I read with interest your response to mscum.<BR>I would like you to explain to me and anyone else who might be interested, the concept of "generational curses" or the idea of sins of the fathers being visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation. What spiritual forces might be present in an adulterous situation?<BR>I ask because I am adopted and have a very sketchy history of my family of origin background. I know that my father had at least three wives (death? divorce?) and that my mother was into the wild life, most likely into alcohol, very depressed, and ran off with another man when I was quite young.<BR>From the age of 4 I was brought up in a morally upright home, but at midlife my marriage is a shambles, my wife has had an affair, I've had two, and we are struggling to pick up the pieces if it is possible. I despair sometimes.<BR>Spiritual forces. Unseen. Unnoticed but there? I once had an iteresting conversation with OW. (She is a WS and separated from an adulterer, too.) She said when I first started work, she noticed immediately that I "liked women." I asked her if I was that obvious. She said no, no one else had any idea, but being married to a similar type of man, she recognized that in me early on. Do you think people of "like spirits" are recognized by each other, on a unconscious but spiritual level? I am interested in what you have to say.<BR>Rockaway

Rockaway,<P>As you see I'm not weep, and our answers may well be different, but it's an interesting question.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would like you to explain to me and anyone else who might be interested, the concept of "generational curses" or the idea of sins of the fathers being visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation. What spiritual forces might be present in an adulterous situation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I certainly believe in the existence of both good and evil spirits, I have a more mundane answer to this. And even Satan had to get permission from God to strike Job.<P>I believe the sins of one generation are passed down to the next in two ways.<P>One is upbringing, parents are actually teaching their own sins by example (since kids learn mostly from what we do not what we say).<P>The other one is genetic. I think we are born with a predisposition to certain sins. This does not take away our own accountability to overcome these predispositions!<P>Depression, mental instability and suicide run strongly in my father's family. His mother killed herself when he was 11. Adultery also runs on both sides.<P>The positive answer in the Bible is that we CAN stop it right here. At the same time He says He will visit sins on future generations, He also says if we are upright, they will be blessed.<P>My biggest job in life has been to break that cycle. My h is the only man I've slept with. (I wish I could say the same for him.) I am dealing with the depression and the anger, considered suicide last year but knew I could not do that to my children.<P>I was abused as a child. This is another one the curse passes down. Abused children will almost always abuse their children or marry an abuser. It seems I didn't do a very good job selecting a husband after all. For several years we lived with his anger and I later became aware of his affairs. (But I want to be clear he has not been abusive).<P>But I see him changing right before my eyes. He too wants to pass down a different legacy to our kids and grandkids. Fortunately our kids are only 5 and 3, so there is still time to show them a difference.<P>And as part of this effort, I am getting counselling for the first time. There is so much betrayal in my life, from the sexual abuse as a child to my h's cheating...<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited November 09, 2000).]

Schizzo,<P>Thank you for your reply. I am mulling over your insights and will reply more in-depth after I see Weep's response.<P>Moving from my home of origin into my adoptive home was like moving from dark to light.<P>My adoptive parents are truly Godly people, focused on their quiet faith and service to others. I have been most fortunate. Their lives have been a wonderful example for me to emulate. No adultery, no verbal or physical abuse, no debilitating depression, no lack of esteem or confidence. I have been raised in a very good environment.<P>Although I have been raised with this good example and have embraced the church from an early age, my life inspite of my best intentions, has exbibited a preoccupation with women, titanic struggles with fending off bold sexual advances from some women, mild, long-term depression at times, sometimes verbal and physical abuse during times of high conflict in my home, and now adultery and I'm afraid a distinct probability of divorce if we can't overcome the mess we have made of our marriage.<P>I guess I wonder if I have brought all of this negative baggage with me from my home of origin as a manifestation of generational sin and from the influence of evil spirits whose roots are in my first home.<P>Rockaway

Dear Rockaway,<BR>(I am sending first so that I won't lose this as I have sometimes. WIll come back now to edit immediately and add...)<BR>Schizzo once gave me a good link at Gospel.com, where there are good Christian sites, not the ones that are subtlely anti.<P>I have been trying to contact my pastor but he is not available. I will try to get him again and will reply with more information. Meanwhile, I will write through some teachings I heard and through the experiences of others who have issues in these areas.<P>1. Exodus 20:5,6<BR>You shall not bow down to them or worship them: for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.<P>2. Numbers 14:18<BR>The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.<P>3. Psalm 109:14, 15<BR>May the iniquity of the father be remembered before the LORD; may sin of his mother never be blotted out. May their sins always remain before the LORD, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.<P>4. Jeremiah 2:9<BR>Therefore I bring charges against you again, declares the LORD. And I will bring charges against your children's children.<P>5. Jeremiah 2:13<BR>My people have committed two sins; They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.<P>6. Proverbs 28:13<BR>He who conceals his sins does not prosper but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.<P>7. Leviticus 26:40-42<BR>But if they confess their sins and the sins of their fathers - their treachery against me and their hostility toward me, which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies - then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin,I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.<P>8. 1 John 1:9<BR>If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.<P>9. Isaiah 54:17<BR>No weapon forged against you will previal, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me.<P><BR>Rockaway,<BR>It is my WS's adultery that caused me to wake up from the lull of a peaceful and loving marriage where prayers together are often. However, much as I asked about why I married a man with such a background, I shrugged it off. In fact, my first H was an abused orphan, the product of a prostitute and a client. That was what a church pastor who took him under his wing told me but my first H refused to tell me the past or face the truth himself. He was an abusive and wayward H. After our divorce, a friend told me that he often related tales of visiting the sleazy parts of any country he goes to and enjoyed peep shows, etc.. I remembered that he had a duo personality; saintly around people but he couldn't seem to help the deviant part of him. <P>This second WS was brought up by the mistress of his father (something I didn't know until recently when the mistress passed away).<P>With the recent case of adultery, I was supported by many church members, family and friends, as well as Christian and professional counsellors to come to an acceptance of the situation ,as well as understanding of all factors that could have given rise to the adultery. These included both Christian and secular factors.<P>I am relating my story to help give the verses some relevance to our present situations, so please bear with me.<P>All are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. As you would know, it is through repentance before God and accepting Jesus Christ as our personal saviour that we become cleansed of past sins. However, life is full of temptations and often the devil would try its utmost to destroy our wish (should really be determination but for many of us, we just cruise more often than not, sleeping when we should be alert) to walk in God's light. So, even if we are church going and belonging Christians, we face the temptations all men and women do. <P>The only way to live a successful Christian life free of turmoil and sin is to read God's word because it is only through knowledge of what God wants that we know what and how to walk in His light. We pray daily for his guidance, etc. I had and still have a problem with reading the word and books because it is a struggle for me now. I have been angry with God that He allowed this adultery to happen at all, as well as the first divorce because of adultery. I am slowly trying to understand that I made the wrong choices in marrying the wrong men. I didn't seek God in both these marriages; they being Christians were good enough, godly men were 'boring' to me then.<P>Rockaway,<BR>As the first four verses bear out God's anger at evil men and their descendants, there therefore exist both curses and blessings on the generations thereafter. God's curses are short (3 to 4 generations but this can be infinite if no one turns to God and break the curse). His blessings are thousands - a testament to this is that 80% of the Who's WHo in the world have missionary parents or missionary forefathers. <P>AS you can see from verses 5-9, once you confess the sins, including the specific and non specific sins of the previous generations and before, God will forgive and make you whole again. Continual living in God's light will help ensure that you and the descendants break the generational curses. <P>I believe that, as in my cases, you didn't think and pray about breaking such curses and strongholds in the family. I didn't see the significance until recently. Much as I tried to find a factor lacking in me that caused my WS to have an affair, my WS simply said that he was pissed drunk and couldn't help himself. He was shocked at how easy it was for him to fall and how the OP targeted him. Again, a pastor preached that 'soulish ties' can be transferred as a result of adultery or fornication, ie, if one were to sleep with a prostitute or other, spirits of lust, low self esteem, etc, can be transferred. Furthermore, one is not even sure who else that person slept with. <P>WS told me that the OP had married men before and it seemed that only married men give her attention. It is also said that some people do have certain spirits of lust in them and that attracts men or women who are not grounded in the faith. That is why affairs happen all the time, sadly.<P>Again, one has to live by God's word and fully confess and repent of such activities. In some cases, the help of a trained pastor may help. Such cases are : aborted childhood (as in your case) because REJECTION is at the root of your being fostered out. There are issues that you may have suppressed when you couldn't understand how you could not have been brought up by your own parents and how they weren't responsible and had to give you up. ALthough their lifestyles could be a good reason for you to feel happier in this wonderful family, you could still be feeling some unresolved pain and hurt. In fact, you are bound to because it must be a very painful process to have to come to some terms that your bio parents did not have the capacity to look after you. Here, forgiveness is key as well ("Forgive and forget - healing the hurts you do not deserve" by Lewis B. Smedes). <P>At a healing ministry, a preacher whom Jesus uses to heal both physical and emotional problems healed my mother of her leg problem and I of my emotional trauma. He also spoke about how my marriage has been killed, etc.. The purpose of healing is to BECOME WHOLE. WHoleness is necessary for us to lead a peaceful, joyful and loving life.<P>FORGIVING others, asking for forgiveness from God and repenting and banishing all strongholds in your life will help you lead a whole and complete life with God as the center. <P>Often, an annionted pastor can recognise if a chracteristic or situation is a generational curse. The preacher (annionted healer of God) was on a mission trip to help other pastors plant churches. He met one young pastor who told him that he wasn't ready yet to become a pastor but that it seemed a family thing that all his forefathers had to take over the pastorship at a young age when their father passed away. The men all died from a heart attack at the same age! THis is evidence of a generation curse. The preacher helped pray for the pastor to break that. <P>Some pastors believe that you can break the generational curses by praying once about it and confessing that and asking to be delivered. Others are of the view that it is not necessary to pray but simply to repent and lead a life in God's will. I rather pray about that than leave it alone given my histories and non belief in this area.<BR>PLEASE SEE REPLY CONTINUED BELOW <P>Spiritual warfare exists and as do curses and blessings ( good author: Derek Prince). <P>[This message has been edited by weep (edited November 09, 2000).]<P>[This message has been edited by weep (edited November 09, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited November 10, 2000).]

Weep,<P>Keep writing, I'm still reading! I just got home from work and I need to get to bed. Will try to read and respond in the morning.<P>We hear about spiritual warfare in church, but in such a general, surface way that I never really understood exactly what it meant, other than the struggle between doing right vs doing wrong. This is opening my eyes! I can relate personally to what you and Schizzo are saying.<P>Rockaway

Dear Rockaway,<P>Sorry, I had to give my lovely baby the attention. Actually, my timeclock is all askew after the WS's A.<P>Yes, I managed to speak to my pastor who gave me some specifics about what you can do. But I will continue with some verses first.<P>10. 1 Kings 21:25, 29<BR>(There was never a man like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, urged on by Jezebel his wife...."Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son."<P>The verse above shows that repentance before God is necessary to live in peace and be accepted by God. But still his sins continued to visit later generations.<P>The way to be free of the generational curses is to '...confess and RENOUNCE them' Proverbs 28:13 , point (6) in the post above, and point (7) "But if they confess their sins and THE SINS OF THEIR FATHERS..." Leviticus 26:40-42.<P>I checked out some sites and this is the site that has the prayers. I double-checked with my pastor the wordings in the prayer. The site is <A HREF="http://www.withoneaccord.org/store/generational.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.withoneaccord.org/store/generational.html</A> <P>There are other prayers on this site as well. When it comes to renounciation, my pastor advices that it is better to have a pastor with you. This pastor has to believe and understand the scriptural teachings of spiritual warfare and how to renounce such. The reason being that there could be manifestations of the spirits and if one is alone, you will not be able to deal with that.<P>Once the prayers of renounciation is done, you will be able to be whole again. And to surrender your will to God and live in HIs WIll instead. This doesn't mean that you will not be tempted, as even the devil tempts pastors and make a gigantic stumbling block of them. You need to be prayful and walk in GOd's way.<P>Another issue that is critical is that you can Renounce the spirit of Rejection when you were given up for adoption by your bio parents. Then recognise that you have been accepted and adopted by Christ as a child of God, so there is no more rejection. So it is prayer of renouncement of rejection and acceptance.<P>As for spirits of lust and lack of self-control, depression, etc.., it can be transferred down the generational line or through soul ties (when one sleeps with another).<P>To sum up:<P>1. recognise that you need to confess the sins of your fathers and yourself, and renounce them. Pray with a pastor.<P>2. Pray daily.<P>3. Read God's word and be filled with the knowledge of what God intends us to do.<P>4. Walk in God's ways.<P>5. FLEE from all temptations.<P>6. Be filled with the fruits of the spirit. Be discerning.<P>7. Let God's will be done in your life.<P>8. Read the books by Christian authors as Derek Prince, Lewis B. Smedes, Max Lucado, Stormie Omartian, etc..<P>9. Be accountable to some Christian elder/s (same gender) so that you build each other up.<P>10. Learn to hear God's voice and recognise the voice of the shephard.<P><BR>God bless you<BR>take care<BR>weep<P>

Weep,<P>Thanks so much for taking the time to lay these concepts out for me. I will search for a pastor who takes spiritual warfare/bondage literally. Pray that I find one.<P>Some days I feel like I/we are making progress, other days I just despair and feel like there is no hope and want out of the marriage. My wife feels the same way. We are both hanging on by our fingernails. She is the one, however, who gave me some background information on spiritual bondage and I basically ignored it until I saw your post to mscum.<P>You have given me some practical handles on how I can address this problem.<P>Blessings!<P>Rockaway

Dear Rockaway,<P>I am glad that your wife is also trying to salvage your marriage in the best possible way. I am not sure if there other Christians know about your situation, if they do, then they can help pray and recommend pastors to you. My friends and family prayed and fasted for us. We prayed individually and together as well. God then sent miracles upon miracles (some very tangible and urgent ones which I can't reveal here in case the witch is lurking).<P>The saddest episode of WS's A was that my father was screamed at and told all sorts of stuff and had the phone slammed on him, that got him chest pains and he was hospitalised and died from complications soon after. That was how he knew about the A. But my father accepted Christ as his personal saviour after a lifetime of idolatry. So, I am comforted that he is in heaven now.<P>I seek the help of my pastor for referrals to counsellors, and bible study groups, etc.. You can do that as well as buy the books of well known authors and do research from there so that you get counselled by a really annointed man of God and not some charlatan. You can also attend the healing ministries and other seminars that are recommeded by your church.<P>I will pray that you and your wife find a very personal relationship with Christ and that your marriage is centred in God. I will pray that you know God's voice and that your marriage becomes so very fulfilling and joyful and faithful because you are filled with the blessings of the Lord, and that you seek and find the healing touch to make both of you whole again.<P>God bless you <BR>weep

Dear Rockaway,<BR> <A HREF="http://www.family.org" TARGET=_blank>www.family.org</A> <P>While answering a thread in JUst FOund Out by Confused/hurt, I saw Stunned1957's post and this web address. It is about pastors, and maybe you can get some leads?<P>Cheerio<BR>Weep

Dear Weep,<P>I've been offline all weekend. Just got my internet service reconfigured after I let a couple of visiting nieces and nephews use the computer. They decided to rearrange my system settings and tried to use a different internet service provider. And I just thought they were playing innocuous games like solitaire <P>Thanks for the prayer support and encouragement. After my first affair we went to our pastor who was compassionate, but he felt that we needed to go before the church governing board for the purpose of restoration. It was handled well, embarrassing of course, but after that, many people at church did not treat us the same in spite of the fact that everything was "confidential". I'm sure board members told their wives, who in turn told other church friends.... So, when we moved to get me away from OW #1 (because I just couldn't let it die), we are very reluctant to go to our new pastor with affair #2 saga. How dense can I be? We have formed a friendship here with another Christian couple who have been through this scenario and they have been very supportive with real good practical advice and consistent caring support. That helps so much. <BR>I am beginning to accept the idea that I truly am in a relationship/sexual bondage pattern that has gotten very slowly but continually worse and worse since childhood.<BR>I plan to look up the links you suggested and find some of the authors.<BR>Thanks again!<P>Rockaway

Weep,<P><BR>I read this posting after you refered me here from the Recovery section. Interesting topic. Just thought I would share some of my thoughts on this topic. For me alcholism, low self esteem, lust, were things that were passed on to me by my parents. I am also pretty sure that they had them passed on to them by there parents. Part of my incentive for dealing with these things in me is that I do not want to pass them on to my children. What helped me to indentify these things was go back and write my autobiography as part of my work on my Forth Step in AA. The forth step requires that you do a moral inventory of your life and then the fifth steps deals with sharing the findings with God and another person. The six step deals with asking God to take the "defects" away. I think I also need to work at keeping them away. I also think it is important to identify the good things my parents passed on to me and the good qualities I have. Working with a good councilor can also help to bring these things out in the open. I also think that I need to learn from the bad qualities I have and my parents have. Without them being present in me or in others, I probably would not have learned from them and been able to grow. <P>Anyway, just some thoughts and thanks for the reference.<P>Tim<BR>

Dear Tim,<P>Thanks for sharing your insights. You have been through so much and I can feel you growing gradually with renewed hope with no trace of bitterness and envy, maybe just a little de-energised and cautious (?). <P>It is very true that we have to reach within and see that we are loveable and LOVE ourselves than can we love others. <P>Maintaining requires strength and I would say even pastors have to call on the strength of God all the time to help them in their daily life as well as in fleeing from temptations of this world.<P>I am also tempted to be angry, bitter, unforgiving, and I cannot do the 'spring cleaning of my soul' without God's help and to keep these tormentors away requires me to seek God's strength daily.<P>God bless you.<BR>weep

Dear Rockaway,<P>Can you do bible study with the couple? It will help with the roller-coasters and finger-hanging some of the time.<P>As for the OW still at same place of work, please pray for some breakthrough so that you don't even think about her. You can learn to fill your mind with all things joyful and Godly. Memorising verses help. Studies have shown that prisoners of war and others were kept sane when they recall the verses they have memorised during bible classes.<P>1. Search me, O god,and know my heart; try me. and know my anxieties; and see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.<BR>PSALM 139:23,24 (repentance)<P>2. The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised' so shall I be saved from my enemies.<BR>PSALM 18:2,3 (deliverance)<P>3. Not everyone who sayd to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.<BR>MATTHEW 7:21 (Obedience)<P>4. One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.<BR>PROVERBS 28:9 (Obedience)<P>5. There is hope in your future.<BR>Jeremiah 31:17 (future)<P>6. The body is not for sexual immorality but for the LORD, and the LORD for your body.<BR>1 Corithians 6:13 (sexuality)<P>7. Drink water from your own cistern, and running water from your own well. Should your fountains be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be only your own, and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of your youth. As a loving deer and a graceful doe, let her breasts satisfy you at all time; and always be enraptured with her love.<BR>PROVERBS 5:15-19 (sexuality)<P>8. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkeness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.<BR>ROMANS 13:13,14 (sexuality)<P>9. With the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.<BR>ROMANS 7:25 (mind)<P>10. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?<BR>PSALM 27:1 (Fears)<P>11. The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them.<BR>PSALM 34:7 (fear)<P>12. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.<BR>PROVERBS 1:7 (choices)<P>13. Cast your burden on the LORD, and He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.<BR>PSLAM 55:22 (trials)<P>My bible study sponser has recommended that we can keep these verses in our wallets/purses or dressing table mirrors, etc., to look at daily. Choose a few favourites to memorise and recall when faced with problems or even just for thanksgiving.<P>The above are a few I took off Stormie Omartian's book on the POwer of a praying wife. I am sure you have your own personal favourites but I just wanted to classify them as Stormie did because it becomes more meaningful.<P>God bless you<BR>weep

Weep,<P>Thanks for the additional encouragement, prayers and verses. I have come across a prayer concept called "praying the word" through Joyce Meyers - personalizing Bible verses by inserting my name or someone else's name in the verse. Makes it more meaningful that way.<BR>I work evenings and nights, just opposite a normal work schedule, and of course everyone has a hectic schedule, so right now a regular Bible study isn't practical; however, we do meet with the other couple socially several times a month. They take their Christianity seriously and have been a big help spiritually.<BR>The OW is a constant source of concern. I thought once the affair ended, we could work together and remain cordial. That is naive thinking. She briefly got involved in another relationship, but apparently that didn't work out, so she has started getting "friendly" again. I don't want to go there again. It is too painful. Rationally, I know this. Emotionally, if I am not vigilant I will be silly putty for she is sweet, alluring, and pure poison for me. Quicksand is less deadly than this, believe me.<BR>Thanks again, Weep.<P>Rockaway