<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:<BR><B><BR>New year is just around the corner, we should start our new life together as a happy family (father, mother, and kids, not husband, not wife, and kids) and forget about the past.”<P>Well, what do you think of it? I’m sorry it is long. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Forgive me for being blunt, but I think it's a load of crap! You can be a father to your children even if you don't live with them, and the same goes for her being their mother. Living together under the same roof in that kind of hell will NOT be good for anyone.<P>Kids are surprisingly resilient, and while I'm not saying they don't thrive in a two-parent household, how can they ever look at your "family" and think about you as mom & dad without thinking about you being husband & wife?<P>And what about other people? Your wife is talking about 8 to 10 YEARS.... are neither one of you planning on having another relationship?<P>My opinion is you either work it out or you don't.... but you don't put yourselves in that kind of hateful situation just to have both parents under the same roof.<P>Sorry for the negative reply, but I'm working on hour 40 of no contact with OM & I'm not feeling too charitable. <P>I'm very sorry for the pain you and your wife are going through. You need to do what's best for EVERYONE, not just the kids.<P>lost_in_love

I hate to say this, but it looks like she's setting up a very bad situation. She's afraid to face the consequences that a divorce might bring, so she's trying to get some twisted sort of "marraige that isn't a marriage" out of you. Don't do it! <P>If you do, she'll have carte blanche to have as many affairs as she wants! She wants the benefits of marriage (stability, a father for the kids), without any of the responsiblities (remaining faithful to her vows, etc). In effect, she's saying to you "will you please lie down and be a doormat for the next ten years? I know you love me, but I want to be able to love other men too."<P>That is a bunch of crap! I'm sorry, but to me, marriage is an all-or-nothing proposition. Either you are husband and wife, or you are not. Furthermore, that living arrangement will cause you nothing but pain...doesn't she see that? She's denying you her love yet asking you to continue living with her. That is a cruel thing to endure.<P>Tell her that is unacceptable. She's in some seriously deep fog, and that letter shows it.

<BR>Yep, she's in the fog. On the other hand, she's sure dropped some big-time clues about what she considers lovebusters and what emotional needs she has. I see direct references to Family Committment, Affection, Converstation, and fairly complete descriptions about how she wants those needs met.<P>If you can keep up with Plan A, do it. If she's got an affair ongoing, get ready for Plan B eventually, but not until you've given Plan A it's best chance to work.<P>I looked quickly to see if I could get more background on your situation, but I wasn't able to spend the time to read everything. If I'm totally off the mark, then I apologize.<P><BR>

OOOO,<P>The letter was cruel. It was weakly disguised as somewhat of an admission of partial fault for the problems. While she is busy telling you how she is no good for you as a wife, how she made so many mistakes, how she feels so bad - she is just as busy telling you how you cant cut it as a father and her husband. She tries to pepper her insults and criticism with empty compliments that just dont jive with the theme of the letter. <P>I see this whole letter as a way to let herself off the hook and to lay as much of the blame on you as possible. She know that you are in pain and working hard to restore the marriage. She wants to look charitable by telling you that you guys can live together as a family blah blah blah...<BR>She doesn't mean it. I don't think she even knows what the He!! she's talking about. <P>Have you considered Plan B at this point? Sounds like she wants a husband and family with no strings attached?

OOOO,<P>Let me guess, she is still in withdrawal. Right?? <P>My inclination is to agree with LiL and cjack, but a part of me says to stop and think abit. If I start thinking you may be in trouble. <P>First, she is still in withdrawal right? Second, she is probably right there are things about you she doesn't like. She states that you haven't been father of the year. Yet, if I recall your posts you have been a good father and you are learning.<P>How old are your children? I am guessing they are preteen. If so your role as a father won't have really started. It has been my experience that children need two parents for the best opportunity to succeed but having two parents guarentees nothing. <P>Also it has been may experience, the need for two parents comes not because the parents role is the same or each are need simultaneously. Mothers role is clearly dominate when they are young. By the time they hit teenage years, I believe the fathers role dominates.<P>That is not to say the other parent isn't important but children need different things at different times in their development.<P>So as for needing to stay in a marriage, that is "loveless" for the children I am not so sure. What are you going to teach them about marriage, about love, about life. Not necessarily a good thing.<P>I think your W laid out what she would like from you in addition to the obvious financial support (part of the reason for this strange proposal I suspect), she wants romance, she wants love. My bet is that you are willing to give her both, but she won't admit it. <P>Heck, if you turn into Don Juan she is proven even more wrong for having the affair. It was at her feet all of the time. In reality this may not have been true. You have learned alot and have changed, right? <P>As for your parenting, your time for being a good parent has now come. She admits she expects you to view things as she does, but is realizing that is wrong. You are a better father than she thought, and you are willing to do better.<P>Finally, she is of the opinion that you two cannot compromise. Now I wish I could remember the post here, just this last week, when the H finally realized why his W thought he was controlling. If I can find it later I will post it to you. However, his realization was the following and I suspect you problem may be the same.<P>He noticed that his W's view of compromising was to completely surrender and adopt the H's view. He didn't really want that but that is what she did. So she came to view him as controlling, even if all he wanted was to reach a compromise, because she wouldn't compromise. She just gave in. For her compromise met giving in and that meant to her he was controlling. <P>It seems to me that your W may be viewing this the same way. She really doesn't know how to compromise.<P>OOOO, after the lengthy ramble on my part let me tell you what I feel and what I would do. Yeah, I am good at telling other people what to do. You would be wise to remember your Milage May Vary. <P>Seriously, I think you like everyone responding here don't want to be in a loveless marriage for 8-10 years. It is bad for you, it is bad for your W, and I suspect it may not so great for your children. On the other hand, her offer suggests that she values the marriage, she knows she has royally messed up, and that right now she is suffering from guilt and withdrawal.<P>So I don't know that the marriage would remain loveless, if you continue your Plan A and use the guidelines for a good marriage as represented by the POJA and the 4 rules for a good marriage. I think there is hope.<P>I think you need to further evaluate and further clarify with her what she means in the letter. <P>Does the letter mean no sex? Does the letter mean no kissing? NO hugging? No gifts for Xmas, holidays, birthdays? Does it mean separate bedrooms? No hand holding? Does it mean no dinners out? No vacations together? Does it mean no church or other social functions together? Does it mean being able to date and sleep with someone else?<P>If so the forget it.<P>Now here is where I get a little off the wall. <P>I would offer to her the possibility that the just friends, pretend marriage is a possibility if you can pretend as well. <P>Could you pretend to be husband and W and have sex?<P>Could you pretend to be in love with her in a romantic way and buy her flowers? gifts?<P>Could she pretend to be your W and hold your hand and not turn away when you kiss her, pretending to be her H?<P>Would she let you pretend to be her loving H and take her out to dinner every now and then?<P>Would she let you hug her in front of the children and listen when you told her you loved her?<P>Could she be your best friend and listen to your deepest thoughts and pain?<P>Could she be your best friend and talk to you about her deepest thoughts and pain?<P>It seems to me if she will pretend along those lines and you can "pretend" along those lines, that healing of your marriage is possible. Love is a conditional thing, and if she will allow you to show her that you have learned a thing or two even in "pretending" I suspect that progress can be made.<P>There is so much else to say, but I am rambling along so I will stop for now. I hope that something I have said will be of help.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

OOOO,<P>Please forgive me if any of this sounds harsh.<P>Your wife's letter makes absolutely no sense. She contradicts herself repeatedly. She takes full responsibility for the A, but you provoked her, but she made the decision, but your shortcomings as a husband and father made her do it. She expects too much, but you don't live up to any of her expectations. Don't do the things I've always wanted, but because you didn't do them before I had an affair.<P>Personally, I think you should save the letter and show it to your counselor, and if you don't have one, get ye to one ASAP. To me her letter sounds like she feels hopeless. She sounds extremely depressed, this is way beyond fog, and she needs help before it gets worse and she becomes suicidal.<P>Please don't consider trying to go along with her plan. You certainly won't be doing your children any favors. Your marriage is the only one they will ever see up close before they themselves are married, and they will more likely than not emulate it. Someday they'll be coming to you wanting to know why their marriages and relationships are so crappy, and their spouses probably will too. And who do you think your W will blame? YOU!!<P>Men and women are different. Duh. That's why a two parent family is the best scenario for children. We do things differently and kids need both sides of the coin. No you don't sit down and have long thought filled conversations with the kids. And she probably doesn't get down on the floor and wrestle and rough house and play tickle monster with them. You probably don't bake a lot of cupcakes for class parties, and she probably doesn't put together bikes and all the other Christmas toys that say "some assembly required". It all kind of balnaces out. My H doesn't do a lot of things with the kids the way I do them, he's not me. And if he was a woman he still probably wouldn't do them the same because he still wouldn't be me. <P>Please try and get your wife some help, she just doesn't sound like she's in a real good place right now.

My husband, too, proposed this type of situation: I come back to Japan, and we live together under the same roof (I proposed this about 2 months ago in a last ditch attempt to save our marriage and he told me to get lost.)<P>I loved my home in Japan. I loved my husband. I would really like to keep my son't family intact, but now I see that this in not a wise idea. My husband does not love me. He loves the kid and aknowleges that I am a good parent. Also, since he is in the military, he cannot have the kid overseas by himself. He would have to let the house go without us there, and move into the barracks. My being there would serve a purpose. I would be a necessity.<P>It is not a wise idea. Oh, sure, they say "Stay together for the kids." But without love? When one spouse insists fully that they are not in love and never will be, and does everything that they can to prevent love from growing, then there is no point in staying together. Kids want to live in a happy home, ideally with two parents who gave them life, but if not, two people who love each other. Doesn't that make sense?<P>Tell me if I am wrong.

There has been a lot of research that showed that kids want their parents to be together. Period. Unless there is open warfare between the parents, the state of the relationship between the parents is not critically important to the children. It is more important to them that they grow up with both parents.<P>That letter sounds like the writing of someone who is severely depressed. It would be cruel for you to abandon her now, especially since she has asked you to stay. It sounds like she feels like her life is spinning out of her control. It sounds to me like she needs you more than ever right now. In her current mental state she is not capable of reciprocating your love. She sounds like she is consumed with guilt and self-hate, and she does not sound completely rational. I think if you left right now, there is a good chance she would become suicidal. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited November 11, 2000).]

Dear OOOO,<P>I proposed about the same thing after I discovered my WS's A. I thought about my infant and realised that that was the best way to salvage my dignity as well as keeping the marriage intact for my baby. It is still possible that I will leave my H when my baby becomes an adult. I really can't say for sure. Maybe it won't happen because God will slowly fill my empty heart again.<P>I think the key issue is found in "I need to heal". <P>I think this is the clearest letter that she has written to date, and reflects that she has done a lot of soul searching to arrive at some acceptance of the blame. I would think that previous letters had her thinking more of the reasons to stay than leave. I would think that this sounds like a person who is hard to accept blame and need to feel validated as an almost 'wonderful and perfect person'. Another giveaway to this is her need for romance and her final acknowledgement of 'realistic expectations'.<P>I would really discuss with her (hopefully in the presence of a marriage counsellor) the follwoing issues:<BR>1. a rough idea of the timeframe needed for healing : 3 months to 1 year?<BR>2. what is healing to her and how does she think she can be healed and how you can help her heal<BR>3. how can she help you heal<BR>4. the boundaries of being a father vs husband, and how she can view that as realistic<BR>5. what about rededication of vows as a symbol of a new marriage<BR>6. what is her 'ideal marriage and husband'<BR>7. what is her 'ideal role of a wife'<BR>8. how would such a situation affect the children because children are perceptive<BR>9. what if you think that this sort of arrangement cannot work for you<BR>10. how we both can communicate better because many couples face that sort of communication problems simply because both are different entities.<P>There are some books on famous pastors who have sinned and fallen all the way. Perhaps you can buy her those books to let her know that she is not alone.<P>I seem to feel that she has a very strong personality, and the idea of divorce is scaring her, and she is forcing herself to see the reality life has brought her. She doesn't want to 'owe you'? <P>It would take a fine balance but don't let her turn the tables on you.<P>My prayers are with you<P>God bless you<BR>take care<BR>weep

Dear OffOnOn Off,<P> How long did it take to regain the use of your hands after typing this?<P> I'm leavig town, so I have to hurry. Are all the female WSs using a form letter, because this sounds like the one I got 8 months ago?<BR> My wifes' letter was essentially an emotional enema. Don't read too much into it. <P> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OffOnOnOff her letter seems odd at the least. I think she wants to be married, but feels like she is unworthy of being your wife. This mindset could be what makes her sound crazy. If you could reach a compromise on the living together so you would get a little more out of it maybe that would work. Like you both remain faithful to the other, You are to eat meals together, go to social funtions together, share decisions etc. If you can get at least some things you want and can keep her in the house she might see you as loving her and not you as Mr. perfect and her as Ms. No Good. I think having her move out could be seen as a LB. If she is there with you and you can agree on some guidelines you may win her over as time goes by..<BR>Good luck, be patient, be good to yourself, the kids, and her.<P>

OOOO,<P>I truly don't know what to tell you regarding the Plan B with her still being in the house. Have you considered a phone session with one of the Harley's. I bet that they have dealt with situations such as yours. I would never suggest you leaving the house since it appears that you have done a great deal of the child rearing as of late. Your situaiton seems a little "damned if you do and damned if you don't". I know how difficult this must be and how terribly alone you must feel. For that I am so sorry. I hope that your wife will soon start to feel better about herself and that you will see the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. <P>Again, I would check into talking to one of the Harley's even if it is only short term. I am certain that they would have answers that you nor I would have even thought of. <P>take care,<P>cleo

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

I for one would love to get a letter like this. It would mean that my wife has broken all contact with OM, and the real work can begin.<BR>It seems to me that your wife is obviously in withdrawal from her affair. From my reading the withdrawal takes atleast 3 months. Until the withdrawal is over you can't expect her to seriously work on repairing your marriage. Let her have some time to heal. Deal with her gently and continue to PLAN A. Concentrate on the children since that is the one thing that she is willing to let you do. <BR>Avoid the LB's at all costs gently try to teach her to compromise on small things. One of my early breakthroughs was learning that my wife took what I considered a suggestion of a different way of doing things as a rejection of her idea. I explained that I was just trying to be involved and if she didn't like my suggestion just tell me so and why. That was our 1st compromise in 22 years of marriage and they have gotten easier. Continue to demonstrate through your actions that you are trying to change your behavior in areas that she thinks are important (the clues are in the letter) and in time she will come around. You are a lot further along than I am and I envy you.

[One of my early breakthroughs was learning that my wife took what I considered a suggestion of a different way of doing things as a rejection of her idea.] <BR>This is so true. I found that the if I ask her if we can work out a solution, tell her I need her ideas to solve the problem she tends to give them. Your wife is going to need to feel she is still valued.<BR>I have to go get ready for work but will post tonight something I faxed my wife that made her feel better. be patient and understanding now more than ever. She is coming around. <BR>

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>