Dear MB Friends,<P>I am teetering on the verge of divorce (and insanity) and I'm so confused. Just had another tumultuos weekend. I honestly don't know which way to go. I need some objective insight. <P>H left Friday afternoon for work and did not return home until sometime early today. No note, no call, he just disappeared. Of course, he spent the night with OW.<P>I was furious, and suggested this morning that we go our separate ways. We began talking about a property settlement. He had tears in his eyes and kept reaching over to touch me. He told me he had tried calling me yesterday morning so that I wouldn't be "worried".<P>The topic of a settlement gradually shifted to our relationship. He told me his 'therapist' is pushing him in the direction of a divorce. She thinks our situation is hopeless. He told me she tried to get him to role play (with her being me) and tell her he wants a divorce. He said he couldn't say the word, that he broke down and sobbed, then said, "She's my best friend". Then he told her that he was driving down on Friday to see OW. She said, "Are you doing that so that your wife will ask for a divorce because you can't verbalize it?" He said, "Yes, our situation isn't improving". <P>I asked him again for the millionth time what are the issues. He said, "It's like we are two trees growing side by side, but there is an essential nutrient missing." I asked him what it was. He can't tell me!! ARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!<P>He vaguely mentioned something about both of us being nonconfrontational, that we never have fights, and then "make up". I said, "Yes, when I try to bring up a topic of contention, you withdraw." Or, he will agree to something, but never do it. He's basically passive-aggressive. Plus, he told me early on in our marriage that his first wife would verbally assault him, & when he couldn't take it any longer, he divorced her. <P>I asked him if he felt that having me out of his life would solve all his problems. He said, "No, I will no doubt create some more for myself." He said he can't bring himself to even think about a divorce because he views it as a failure and because he still has feelings for me. But, he also said he feels our relationship will never improve & when he thinks of staying together, he thinks of suicide!!!!!!<P>I am not an emotionally outward person, have never been one. It's just my personality- quiet and calm. I do give hugs and tell him that I love him. <P>But I was so frustrated, that I yelled at the top of my lungs, "Things are never going to get better as long as you're carrying on a $%*$%&$*& affair!!!" He didn't respond, just continued making himself a lunch. He gave me a hug, headed out the door for work, and said, "See ya tonight".<P>Pleeeeaaaasssse, give me your thoughts. Things just seem to be going from bad to worse. Neither of us wants a divorce. But, we seem so deadlocked, and I certainly don't want to be the cause of him killing himself. Help me!!!<P>

<B>Sidney - </B>I just posted a response to one of your replies to my thread. Now I feel like an idiot.<P>Let me say this first: <B>Your H needs a new therapist.</B> Is there any way to approach this issue with him?<P>Just reading this post puts my stomach in knots. I'm feeling intensely frustrated and I'm not even involved here. But, in many ways, some of the things you are going thru parallel my situation. Each time you bring up divorce, it touches him and he reaches out(in his own way) to you.<P>I'm telling you, there is more to this(for him) than just not wanting to fail(in the marriage). He doesn't want out, he just doesn't know how to make things better. He seems to be driving confrontation. I don't think he really wants you to decide for him.<P>My dear Sidney, I'm sorry, but I really don't know what to tell you. His behavior is going to drive you crazy. He really does need a different therapist. This one sounds like the one my W has. At least she(T) got better after I confronted her. Took some time, but she stopped believing W implicitly.<P>That last scene you described where you yelled about the affair and he didn't respond, just gave you a hug and said "See ya tonight"??? Can you spell b-i-z-a-r-r-e??? He really <I>is</I> in another world. This <B>is</B> the definition of alien abduction.<P>Don't know what else to say, just I would be hitting the Scotch bottle right about now.<P>Hugs and love,<P>--DeWayne--

<B>Sidney -</B> Another thought...If your H would like someone to talk to about anything at all, I am at his(your) service. Just let me know...<P>--DeWayne--

Oh, DeWayne, through my tears, as I read your last sentence, I started to laugh. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! For injecting some much needed levity! And, if I had any liquor in the house, I would certainly take you up on that suggestion!!!<P>You are absoutely right. H needs to see a different therapist. Thank you so much for confirming my thoughts, also.<P>Yes, yes, you're right-- every time I bring up the D word, he clings tighter to me. But... could it be that the "therapist" is playing the devil's advocate??? Pushing him in the direction of the divorce, knowing that he doesn't want one (& she knows I don't either) and it will drive a confrontation?? See, this is why I never did well on essay questions. I would always read much more into them, than the obvious.<P>Then, I think that since he's bringing up the suicide word, she must feel a professional responsibility to push him into resolving the conflict, which on the surface appears to be the marriage.<P>But, alas, I really do agree with your initial assessment because when we did "couples" counseling with her, I was not impressed. She seemed to be at a loss many times as to what direction to head. Plus, she never gave us any concrete "homework" to do between visits.<P>Thanks so much for your email address. Too bad scotch can't be transmitted over phone lines (yet!). I sure could use some right now!!!

<B>Sidney -</B> I would hope that the therapist <I>wouldn't</I> be playing the devil's advocate like that without letting you know. The therapist would have to know that she is playing with fire here. Does she know about the suicidal thoughts?? I hope not, because you don't push someone in that frame of mind...<P>And, again, if she was worth her salt, she could see that the marriage isn't the problem. I can see that and I'm not a trained professional...<P>Just some thoughts...<P>--DeWayne--

Sidney, just a thought, as a fellow spouse married to a PA man who was married before to a confrontational person who he divorced. I am not confrontational, but I am emotional...it's just I think things don't bug me so much. <P>This OW is married/separated with 2 kids...assistant at work...very controlling, much like his first wife. (He was with me about 3x as long as first wife)<P>Anyway, the problem is within them..as I know you know... How about just detaching as lovingly as you can. Distant plan A.<P>It is easier for me because my H does not live here, but we have 3 small kids that he sees frequently. Oh I forgot to mention OW is pregnant with H's baby and flaunting it.<P>I have been acting in the third person. Just letting him deal with it all...I made a decision way back in Feb...that I would stand out of the way and let it play out without saying a word, without giving any fuel, without taking any of his responsibility for his actions (i.e. he will have to file and tell the kids)...<P>It has helped me keep my sanity.... I am moving forward with myself...not on...<P>I guess I see this as a huge mid life crisis for my emotionally immature h. I pray daily that he grows on this journey...but I just know I have no control over him.<P>I have taken the stance that for every action there is a reaction, and although I cannot control his or OW's actions I can control mine. Whatever happens in the end I think I will feel good about the way I have acted. I have acted lovingly, but not been a doormat. I feel like I still have my self respect. ANyway, I don't know if my 2 cents even helps...I just read you post and felt for you because I can relate to the PA behavior and the inability to get them to communicate anything. Tha't because they do not know themselves...what makes them happy or what is missing inside of them.<P>The only thing that can set them free is the truth.

Yes, she's aware of his talk of suicide. He mentioned it casually (brought up the fact that one of our neighbors shot himself to death in his garage) at our last couples session. It was after that that she suggested we discontinue the couples counseling and just meet with him. I had no idea until today that she was encouraging him to divorce me. I don't think that she's aware that after his first divorce, he did make an attempt on his life. I am not a therapist, but I believe many of his problems stem from his terrible relationship with his mother. His therapist IS aware of that fact. I do believe he needs to see someone else. But, it seems to be such a crapshoot. They can do more harm than good. It's very, very scary!!!!!

Oh my gosh, TT, your situation sounds so much like mine, it's eerie! H was married to wife #1 ten years and me 22 years. For twenty years, he reinforced & frequently mentioned his need to maintain a peaceful, tranquil relationship. He told me he searched and searched for someone with my personality and many, many times told me how devastating it was for him to be verbally assaulted by wife #1. Then, all of a sudden, whammo- I'm not emotional and passionate enough!!<P>And, exactly as you described, his OW is very controlling, or "has a presence" as he describes it! And, she too, has two young boys, although she is not pregnant YET. I do believe that she would resort to that, if needbe.<P>My heart goes out to you and your young children. Thank you so much for responding. I hope and pray that both of our H's find the "truth" within, as you call it.

Sidney,<P>My H's first wife left him after only two months because he wasn't assertive enough. He once told me how much he appreciated that I didn't run off at the first sign of conflict, but stayed to work it out. I never thought of my H as a conflict avoider, because he was quite explosive - but it finally occurred to me that he wasn't that way with people whom he was afraid would stop loving him, like his father, and me, until we had been together quite awhile. <P>He also said that he was planning suicide if he stayed with me - and the therapist, as far as I know, didn't really follow up on it. She kept pushing him to "clarify his feelings" early on, trying to force him to make a decision. I think it was terribly irresponsible of her not to seem more concerned about his suicidal thoughts, especially since he had mentioned a specific plan, which I have read you should never ignore. She did suggest he see a therapist, but I don't think she really pushed it, even though it didn't take a rocket scientist to see that he was suffering from severe depression. <P>He, too, is PA - frequently agreeing to something and then not doing it. The OW is very controlling - telling him what to say when he is on the phone with me, not letting me talk to him when I called about the kids(the first time I had called him there in a year), restricting the amount of time he can spend with the kids, not wanting him to set foot in our house when he picks up the kids, even wanting him to keep the kids from calling home to say goodnight. And he takes it, even though I see the sadness in his eyes when he looks at the kids, even though his son begs him to spend more time with them, he says he wants to but he "can't". <P>Are they all cut from the same cloth?

I think your H needs a new therapist. My W committed A and I have been in therapy since June. My therapist just listened and nodded. Worthless. I changed to a female therapist and we both like her a lot better, but I still get no direction, because my W takes up all the time. You have to hunt for somebody that believes in restoration. If he doesn't, if he always has that bail out mentality, that is what he will end up doing.<BR>I don't care if my wife stays or goes at this point, but I'm willing to try. I think you almost have to get to where I am.

Hi Sidney,<P>I'm so sorry for all this.<P>Your H sounds a bit like mine. They don't know what they really want, I think they think it's us, but they don't know what to do to make it better. (I had to type that fast while the thought was in my head!!) And to make matters worse, they know have someone new, who probably makes them feel 'good' about themselves. But I often ask myself while I'm lying there trying to go to sleep - 'what does he REALLY think?'<P>My divorce goes through 3 weeks today. He knows that. But he hasn't returned a form to my solicitor that he needs to. She even enclosed a stamped addressed envelope. Anyway, I rang him last night and asked him to bring it to our d's school morning tea that he was attending with us. He said yes, he would. Guess what. He cleaned his office last week because his boss was visiting, and he's put it 'somewhere'. He'll mail it as soon as he finds it. Uh huh.<P>My H is the biggest conflict avoider that ever walked (apart from his parents), and despite the many times I have asked what the problems where between us, he has never given me an answer. He doesn't know. I'm getting to the stage where I actually feel sorry for him. What is inside him that he cannot open up to his wife, who has stood by him no matter what. We had a great marriage, and were great friends, or at least I thought so.<P>If your H hasn't left the house yet, try not to let him. That is the biggest mistake I made, and I regret it so much. Yes he was having an affair, yes he said he would choose her, but I made the decision for him. I left him. I pushed him into her arms, and into this 'new wonderful bachelorhood' life that he now loves so much. He doesn't know how to find his way back, because he was never taught how to deal with conflict or issues such as these.<P>I agree with DeWayne that he needs a new therapist, straight away. I guess it's up to him tho isn't it? Could you gently suggest that she doesn't seem to be helping much, and that surely there are better therapists out there.<P>Do you want the divorce? If not, hang on. I wish so much I had found MB before I walked. I know it's not fair, what we have to deal with, while they make up their minds, and have ALL the cake. But if you love this man, and want him as your husband, don't do what I did. Don't push him into someone else's arms. My H's relationship with OW #1 lasted all of 6 months, but now he's on his 5th girlfriend in the year and a half we have been separated. He's having 'fun', and I opened the door so he could do that. <BR>Try to hang on, and keep coming here. I could talk to you for days about all the things I did wrong. But, having never gone through this before, and with no divorced friends, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, or what I should do. My H told me he didn't know if he loved me, said he was going to leave to put some space betw. us, but I left before all of that could happen. Who knows what would have happened had I stayed, and hung on. Oh well, too late now. It's something that I have learnt, the most painful lesson ever, but at least I have learnt.<P>I know how hard it is for you. Knowing where they are when they're not with you. I used to wave my H off every morning with our 12 mo d, knowing he was going to be with her. They worked together. It almost killed me.<P>Keep your chin up, keep working on you throughout it all, and keep coming here. If you want my email address, let me know.<P>big hugs for you<P>Jo

Hi Nellie,<P>Yes, I think they ARE all cut from the same cloth. As hard as it is on US and on all the family members concerned, it always boils down to the fact that it's THEIR problem.<P>As nurterers, we find this SO hard to accept. Believe me, I know. Sometimes, I think it is in their genetic makeup as well as a result of all the childhood trauma. Over the course of the last two years, H has turned into his mother. It's so eerie and so scary. He is going to live out the final years of his life just like her. A bitter, lonely old man. Alone.<P>I'm so sorry for what you're going through. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.<P>Hi Stunned,<P>I suggested to H yesterday that he see a different therapist. He doesn't want to since he says this is his fourth. He has talked to a couple of other counselors, but never more than once or twice. It really galls me that I'm paying the premiums for the health insurance so he can see this therapist who is leading him towards a divorce!<P>Hi Bonnet!<P>It's so good to hear from you. I'm very sorry to hear that you're in the final stages of divorce. I'm afraid that I will be joining you very soon. H now tells me that a divorce would be the best thing for ME. His therapist has planted the seed, and now he is heading in that direction. I feel, at this point, it's like trying to steer the Titantic clear of the impending iceberg.<P>I got the book, "Sudden Endings" from the library yesterday. Finally, I think now I understand what I am dealing with. It's describes the narcissistic rage that is directed at the wife which causes them to emotionally shutdown towards us. H has told me many times that he has this anger towards me that he cannot understand, but is there nonetheless. Sadly, the author of the book had to go through eleven psychologists before she hit on one that understood what was going on. By that time, her H was lost to her. The cards are stacked against me.<P>I am teetering on the edge. I don't want to file for divorce, yet, the stress is killing me. I had a horrific headache last evening, that would not go away.<P>H & I talked yesterday about a divorce. He doesn't want to move out of our home. Neither do I, and I asked him if he wanted me to leave. He said, "No". I told him that I didn't think a divorce was the answer because we would wind up living apart, but that he would be over to see me all the time. Just like what happened when we were separated the last time. He wouldn't stay away. I told him that the only way that wouldn't happen is if I left town with no forwarding address. He said, "You wouldn't do that to me. That would be punishment." I asked him if he wanted a divorce so that he could marry OW. He shook his head 'No' and indicated that he wouldn't even consider it. But who knows what he's really thinking. I just can't bear the thought of leaving my home and her moving in. I have a nagging feeling that that's exactly what the plan is.<P>The mixed messages are truly driving me insane. He told his counselor on Wednesday that he was going to go see OW on Friday. The counselor said, "So that your wife will ask you for a divorce, because you can't verbalize it." He said he agreed. Yet, on Thursday, he went out and bought a new blazer for a Christmas concert I have tickets for in December. Then yesterday, I suggested we rent a room downtown that night so we wouldn't have to drive all the way back after the concert. He agreed that was a good idea.<BR>He says a divorce would be the best thing for me, yet he also says that I'm his best friend. He wants a divorce, yet he wants to maintain a presence in my life. He said the counselor told him he has to start thinking of only himself. He told her that he couldn't do that. He said he has to do what's best for me too. HUH????????????????????<P>Do you think his plan really IS to drive me insane?

Well, H and I spent the day together yesterday, just like old times. He is sooo down on himself; his self-esteem is in shreds. When he completes a project successfully, he'll say, "I can't believe I actually got something to work." Or, he'll beat himself up for not taking action on something sooner, then worry about a possible outcome which has yet to even happen! Of course, my first response is always to rush to his defense. But, I can tell that my words of encouragement fall on deaf ears. It's like he won't believe me because he can't believe it himself.<P>I've been reading more of "Sudden Endings", and it's all making sense to me now. His fragile self esteem was shattered a couple of years ago due to a series of disappointments, & the anger, shame and frustrations were too much for him to deal with, so he's projected his perceived failings onto me. This would explain the 'anger' he says he feels towards me, but which he says has no explanation and he cannot understand. This anger has extinguished all sexual desire for me, thus he transferred those feelings onto OW.<P>Well, he just left for another counseling session this morning. I cringe at the thought. Now, I have another enemy- a therapist who is attempting to convince him that all his problems can be solved with one neat, little divorce. She actually told him last week that our longstanding friendship and strong bond is not a healthy thing! And, the fact that we've not fought throughout our marriage is "not normal". I do agree that we need to learn better skills for communicating, but this just makes me furious!!!<P>Before he left today, I told him that I certainly don't want to make his life miserable, and that if he can honestly say that he would be much happier without me, then I will leave. He took a very long time to respond, then said, "I can't envision my life without you."<P>So, the saga continues. One day at a time.

"Sudden Endings" was so accurate, so similar to what I have experienced, that it was terrifying. A number of things happened in the couple of years preceding the affair in my H's case - business failure, which was financially disasterous and I think made him feel like a failure. Then our relative was murdered, which I think precipitated his depression. <P>So much of what my H has said involved projection. There is no point in trying to reason with someone in this state - they are living in a parallel universe. <P>I think many therapists do far more harm than good. Our therapist actually claimed that it is not a therapists job to help a couple decide whether or not to stay married - they are supposed to decide that first, before coming to therapy! Many, probably most, therapists are divorced themselves. Even the supposedly pro-marriage therapist that was recommended to us was divorced after a 30 year marriage, supposedly because he couldn't meet his wife's need for organization. Yeah, right. <P>At least your H realizes that he doesn't understand why he is angry at you. That is better than just being angry and being convinced that he is justified.

Thanks, Nellie. <P>Yes, I totally agree with you. From my experience, I am not at all impressed with therapists. And yes, they can make a bad situation even worse. How can a therapist pass judgement on a 22 year marriage after meeting with us a few times, and say that our marriage is "unhealthy". If that were so, then how on earth did it last for 22 years?? It just doesn't make sense to me that two people who obviously love each other (she did at least acknowledge that) should get a divorce.<P>She seems to have taken the stance that the affair wouldn't have happened unless the marriage was bad to begin with. She told my H that because he has emotionally disconnected from me that he will continue to have affairs!! She appears to be totally circumventing the point that as long as he's in an affair, he WILL BE emotionally disconnected from me.<P>I just don't know. I'm beginning to think that my H has a personality disorder that prevents him from truly forming intimate relationships. He tells me stuff like he's afraid of me, that it's painful to talk to me, that he fears I will hurt him.<P>I feel so stuck. I can't move on. He says he wants a divorce, yet he can't pursue it or even say the word. He won't move out. I can't bring myself to leave my home, nor do I feel that I should have to after everything I've been through. I can't distance myself as long as we are still together. Thus, I can't file either.<P>The hardest part is the not knowing if things will ever change.

Frank Pittman says that men do not have affairs because of problems in the relationship with their wives, but because of problems in their relationships with their father. I think there is a lot of truth in that statement in my H's case. His father always seemed distant, critical, and uninvolved, and clearly favored his brother. I assume that other childhood relationship problems, especially with the mother, could also seriously affect the ability of men to form intimate relationships.

OH goodness, then I'm really in trouble. H has never met his father. His mother is a bi-polar, alcoholic, drug addict that abandoned him more times than you can imagine throughout his life and continues to be a plaque in our life. <P>He finally verbalized his feelings towards his mother the other night to his grandmother, who raised him and is quite a nut herself. That was a huge step for him.

Nellie/Pam- I think you both are correct. Childhood bonding issues with either or both parents can last a lifetime. Pam, the description of your H's mother sounds just like my mother in law whom we haven't seen or heard from in ten years now! She disowned my H when he asked her not to smoke in our home. Literally jumped in her van, drove off, never to be seen again. Oh, she did say some pretty nasty, hateful things to ME before her departure, but not to her son. And, H grew up fatherless because his alchoholic mother wouldn't allow him any contact with the kids. Wouldn't even take any money from him; instead they lived in poverty.<P>Sometimes I really wonder how my H turned out at all. I think knowing all of this is what has made it so hard for me to throw in the towel. The only family H has is me and my family, who is semi-dysfunctional but look like Ozzie & Harriet compared to his family.

I think it is very rare for someone to be able to sustain relationships as an adult if they felt unloved by a parent as a child. I think it is even more unlikely when they thought their parent loved them, and then they are later rejected.<P>Of my six children, 4 are quite adamant about not ever wanting to get married. The preschooler is too young to understand the concept of marriage, and the one child who plans to marry someday thinks fathers are largely extraneous when it comes to child-rearing.

I could add a few things to that discussion on therapists, or the experience with them, but maybe it could/should/would be a whole different subject?<BR>rrunrr