Lostva and Lor:<P>Both of you amaze me and I need to respond to your replies you posted to me back on 11/8/00.<P>Lostva: you said you changed you, I want to know what you changed and how you knew what to change? What exactly did you do to "find" yourself? Did you lose weight or start excercizing more or what?<P>Lor:<P>I too am very cold-hearted and angry with my H. I base how I feel about him on the past and expect the worst out of him. I feel like I am not giving him a fair trial here! I have had trouble with doing Plan A because I think it is so subservient and superficial. You need to feel those things before you can act on them.<P>I continue to "beat him up" so to speak about the OW, when in fact she is gone-gone, bye, bye. I know this, but can't seem to let it go... He said recently that if I knew how he feels inside when I mention the A or OW, I wouldn't do it because it is so painful, and he doesn't know how much longer he can take it.<P>My learning to trust him again is the biggest issue I have, if I could trust him fully again, I think I could be more receptive and loving to him.<P>You two are great advisors and I wish you were close enough to be physical friends with me. Oh, how I wish there were somewhere to go to talk to people about this STUFF!!!<P>Thanks in advance for responding if you get the chance.<P>Cathy

Seems like you need to start working on forgiving your H. You cant go on and recover while you feel like you do. Its hurting both of you. I remember somepeople were working on a workbook about forgiveness awhile ago. I am at that place too, maybe someone remenbers what the workbook was.<BR>Lora

Catplay,<P> I don't know what it is, but everytime I write out a long, thoughtful reply to you, aol kicks me off. Gotta go to work now, but I will try to re-create the masterpiece I just lost and be back.<P>computers--a real love/hate connection.

Hi Cathy,<P>I was just looking at your profile and noticed that you are from Columbia, SC. I am from a little town in Southeastern NC, but have been to Columbia quite a few times as it is about a two hour drive from here.<P>I agree that both Lostva and Lor are amazingly strong women. Lori(lostva) and I came to this forum at about the same time, and there were times her situation seemed so hopeless, but she followed the MB principles and has really survived and recovered. Lor has been at this much longer than I have, but she too has made it all the back from a seemingly failed marriage to a strong and happy one. Those two, and many others here, keep giving me hope that this can be done!<P>I responded to your post about the void you feel because I share so many of the feelings you express. I can also relate to your continued "punishment" of your husband, and many of the things you mention on this post about the lack of trust, anger, and coldness that you feel.<P>Firestorm and I are counseling with Steve Harley, and last week I had an individual session with Steve. He really helped me to understand my feelings and actions and how they go together. I too continue to bring up the affair to my husband, though I know it hurts him for me to do it and I really think that it is over. Steve pointed out that I do this as a form of self protection, to remind both myself and firestorm of how much I am hurting and to keep firestorm somewhat "at arm's length". By that I mean close enough to watch, but not close enough to hurt me again.<P>Many betrayed spouses have stated on this site that forgiveness is a choice, and I believe that is true. After our first dday, it took many weeks for me to even decide if I was going to stay in this marriage or not. When I finally did decide to stay, I started working on forgiving firestorm. Each day I made a real effort to forgive him for the betrayal, and I prayed for help in finding forgiveness. It did not happen immediately, but I was able to forgive him completely and when I did I wrote him a letter telling him that I honestly forgave him and was going to try my best to trust him again. I also gave him a new wedding ring as a symbol of my love and forgiveness. That was on Christmas Eve of 1999.<P>On August 16th this year I found out that the OW had started contacting him again. The first time it happened, she left him a message on his voicemail. He did not respond and told me about the message. She tried again in April, this time by email. After a few messages, he responded. The phone calls started a few weeks later. The meetings started in July. The affair had involved face-to-face contact for about six weeks when I found out in August.<P>I can honestly say that it didn't hurt as much this time, because I had never fully trusted him again. But the damage done has been much greater, and not just because they had sex this time. I am finding it so much harder to find positive feelings for him this time. In our counseling session, Steve asked me if I still love my husband, and I told him that I couldn't feel it anymore if I did. Steve assured me that I do still love him, but that my feelings are still numbed from the shock and trauma I have experienced. The affair has severed that special, intimate connection that we shared and that I thought we had started to regain after the first dday. Actually, the affair was never resolved because firestorm refused to send a no-contact letter or to commit to following the guidelines for recovery that are part of the MB principles. This time the affair has been completely resolved and ended, but I am holding back from making the committment to forgive and move forward because of the hurt and fear that I feel.<P>Steve is really helping me work through that, and I will soon start seeing a counselor here to help me work on the personal issues caused by the affair. I have come to realize, with Steve's guidance, that I am withholding forgiveness, trust, love, and affection (somewhat) both to "punish" firestorm and to protect myself from more hurt and disappointment. Steve is working on setting up a plan for us to follow that will concentrate on firestorm working to rebuild my trust and on me accepting what has happened so that I will be able to forgive in time.<P>I don't know if anything I have written here is helpful to you, but I hope so. If you and your husband are not in counseling, I highly recommend that you do it. I was really uncertain about phone counseling, but I find I much prefer it. Steve focuses on saving our marriage, and he helps us to focus on it. He reassures us of the possibility of our future happiness, and gives us realistic goals and assignments to make them happen. It gives me real hope that we will be able to make it through this. I hope that you and your husband will be successful in your efforts to save your relationship. <P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint<P><p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited November 16, 2000).]

Catplay and I'll add you, Peppermint,<BR>First of all, thanks for your kind words. I'm well aware I've made some incredible mistakes along with my H's...but, I guess the fact that we're together means that there is a great deal that can be overcome.<P>I think the things I'm going to share aren't really for the just found out. Sometimes I *almost* hesitate to post because I'm talking about a personal time frame of years. And I'm still here on MB, and haven't gone happily flitting off. But there are getting to be a group of us who have been in the trenches a long time, a year or more +, and it has gone beyond Plan A or B to reconciliation and in and out of recovery to...my isn't the time passing, do I still belong with this spouse, trying to work through all of this? (4 successful rules of marriage and POJA are for us, right?)<P>On trust: I put trust on a backburner. I feel 2 ways about it 1) I'll never be able to trust again, except for trust in God, and though I'm a Christian, I sometimes prefer not to give God a completely male identity--Creator works for me, or I think it is Psalms somewhere that calls God the Great Breadbaker. I like that. 2) All living, and especially marriage & family, requires some kind of trust, pretty much all the time.<P>How I handle it: Trust must be earned. When trust is earned, it flows. For example before Jan 00 I could ask myself, does Guard love me (yes). Is he willing to do what needs to be done on his part to make the marriage work (willing maybe, but not doing so). Am I willing (yes). After Feb, those answers changed to he was willing, I was not. But his behavior changed. His words & actions lined up, after a couple months, I could give him another chance. It wasn't easy, it still isn't if I think about what has gone by. But after being together now for 6 months & solidly for 3 (and this being our 7th reconciliation, it isn't as new a concept for us as those in their first reconciliation--or who just got the hang of it right away!), he's earning trust. When he walks out the door, I think he'll be back, and he'll call if he's going to be late. When he comes in work contact with her, I think (hope! pray!) he'll interact appropriately and there will be no social interaction. He's given me passwords to his email & voice mail. I rarely check, I rarely drive by his or her parking lot. He invites me to work socials & afterwork beers. I don't know what my level of trust is, but I do know there is some.<P>Trusting makes me feel vulnerable. Nothing I can do about that. I was terribly hurt...over and over. I'd have to have had a lobotomy or no sense of self-preservation not to have some uncertainty. But I feel my emotions, I don't make decisons based on them. Emotions ebb & flow. An example: I feel great about my marriage & H, I sign onto MB & there's a post from someone with an infuriating (to me) attitude that reminds me of bad times...and in seconds, I don't feel so good about my H, about me, or our future. That is simple emotion, and triggers are a lot like that. So, it must be dealt with, you recognize what is happening, you reaffirm what is real (or what you think is real ;sigh and try to recapture that good feeling.<P>The Past:<BR>There was quite awhile when I thought I wanted to talk about H's affair because there were things I wanted to "clear up". It was futile and pointless for 2 reasons. 1) I had all the information Guard was going to be able to give me. In the past 3 years I've read at least a hundred books on affairs, communication, marriage, anger, depression, relationships, divorce, lying, sex etc. And, I've got my own experience to draw on. For these reasons it was just rehashing and not serving a purpose. 2) Talking about Guard's affair or the OW made him feel like a failure or reminded him what a failure he has been. Not my intention to do that, but my male counselor assures me this is how guys work. I'd think I was just talking in a nonLB way & instead I was decimating my H's self-worth. And if I wasn't ever going to drop it, why would he try to do better? Why would he work on the marriage when I didn't want to talk about the gains he has made *now* but I wanted to talk about his past failure?<P>You've got to think about whether or not your actions are leading to the goal you want. If you want your marriage, you don't do the things that dishearten your mate. <P>So, how I dropped the past:<BR>Forgiveness. I've written about this before, and this is the method recommended by my counselor. Find some time alone. Write down every hurtful thing--situations, events, words, actions, betrayals, lies. Include those of your spouse, the OP, and any others that facilitated or encouraged the affair or the end of your marriage. Go ahead and rail to God, using whatever language this brings out in you. Tell God exactly how you'd handle this if you were God . Read through Psalm 139 or some of David's other warlike prayers if you can't think of enough bad things to happen. Then...forgive each thing. Then, write down where you have erred...the LB, the cursing, or anything of that sort that may or may not have actually occured. Ask for forgiveness (I'm still talking about being by yourself, you decide if there are things that you need to ask forgiveness for from your spouse...at some time). Then destroy the hurt--rip up the paper, burn it, whatever. Those things are now in God's hands. When thoughts of them start to rattle around in your brain, do not take possession of them again, shove them right back at God.<P>I personally had to do this a few times over a period of Aug 99 -Jul 00 as we had more separations, contacts, and then that cold, cold heart of mine. I firmly believe this process is not to benefit the WS, it is to keep from becoming bitter and constantly reliving the crap. Honestly, wasn't it painful enough the first time(s) through? Do you really want to intentionally keep the pain fresh & on your mind?<P>Ok, you say it isn't intentional (I'm just guessing that's what someone would say ) If you go over and over the same thing, it is stirring the same old pot instead of emptying the pot and choosing the new ingredients. And that's where, if the spouse isn't changing, some of the new ingredients are setting boundaries. I don't believe Plan A, done *correctly* is subservient & superficial, but I think the line between being a dormat and setting boundaries is very difficult to find, especially since situations do vary so much. One size does not fit all. And I think that is why concentrating on not lovebusting, yet respectfully stating your position is the important part of it. It isn't just *playing nice with others* although that may be part of what some of us need to do. <P>Dropping the past felt very good to me.<P>It is ongoing. I do get tripped up.<P>Example, a few days ago H & 15 year old were talking, she says to him, "you don't know because that's when you weren't living here." He handled it well, acknowledging that he had missed things and regretted it. Then a day or two pass, he has set some chores for her, she doesn't do them, she *forgot* (ah 15, what an age). Another day passes & he discliplines her. Suddenly, although I didn't say anything in front of her (at least I don't think I did) I'm angry about all the months he was out of the house and I handled this crap all by myself, while he did see them but did fun stuff. And again, I wanted my H to *know* what we (me & the kids) had gone through.<P>The thing is, I know how remorseful he is. In comparison to some WS on this board, he saw the kids nearly every day or talked to them. He did as well as a parent could do, being out of the house. Since being home, he's done everything he can to repair those relationships. But I was mad about something that last took place over 6 months ago. But...it was never on my list of things that I forgave because it wasn't as *big* or intentional as most of those things. I didn't like praying with & tucking the kids in without him at night.<P>My counselor calls this sort of thing "shrapel". The affair & separations were like a bomb. I've taken care of the huge wounds, but those little slivers will come to the surface.<P>My H will never know how much I hurt. We won't know how much the kids hurt. I don't know how much he hurts. But if we keep jabbing sharp words into those wounds, they don't heal, we don't heal. The hurt is there for all of us. It just is. And when you know it is there, like your H says it is, Catplay, maybe it is something you can let time heal for him for awhile.<P>I guess, when you think about bringing something up, or something starts to nag at you, ask yourself, is this something that will help and enrich our marriage? Or am I stirring an old pot.<P>I doubt very much I could have gotten through this without my counselor, and certainly not without MB.<P>After a post this long, it probably sounds dopey to say I don't know if I covered everything I was thinking about!<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

What a hard question! I mean, I did lose weight - that wonderful infidelity diet, you know! But the changes were more subtle, more real, I think. And much harder to explain.<P>I agree with Lor. Plan A, done correctly is not subservient in the least! It cannot be accomplished by someone weak. It's tough. It takes amazing strength and you can't "fake it". It's real changes or improvements, by you and for you. Your spouse reaps the benefits. It does no good whatsoever to "pretend" to be sweet or kind, or whatever for THEM! It won't last, it's not real.<P>I took the book "Life Strategies" by Phil McGraw and did it just like I was supposed to. See, I guess I don't really believe that people can fundamentally change, but I believe that, deep inside, we're all already capable of being much more than we are so far. And, my idea of change was to look at myself realistically and reach down and BECOME more of the person I was meant to be.<P>I'm not perfect. In fact, I'm going through a new "growth stage" right now. New things, new improvements. Plan on doing it forever. <P>The "changes" weren't really for Robert, although that's how they started. I really didn't think he'd ever come home, you know. I really didn't. Then the changes became for me and me alone. And I LIKED them! And I liked ME!!!!!<P>Lor's been through so much more...so has Peppermint. And she's right. I'm one of those who feel that EVERYTHING begins with a decision, a choice. And then you make your actions (even if your emotions don't initially) reflect that choice. Soon, it becomes part of you. (See Samantha's posts on "acting if" on Beth's threads on recovery!). <P>Trust is a bit the same way. I forgave Robert long before I even knew he was coming home. I had to do that for me. When I decided I wanted him to come home, I also decided that I had to trust him a certain amount. And it WAS hard at first - specially with them working together. And he let me down sometimes. But I "acted if". And he grew stronger. And then, one day, I realized I didn't even THINK sending him off to work...hadn't for a while. Not a TWINGE if he called to say he was gonna be late. I told Beth...I think that was trust. I don't take him OR our marriage for granted....assuming it will always be there or be real no matter what I do. But, I really think that I trust....much more than I thought I did. There's a big difference in trusting and taking for granted.<P>I highly recommend the book. It's difficult if you give it the time and concentration it deserves and seems a bit hard and depressing at first sometimes. But what Power it helps you find once you're done! Maybe that was the change.....I found my power....power over myself and my life. And everyone liked me better for it.<P>Hope it helped. You've got some great answers here from some of the best....people I've looked up to for a long time. <P>Take care of yourself.<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited November 16, 2000).]

Thanks to all of you old pros. We definitely stick together don't we. I don't know what I would do without your advice or your sharing the "experience"!<P>Peppermint:<BR>I know you responded to "the void" post, I just couldn't get back to the computer to respond to any of the replies.<BR>Unfortunately, we can't afford the phone counsel. with Harley at this time.<BR>I know you are of close proximity to us and maybe we could get together sometime. Thanks, you have many wonderful ideas to share.<P>Lor:<BR>How in the name of the Lord have you done this 7 times? What does your H have to draw you back in? What, may I ask, is your limit?<P>I have my H's e-mail and voice mail codes all the things that pose a threat or are triggers for me. He has been trying so hard and I have literally destroyed his efforts. I think I should be shot at sunrise sometimes for treating him so badly. I think maybe it is like Peppermint suggested, I do this out of fear of being hurt again, and I keep him near, but far enough away as to not get hurt. I know all the BS on this site would love to be in my shoes at this time and would probably hate me for not doing my part. This is taking me a very long time to process though. I know I'll do better, I really want to. Thanks for responding so promptly to me, I appreciate your time so much.<P>Lostva:<P>I read your PT story on recovery channel... that's a hoot!!!<P>I have the Life Strategies book and I actually started and finished it... but I need to do it again because, when I did it before it was too early and we had too many issues going on for me to concentrate properly. It is terrific though, and I want my adult children to read it.<P>I need to stifle my gripes and be patient for the day when my H will begin to "tell me" what he disliked about OW and what a mess he made of his life. He has already begun to share some of his dislikes about her and if I would just hang on, he will eventually tell me without my even having to ask! Oh, I can't wait until that day! It will come, I know him all too well!<P>Not long ago, we were driving on the interstate and I made a funny about them being together and we actually laughed and were having fun... he then said to me, what if we died in an accident right now, who would believe husband and wife were talking about OW and laughing about the A before we left this world.<P>I know I am wrong and it scares me... have I been wounded so badly? I asked him the other night how he felt about us and he said he felt numb!!! Have I ruined our chances of having a wonderful life and marriage? I want so much for our children to see two people who love each other have problems and work them out in spite of the magnitude and still love each other. I honestly believe this is what the world or our society needs.<P>Some may see this as being weak and needy, but I believe it is strength in it's greatest sense.<P>Thanks to all of you for posting to me, you have been of immense help to me, again!<P>Cathy

Thank you all so much for making this thread.<BR>I can't tell you how much it has helped me and how much I have been able to relate to it.<P>I've been guilty of doing the same exact thing Peppermint, keeping my H at arm's length. I would throw the OW in his face constantly. I know now that the reason I did it was because I was hurting so much that I had to make sure he was also hurting. We were having a HUGE argument Sunday, and he blurted out that he was mourning too. When I finally managed to drag out what was causing him pain, missing her or pain for what he has done to us/me, it kind of set me free. He finally opened up as to how horrible he feels about what he did. How much pain he is in. He told me more about how he felt about her during the A, and for once I don't think he sugarcoated anything to make it easier for me. I now know that he found fairly early on that he didn't want it, and it just took a while to finally untangle himself, and also time for me to be willing to open up enough to give things another chance, even though I didn't know for sure about the affair until much later. I can't say for sure that I'll never bring her up again, but I don't feel the need to punish him anymore, because now I know that he is already punishing himself.<P>I think I have finally begun to forgive him. I understand exactly why/how the A happened. It still hurts like Hell, but I understand. And I also realize that until I forgive him, I won't be able to free myself from this pain.<P>I don't think I'll ever trust him again. But I finally realize that maybe that isn't so important. If I don't stop having the mindset that he's going to cheat eventually so I better start punishing him for it now, I'm never going to be able to relax and enjoy my marriage. If he decides to cheat again, there is not a damn thing I can do to stop him. <P>I can't change him. It's just like Dr. Phil says, every book I read I'm skimming the table of contents for the chapter on how to change this rotten stinking cheating husband of mine. Then I look for the one that confirms what a horrible person he is and what a poor long suffering wonderful wife I am. I want to be right. Now I know I already am right, cheating is wrong always has been always will be, now I want to be happy.<P>Boy do I know about shrapnel. H and I have a horrible habit of taking things and putting them away in our mental file cabinet. Then whenever we are in an argument and feel the need to inflict pain on each other we reach into the file cabinet, pull out a sharp one and just hurl it at each other. I'm trying real hard to throw out the filing cabinet.

Catplay,<BR>you said: <<How in the name of the Lord have you done this 7 times? What does your H have to draw you back in? What, may I ask, is your limit?>><P>There is a certain quality of foolhardiness in trying so many times. But, each time seemed to make sense. What my H has that draws me: his personality, we have had similar goals, interests & beliefs, his attractiveness, our past together, that he has been a wonderful partner for most of our nearly 20 years together, he's the father of my children, and we have spark.<P>The #1 reconciliation didn't work out because I didn't know about the affair and so didn't realize it had resumed. #2 was in some ways the worst. We tried so hard...but without counseling & my H needed anti-deps. He didn't get through withdrawal. #3 Short-lived. I was angry & befuddled & didn't realize his contact was back on. He wanted me as his wife, but he didn't want to commit to me (one of those foggy thoughts) #4 Same as last one. #5 I think we got back together for his family reunion. . This one fell apart and the affair went full-blown again with them going out often in public, while he told me he had moved out to "think" and for "space". #6 This was last Holiday season. She had moved on to a new man--his former housemate, but he moved home because it was the right thing to do, not because he felt right about it. When he left, that WAS my limit. <P>So, there, I have seen my limit, and how do I explain now? <P>In Feb my counselor asked me the "magic wand" question, something he has done frequently. "if you had a magic wand and your life would be anyway you wanted, what would it be like?" My answer had always been a restored marriage. In Feb I said I wanted a divorce. And I saw the lawyer and served the papers. And stopped going to the counselor. And started seeing a male friend, the better to build the wall between me and Guard (I didn't know that was a big part of the reason then and I DO NOT recommend it because it only caused more hurt all around--well, that and of course it is wrong morally.)<P>So, how did this reconciliation happen? Some days I really don't know how I got the guts to do it. Prayer, once again seeing our counselor, H's change in behavior, no contact with the EA OM.<P>One day just saying, in the future I would regret it if I did not give Guard (the improved Guard) this chance. And we went into it with "this is the last chance, either of us screws up and the marriage ends." I think "divorce is not an option" would have been a better motto, but that isn't what our mindset was.<P>Is it the last chance? I dunno, I thought quite a few of them were the last chance. Chances 3-5 are pretty much a blur for me. I was posting during that time, but I don't want to go back & read because I know I'm forgetting stuff and that is a good thing. And I didn't really have the energy for #6, neither of us did.<P>I read something very early on, about MLC. It said midlife crisis can last as long as 5 years, and if you can hold yourself together as your spouse goes through it, there is a good chance that the marriage will recover. Then the author, I think this was Sally or Jim Conway, said 5 years sounds impossible, but think of it like your child's pre-school age or teenage years. There are tough tough times in parenting, but with any one child you don't work on toilet training at the same time you work on beginning to date. You go through one stage at a time, though intertwined with the old and new stages.<P>We just live through this, one step at a time. And we'd be growing older no matter what we were doing. One of my long-distance friends just found out Guard & I were back together. She said, "What are you going to do when he leaves you in 5 years and you're 45 and there are even fewer men available?" It almost struck me funny, I'll be 45 in 5 years no matter what--unless I'm dead first. Dumping my H because I'm more attractive now than I will be is certainly not the way I'm going to plan out my life. And I don't know, I think I look better at 40 than I did at 30, when I was the mom of preschoolers and frumpinesss was a way of life.<P>I guess I got off on a tangent, but projecting into the future and looking back to what you think you should have done now, or the magic wand, is a way to determine where your heart lies.<P>So, in the last couple years, I've given my H more chances than seems quite right. He's also given me chances that other men don't give their wives. But none of us can change the past. The best we can do is make what we hope are wise choices as they come our way for an optimal future. It can leave a pretty colorful patchwork in our past.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Lor,<BR>Thanks for sharing and taking the time to post a reply. I hope my questioning your decision didn't upset you or cause any hurtful flashbacks.<P>I am of the mindset that you need to do what you need to do, regardless!!! The history alone is enough reason for me to try to reconstruct what should have been a terrific marriage.<P>I am married to a wonderful, kind man who made a terrible mistake and I need to remember this everyday and believe in him and myself.<P>I honestly think we will make it. I need to decide what I am willing to let go of and send it up in ashes or put it on a back burner for now. Maybe, I will never take it off the backburner, maybe I'll just let it completely burn up.<P>We (H and I) need to construct a positive plan of action for ourselves and stick to it.<BR>I am going to ask him if he is willing to do this and work on the plan together.<P>Thanks again, and best of love to you!!!<P>Cathy