many people on this board say the REASON didn't matter, we could change the reason, whether it's because he "should" or because of the kids, or whatever. I believed it. I guess it was naive, but it's a good thing I did.<P>Begging for forgiveness and aching to make it up to me? Not hardly. He believed that it was as much my fault as his that he did what he did. "Just forget the past and my little fling (don't you love that?) and we'll move on from here." Although he did apologize for hurting me, but acknowledged that I was a strong woman and he knew I'd be ok. AAUUUGGGHHHHH!!!<P>I believed in us. I believed he loved me but that love was buried under all the hard times and bad habits. I worked on me, hard and strong. I didn't change. I found myself. I liked me. He liked me. He laughed with me. And then, he loved me. Before I knew what was happening, my husband told me he was "in love" with me - madly and completely. I was a total package.<P>I heard from my BIL just recently about some advice Robert gave someone in front of him on their impending separation. "You two loved each other enough to get married, you can love each other again, if you decide to do it. Look what happened with me and Lori. I'm finally happier than I've ever been in my life and I'm gonna make sure that Lori is happy, too."<P>Now, 10 months later, he picked up one of my books - the nine million relationship books around here. "Is this one good?" "Yes, but I like this one better." "Hmmmm, maybe I'll read it." Came home early a couple of Tuesdays to watch Dr. Phil on Oprah with me. ASKED me if he could do anything better. Tells me how wonderful I am and how glad he is my husband.<P>You have to decide what's best for you, but I don't really think the reason matters, nor does it really matter if he's gonna help you, if he believes it will ever happen or not. Robert didn't . What matters is what YOU believe and what YOU do. You can determine his strength, his beliefs, his heart.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<BR>

Sorry Cathy,<P>I hate to read posts like this. Makes me see that if they come back the hard work and pain is only continuing.<P>I love what Lori has to say, but I can see how hard it is to keep up your confidence and selfesteem in the face of them continueing to say things to you that are so hurtfull. It is a good warning to all of us to continue to keep expectations low and not expect our needs to be met for a long time yet. GRRRRR.<P>Maybe we need a post on how to do that, how to keep working on things when they are back, but not committed. Maybe some other people can give you suggestions on what worked for them. I know I will have a really hard time if that happens too. When do we get to take a rest and just coast? Maybe you feel if you do that, if you arent giving 150% to your relationship that he will not stay, or will stop giving the 50% he is now.<BR>But I wonder if that is true? If you take more care of yourself and your needs, if you stop pushing him and back off, distance a little, maybe he will start to see what he can loose. Sometimes when one person is giving alot, I think the other person gives less.<P>I'm not sure if what I said made any sense. Maybe someone can say it better than me.<BR>Lora

Hi Cathy,<P>Looks like noone has won yet thanks to my dear home state. We can't count down here. Let's see one, dos , trois, what comes next??<P>Seriously, I think Lostva already said what came to my mind reading your post. It is soooo hard to hear that...<P>I heard it all too, except he wasn't sorry for the pain he caused me. First, you have to wrestle with your own feelings about your self. Do you REALLY believe he is better off with OW? Then, like I did, I think you could first look at how you are betraying yourself!<P>I betrayed myself far more than my h did. Dr. McGraw says it helps to personify your "Life Manager" as if it was a different person. She has one client: you, and you can't fire her. So what has she done for you?<P>When I came to grips with loving and respecting myself, I no longer cared as much whether h did or not. As it turned out, he did. One day, he was suddenly very much in-love with me again. Huh? I still want to see this worked out over the long haul. But I will never disrespect MYSELF that way again.<P>Does this make sense? I hope you can find peace, aside from your h.

Catplay,<BR>I wrote out a long reply to your last topic...and aol signed me off. I was so mad I lost my whole train of thought.<P>You maybe know Guard & I are in our 7th reconciliation, now 6 months...and our longest by 3 months. Before our last separation Jan 00 I remember going for a walk and thinking, is this all there ever will be? Can I settle for a warm body in bed...and not having my needs met? Part of me thought I could. Part of me figured he was only home for the holidays Thanksgiving thru New Years and it wouldn't have to be my decision. Although he did leave shortly after New Years, I really pushed him for the emotional connection, and, when pushed, he feels I'm a bottomless pit that he'll never make happy.<P>Guard decided in Feb that he really wanted me & the kids. I was so done with trying. I was cold-hearted. The love I felt for him was based on our past, I hadn't seen the part of him I loved in a long time--years. And I said no, I wouldn't reconcile. I served divorce papers, I hastened to jump into a new life.<P>Somehow, somehow with God's help, my H pulled it all together, and HE stood for our marriage.<P>Making the decision to try again was like the scream of a train stopping in my soul.<P>And even though I originally did Plan A for 18 months, it was then that my H was strong enough to hold steady long enough for me to gain confidence to say I'd meet him halfway. No more my 120% and his "I can't commit to you".<P>We've avoided falling back into the patterns that were so destructive pre-affair and during the other "tries". We've gone to counseling, we've both read the books, we work to spend the 15 hours a weeks together, we've gone off on the Mexican vacation & a couple other long weekends.<P>He's in love with me. I'm in love with him.<P>We had a terrible fight last Thursday--too much to drink, he was out for 2 hours, which drove me crazy, even though he called. All my insecurities zoom, zoom, zoomed. Which makes him fear he can't "make me happy".<P>It was just a bad scene. He didn't walk out. Neither did I--though at one point I had my coat & shoes on.<P>The next day, he put his arms around me and said, "I love you so much. I wouldn't be here every day with you in this house if I didn't. And someday you will believe me."<P>I think that may well be one of the most beautiful things he has ever said to me.<P>I guess what I am trying to say is, there is always hope. There aren't many people who make it through 7 separations, 14 months out of 20. But I can say, even though I do not believe separation aids a marriage, in this last, the longest at 5 months, we both found ourselves. I knew that my life without Guard would be complicated, but I really could manage it, even though being without him was not my optimal plan. He discovered that being single, being treated by me like we were divorced and the paperwork being processed was not what he wanted. <P>There are moments that I think I must be nuts to have tried reconciliation so many times, but each time was a bit different, it took a long time for all the components of our marriage to come back together. Now our marriage fires on all cylinders, but not all of them everyday, we'll be finetuning...forver?<P>I think of how smart and intentional my behavior was during the best parts of my doing Plan A well. I know I can't ever go back to thinking "oh, it'll be alright" with the important things. And now I know what the important, and unimportant things are.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Some of these posts are very inspirational, but why, please tell me why, is it always the woman who has to do all the work? Maybe I'm off base, maybe I'm just bitter, maybe I should just settle for ho hum! I don't know.<P>I married one man 9 months ago and I end up with some jerk! I got the raw end of the deal and he just doesn't seem affected by it all.<P>But I still love him - go figure! It must be self mutilation! <P>Sorry to vent and rain on your parade!<P>LK

oh cathy.... i know! i know!<BR>i also know H didnt come home begging and knoccking the door down and pleading for forgivness and saying all the right things...<BR>he was a plain ole drunk..never taking responsiblity for things said while drunk or actions donw while drunk..same ole same ole.. i was drunko dont remember stuff!! does that matter NOPE! still unexcusable.. he showed he cared more for the booze than he did the family or marriage.. and he was a serious negative influence on our 10 yr old son .. i had to put a stop tothat..and told him i wouldnt tolerate being aroundhim drunk anymore .. and i was not going to be inthehouse with him drinking either.. he had some choices to make andi went to moms while he sobered up one weekend... well the next week he decides he cant handle sober..so he staysout all night mon and tues while i am at moms he is out partying.. i didnt understand <BR>wedn eh decides to be sober enough to see son <BR>and tells me he understands and is sorry and all he can do is stop drinking <BR>so all is to be well on thrusday but he never comes home that night...at all<BR>and he calls from wherever to quit his job on fri... i get a call fri night ... he is sober.hehad been doing lots of soul searching... he wanted his family... we agreed to meet for breakfast<BR>on sat... and i had to work so he kept son that day without a drink. i didnt stay at home that night..i met him after work at a friends house for a cook out and was totally ignored for two hours ...i had to think this whole thing thru a little bit more ...<BR>so i went over on sunday... and we had a very rewarding comforting mature talk ..lots of things out in the open and lots of guidelines made for our relationship ....we had made a big step in my willingness to support him and put forth effort to a man who had made some self destructive choices..i was so believing in him .... we would be celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary in 8 weeks... and we had been together for 22 years.. by the way i am 37 and he is 39we were having this conversation privately..the son had went to a friends house to allow us time to have a controlled discussion..it was very comforting and myheart melted to see his remorse.. and to see his desire to make up for the hurt and to say he would stop drinking( although i considered him an alcoholic that needed some professional help) i let him melt me and convince me he would do this because heloved his family and me and our marriage... it was good to be home and feel wanted ..and loved... UNTIL..... we started some fondling and stuff and i noticed things on his body that just didnt look right...and asked bout them ... he first said well that must have happened when we were getting * cozy* NAHi said ..those are not fresh.. then he said he had been wrestling with his guy friends son one of the nights he was away from the house.... andif i didnt believe him i could call the guy up and ask him.... i was panicking inside....i couldnt leave well enough alone and said oh that was one of then ights you should have beenhome with your own son but chose to drink at buddies house instead of coming home??he said yes ...well uh i had a gut feeling you might say.. and didnt want to know the feeling was right.... so i said to him look mein the eyes..and promise to me that you have not been with another woman this past week and that is the reason your knees have 4 huge sores on them ... just look me in the eye and promise me that.....( oh man ! i was hoping with alli had to hope for) (beware of the questions you ask you might not get the answer you want...)he couldnt look at me and said i cant do that ...my heart was shattered...i said what?????? he said i cant do that... i cant look you in the eye and promise you that...i thoughti was going to pass out right then and there and anger hit me so hard i have never in my entire life felt so much anger but i was not mad at him.... i was mad at me....oh how gullible oh how stupid.... oh how could i care enough to have been talking calm to this man all weekend caring bout our family and his drinking and willing to support this man i loved for the benefit of our marriage which i loved and adored ...oh i was jsut tooo good for my own good.... i had never called this man names except * arrogant a**hole once**and he teased me bout it for weeks...we were not perfect but i was the giver and he was the taker... he was the man and most the times it was his way or no way...myworld revolved around trying toplease this man and making his life happy... i didnt know what it meant to be self centered and demanding...i always told myself it could be worse...andsmiled for the next day much like a woman who had been phsycally abused ... covered up my damage but only with a smile not a long sleeve shirt...i was too committed to my marriage to let it be defeated....but this night i went berserk ...<BR>i was so mad at me....why why why why why was all i could ask.... our marriage had never experienced this ever before...not even the threat of it...i was out of control... and he was afraid and sad and being very quiet while i ranted around the house.. he was not sure how to make things better for me and the more he sat nottalking the more i ranted...andhe called my mom to come calm me down and had to explainto her when she arrived jsut what was going on since she had never seen me in such a mood... to make a long story short i packed his bags he made arrangements to move in with a guy friend and he left the next day..yes he revealed ,who,when , where and of course the i dont why ! the son was clueless.... H had said hewould come back after he got things settled in when i got off work and son would be home... and we would have family descussion... ha ha ha ... i didnt see him for 5 days...i talked to him a few times on the phone.. and i asked where he was staying and why he had not come by ... he told me he was at the guys house he had made arrangements with ...notknowing i had called the guy and he told me he wasnt living there... soi confronted bout it and he said well.. i am at another guys house.. i went by the first guys house and it jsut wasnt going to work out so i saidthen why lie when i asked you were you were staying .. he said i just dont knwo what i am doing.. i am so confused.... i had my suspicions...wheni asked for the other guys number..( why did i even care) becausei am the nurturer and we had children..i dont know..anyway he told me the guy had no phone..lol... well my suspicions were confirmed later that week when he pickedup son from sitters to have supper and to see him for the first time in 3 days..he called to say he was taking him back to sitters and i could pick him up there ..i said to him we need to talk ... but he had other plans... he had a party to go to..omg.. i asked if he knew waas going to be with her..and he said i am not going to answer that ..i asked how it felt to know he had chose booze and OW over his family...he refused to answer..and said he would come by the next day to workon sepration agreement..but he never did nor did he call.. he called the following day to come by ..and he did and he <BR>could not look me in the eye to tell me where he was really staying ..and then finally admitted to having moved in with OW... now he had chose booze and OW over family for sure...but he said it was not true it was out of convenience only to stay at her place... he had nowhere else to go...oh boooo hoooo...<BR>he said he would prove it to me by going and moving out that night into a motel or something... maybe family or friends.. till we could figure what had to be done...<BR>stupid me i trusted him again ...he was very convincing and told mehow much he loved his family and me.. and he would show me...( why did i even care)<BR>after he left i started coming to mysenses alittle<BR>and i rode by her house 4 hours later... ha<BR>he was there<BR>and i looked in windows<BR>and they were in bed asleep all cozy...<BR>i left and called him at her house... she answered andi said tell him to smile..<BR>i went home changed lockson door <BR>wrote out new sepration agreement and was prepared to move on ..... i called him next day and said time to face facts..... no more games .... you should come over and be a man and talk to your son and tell him the truth ... he is living on false hopes and is very upset with me thinking that i wont let dad come home because of drinking... he came over and he couldnt do it... he couldnt do it... he couldnt do it... much like the response lori gave... <BR>he said to son ..i want to be honest<BR>i have made bad choices<BR>i hurt this family<BR>i hurt you and mom <BR>i love you both with all myheart<BR>i want to come home and be a better dad and husband<BR>omg omg omg<BR>the son was extremely excited... and i again .. was mixed with emotions.. i allowed him to again manipulate me. and do it his way or no way .....he went back to her place that night and spent the night and packed his stuff after she went to work ..and called her to say he was going home... and he camehome to tell methings would be different.....he took on a new job.. he has been home now for 14 days ... and in the last 10 days i have seen him maybe 15 hours... he has not spent a nightin our home in 10 days... he is now a long haul truck driver. he has beena driver for 14 yrs but never long haul.. always local home everynight stuff.. but not now... he calls daily for bout 5 min ..has yet to say i miss you .. and when he come in he is so shy not knowing what to say or do ...i told him i need his assurance and his hugs and his kisses but when i have to initiate them it dont prove to me that he is making things different... he has been home 3 time times in 10 days.. once only for 4 hours but i only got to see him 30 min i had to go to work . and once for only 6 hours but slept 4 of them so i got to see him 2 hours.. and theother for 5 hours but he slept for 3 of them .. ohi am rambling... fact is i want to belive this is not the end... he said he dont think i will ever get over it..and he jsut isnt the affectionate kind of man that he is afraid it will take to make me heal... i told him he is the one that said he wanted to come home.. and i knew i could heal...but thought he was going to be part of that process... and if i was going to have to heal myself. he was going to be !00 % out of the picture.. he asked if i wanted that.. of course i said no.. and he said i am giving all i can give.. yall i am so afraid ... how long does this healing stuff take... when i expressed my feelings to him .. he said i thought we were going to put this behind us... and drop it.. and move on... i said i am not bringin up topics of the past i am expressing how i feel because of them and what i need to feel better... he jsut dont understand ....<BR>omg yall i am going to explode....

Dear Catplay,<P>I didn't read the replies to your thread but picked up your idea of working again. My family has been trying to get me out to work again.<P>I believe that you will find a new sense of worth and fulfilment. You will also be able to keep your mind on constructive things and save some dosh for your later years for presents and treats.<P>You will also be able to enlarge your social circle and get on with your life faster than if you have to be home to wait for news about your H and his latest thoughts on the marriage. Really all these inane words about his confusion is doing little to help with your recovery and letting go. If you have other agenda such as a part-time or full-time work, you will be able to focus on some things half the time. <P>I hope you feel slightly better today.<P>God bless you<BR>take care<BR>weep

I have to stop reading these posts. I'd give my right arm for my H to come home - I don't care for what reason. The depression and maybe the guilt and the OW has taken everything that made my H what he was and destroyed it. Things that had nothing to do with me. She has taken the loving father that he used to be and killed him, as surely as if she had used a gun.

Catplay,<P>I know that it is hard when you know your H is only there because he just cares for you. I hate those words.<P>Reading some of the replies reminded me of some things my H has said. We are now occupying the same house. I don't think either of us tries. (I am very sure he is still in contact with OW & maybe has plans but she is in the US & we are in Asia.) One of my H's biggest problem with me is weight. I have lost but was due to stress but have kept that off for over a yr. & done little to lose more. I was reminded about this article from Joe Beam maybe it will help me get my head on straight, <A HREF="http://www.heartlight.org/articles/200004/20000422_love3.html," TARGET=_blank>http://www.heartlight.org/articles/200004/20000422_love3.html,</A> <P>My long winded point agrees with others we all have to work on ourselves to be happy. If our spouses learn to love us again great & if for some reason they don't, that is their loss. We will be better happier people, & open to whatever God has in store for us.<P>Good Luck, & God Bless, <P>God be with America whoever the next President will be.

I've read the replys and appreciate all the love and support you have given me...I couldn't spend much time responding today or tonight...So I'll get back to all of you later today...<P>I was up very late last night and here I am again...I need some rest, so bye for now...<P>Cathy