I don't know if I have the energy to write a long update.... let's just say that SS4N and I have swapped roles. I am now the one clinging to our marriage and he is "in the fog". <P>I know there are many of you who will say, "Well, what did you expect?" I knew he wouldn't wait around forever. I knew there was a good chance that my actions would push him away forever. But to face that reality now is so..... devastating.<P>A few weeks ago I had asked him for another chance. I apologized, begged for him to forgive me, cut off contact with OM and told my husband that I wanted us to try and rebuild our marriage. I'm a day late and a dollar short. I read him an eleven page letter that I wrote to him - baring my soul. I have opened my heart, working my way through my pain, trying to find my way back to us. You know what that got me? The knowledge that my husband is sleeping with another woman.<P>I guess that's my "just desserts", right? I know that as a wayward spouse, I won't generate much sympathy. But to know that he fought and fought and held on for so long, and now that I've asked for another chance, he can just turn is back on that... it kills me. <P>I had to learn the hard way that I couldn't walk away from the five years we've spent together, so maybe he has to learn it the hard way, too. Maybe he won't learn it. <BR>I'm reluctant to post this here, because I don't want it to seem like I'm badmouthing him (he lurks still), but if I'm trying to explain how I feel and what I'm going through, I need to talk about all of it.<P>He is involved, both physically and emotionally, with another woman. He is "in the fog"... he doesn't know what he wants. He loves me, but doesn't think he can try with me. He is lying and deceiving, telling both of us what we want to hear because he's not sure which way to go. I'm not judging, because I'VE BEEN THERE. I think that's what makes it so hard. I KNOW what he's going through, and I know that it's impossible to sort through your feelings when you add someone ELSE'S feelings into the mix. And he KNOWS firsthand what my affair did to him. Everything he condemned me for, everything he blamed me for, everything he hated about my actions - he's guilty of now. I don't blame him, and like I said, I don't judge him.<P>I guess I just don't know what to do. He fought for us for so long, until he just couldn't anymore. I don't want to give up on my marriage, but after crawling back from the hell I've been in, I don't know that I have the strength to fight for both of us.<P>If we could work together to see if there's anything to rebuild... I'm willing. But I don't know if I can fight his demons when I'm still fighting my own.<P>Please pray for us that this works out the way God intends it to. I tried to do the right thing. It may have taken too long, but I tried.<P>I know our marriage looks very unattractive to him. Why wouldn't it? His wife betrayed him. We have both broken vows, told lies and turned to other people. Maybe I'm crazy for even wanting to try. Maybe a fresh start is what's in the cards for both of us.<P>But the bottom line is I still love him. We had something special once - something special enough for us to vow in front of God, our family and friends to love each other until death do us part. I learned the hard way that I couldn't walk away from him.<P>Now I guess I have to watch him walk away from me.... and hope that he comes back.<P>Please pray for us.<P>lost_in_love<BR>p.s. For anybody that wants to post an "I told you so" reply... please don't. I don't think I can handle getting kicked while I'm down.

Dear L_I_L<P>You won't get an "I told you so" from me. It really sounds like you feel bad enough. I guess what is so hard for us to understand is that when we humble ourselves and ask forgiveness, it is the rare person who will kick us when we are down. <P>I think that you now have a very good opportunity. My guess is that your husband began his relationship with this OW by telling her about his problems with you. Now he has begun a relationship with her. I suggest that you take her place. Become your husband's best friend by supporting him and telling him that you understand that given the state of your marriage, this was an obvious choice for him. Tell him that you have ended the relationship with the OM because he is not what you want, your H is. As you become his best friend, you will probably find that you will become the OW to the OW. Your husband may begin to confide in you his problems with the OW, and you can move back in. Use her strategy against her. <P>Again, as long as you are remorseful, it is very unlikely that anyone will flame you. (Unfortunately, I am married to one of the few people in the world who will kick a person when he is down.)<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, <BR>John

No real time to post, but wanted you to know I am praying. Don't give up. Light may very well be at the end of the tunnel.<P>Hugs,<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited November 17, 2000).]

L in L,<BR>Last spring we were exactly where you are. My H the WS wanted the marriage, I no longer did. There are more details on the current thread by Catplay "to Lor and Lostva".<P>My H did Plan A on me. He was there for me. He rebuilt my long-term goal that our marriage be restored, even as I served divorce papers.<P>It can be done, L in L. I'm not going to tell you it is easy or a sure thing, but my H & I have been together now for 6 months, after 2 years of us alternating Plan A & wanting out of the marriage, we're finally, if not on the same page, at least we're in the same book.<P>My advice would be to try Plan A for a couple months. My H also poured out his heart, and some of it is in posts under Guard in Feb. I just didn't believe him. I do now. It will take probably take at least as much effort as SS4N showed toward you, if not more, because, you aren't starting as the usual loving/neutral/blah/nothing's wrong here spouse, you are starting as someone who has hurt him terribly. Which you now understand.<P>And...you don't deserve this. No one deserves for their spouse to be unfaithful. None of us have the right to revenge. However, there does come a time when some of us can't or won't continue with a WS who remains in limbo and the choice is to continue on with life. It is an unfortunate choice your H is making to drag someone new into this mess before you are divorced...it is more pain in the making and compounding an already difficult situation.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

LIL -<P>I'll send you a more detailed email message, but look at the advice you've been given already. If you really want your marriage back, the only thing you can do is try. This time you are the one who has to Plan A, but you can do this - you've come this far, I'd hate for you to give up now.<P>I agree, I think counseling at this point would be very good for both of you. The thing is, look at yourself as your own example. If you can "come out of the fog" wanting your marriage, wanting to try and work things out - then your H can come out of it, too. I agree with Lor, it will take just as much effort as SS4N gave you, but you are strong enough to do that. Don't doubt yourself, you have come this far.<P>If it were me, I think I would have to try everything I could. Plan A for as long as you can, and then, if SS4N and you both agree that divorce is the ONLY option - then and only then throw in the towel. <P>When SS4N was Plan Aing, half of the equation for trying to work things out was there. Now, half of the equation is still there - the only thing you have to do is to get the timing back. If he is not sure about what he wants, I think maybe you should at least try to Plan A for a while - to see if he comes out of it.<P>Even though SS4N may not see it now, he can get to the same place that you are, but I think he may be a little hesitant. But, you can get through that, too. Just take it one day at a time - try to become the person that he comes to for support - be his best friend. I know you guys were in Plan B, but the rules have changed slightly. I think you need to try Plan A first and see what happens.<P>As always, my thoughts and prayers are with you and SS4N. I will pray that you get the strength and courage that you need to see this through, and I also pray that SS4N opens his heart to you once again. Have you asked your H to go to counseling with you? HAs he come right out and asked for a divorce? If he hasn't come right out and asked for a divorce, I think you need to at least try. And even if he has come out and asked for a divorce, I think you need to do what's best for you. Meaning, you should try to Plan A first - try everything you can, then decide what to do after a couple of months.<P>You are not alone, though, we're all here to support you when you need it .

I don't have a lot of time to respond, but I wanted to thank you all for your replies. I know there is a long, hard journey ahead, no matter what SS4N and I decide. <P>To answer your questions SKM....<BR>Yes, I have asked him to go to counseling with me. I didn't get an answer. He says he wants to talk to "someone"... not sure if he'll call his counselor or not. I told him that I am willing to go talk to someone with him, so we could see if there's anything left to try for.<P>About the divorce... I'm not sure if he came right out and asked or not. His question to me last night was, "What would you do if I said I wanted out?" Was that a serious question or a scare tactic or is he just mulling his options? I don't know.<P>I do know that I can't imagine standing next to him in front of a judge to sign divorce papers. It took me a long time, but i finally realized that I can't picture myself without him. <P>The ball's in his court now. All I can do is let him know I love him, work on myself and hope and pray that he finds his way back like I did.<P>Thanks for all of the support. If only I had a computer at home so I could sign on here instead of calling my friends at all hours of the night. <P>lost_in_love

One other thing... <P>I don't really know if SS4N is unsure of what he wants. He tells me he loves me, but doesn't think he could ever get past all of this. <P>But he told OW that he can "never, ever" come back to me.<P>As a WS, I know all about telling each person what they want to hear in order to keep all avenues open, so I'm sure that's what he's doing.<P>I have asked him, though, that if what he told her was the truth, then he needs to have the decency to tell me and let both of us get on with our lives.<P>I know only time will tell, but sometimes I feel like time is my enemy and I don't need to build anymore damn character!!! <P>lost_in_love

LIL -<P>If you're serious about answering his question "What if I said I wanted out?" - tell him that you still love him, that you feel like you have not had the chance to try and work things out - that you haven't even had the opportunity to try Plan A. And he'll know what that is . Tell him that you're not ready to give up on your marriage just yet - as you're finally coming out of the fog. Ask him to give you some time, some time to try.<P>I don't know if it was a "scare" tactic or not, but whatever it was you need to answer the question honestly - that you're just not ready to give up yet - that you want to try with 100% of your heart this time.<P>I think he's still "weighing" his options. He has given you an enormaous amount of time for you to come to your recent revelations - give him some time, too. Maybe that's all it takes. But, you have to start from this day forward to Plan A without any expectations. Like you said, work on you, on making you more attractive to him. That means, giving him the time and space that HE needs this time.<P>You're right, the ball is in his court, but it doesn't mean you have to smash it over the net - give him a nice big lob, so that he can have a chance to return it. The lob would be Plan Aing for a little while.<P>I guess if he really wants out - then he needs to be the one to file - not you. Give him time, just as he gave you time. Building character is good .

Hey...<BR>No "I told you so" post here. I am very, very sorry you are in this position. On the other hand, I do know how hard it is to watch your spouse in the fog, get so little in return ans start to lose hope...there were a few times I easily could have done just what your H is doing.<P>So, I have great sympathy with you both. You are in my prayers. Please remember that no matter what he feels now, it ain't over...<P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

LiL,<P>I would disagree with your assessment that the ball is in his court. You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To answer your questions SKM....<BR>Yes, I have asked him to go to counseling with me. I didn't get an answer. He says he wants to talk to "someone"... not sure if he'll call his counselor or not. I told him that I am willing to go talk to someone with him, <B>so we could see if there's anything left to try for.</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The part I put into bold is that part I would like to talk about. If you are not sure there is anything to try for, then how and why do you expect him to come back?<P>It seems to me the ball is in your court. You need to decide he is the man you want and the man you want to be married to. If you are uncertain, then he will surely be unwilling to risk coming back. <P>So my recommendation is for you to truely decide if you want him as your H. If you do, then act, think, and talk like you do. I realize that you are in withdrawal from OM. So does your H. So this is a very hard time for both of you. But you are the one that must really decide what she wants.<P>Then you can apply Plan A and hopefully persuade SS4N, that being married to you is something he wants. Right now it clearly isn't. But as you know things do change if one of the spouse really gives it their best shot.<P>LiL this is not going to be easy, and it may not work. However, you do have a certain amount of knowledge and experience on your side. Yes, that experience may have ended the marriage, but it does offer you insights that many don't have. So use what you know for the best.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: L_I_L go back and read your old posts and then read SS4N's posts. I think you might be able to see somethings in there that might help you. I hope so.<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 17, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 17, 2000).]

Lost in love,<P>Wow, talk about a taste of your own medicine, huh? I'm not trying to be insensitive, just realistic. I'm so sorry for your situation. Can you believe how the tables can turn? Well, I'm now where I can sit back and look at your situation with a very open mind.<P>My H and I have both been WS. His, two one-night stands. Mine, one long, deep relationship resulting in OM's child. My H and I have managed to stay married and muddle through it all. My #1 word of advice would be <B>PATIENCE</B>! I know that's easier said than done, but this process takes so much time. I can finally say, after 2 years that I'm over the OM, and my H and I's marriage is stronger than it's ever been. Not that it was ever easy getting there, because it we've been through hell and back.<P>Now, you, like me, have been on both sides of the coin. You can see now the pain he went through and exactly how he felt. It may feel like a pay back. And now you're the one that feels hopeless and so un-sure. Please try to hang in there. Keep trying to work w/your H, no matter how distant or "gone" he seems. I don't know how he can say he can never come back to you when now, he's the one doing exactly what you did. Just because you did it first does not make it OK for him to do so now. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how you look at it. <P>If you can, please keeping on w/Plan A and try to hang in there. Right now, you need to play the role my H did w/me. DON'T GIVE UP! My H never gave up on me, then when he almost did, it scared me to death and I couldn't handle it. I realized I needed him and couldn't live w/out him. Although I still had issues, feelings, withdrawal, etc. from the A to work out, I knew I wanted to be w/my H for the rest of my life and didn't want to live w/out him. That withdrawal is tough and can really screw a person up! Although a part of me will probably always care about the OM, I know I am meant to be w/my H and not him. <P>Give your H some time to realize what he's doing and what he'll miss w/out you. Counseling is also a must. It's going to take time for both of you to get through this pain and hurt of being betrayed. I don't know whose ball is in whose court, but I agree w/both SKM and Just Learning. I'd say the ball's in his court because he's the one seeing someone else right now. He's got to decide to be w/you or w/her. That decision is his right now. However, I also agree w/JL, in that your H needs to know that you absolutely want him and only him and you'll do whatever it takes to keep him. You definitely can't be wishy washy or uncertain when it comes to staying married. Let him know that you've both made mistakes, but that you CAN get through this together. It's a long, hard, hard road, but it's possible. I've traveled it and survived! And now I'm a better person for it!<P>You've been given some very good advice from some very wise people. Please keep posting and heed this advice. It will do wonders for your heart and soul to be able to share and get through this. Remember, TIME and PATIENCE! That's what it will take. My prayers are with you and your H. Please keep your chin up and post as often as you can. MB helped me more than I can ever express. <P>Prayers to you,<BR>Momma

Lil,<P>Well, everyone here will hopefully foregive me for not being politically correct in what I have to say here. Reading your post triggered fears I have long held in my heart about my H doing the same thing yours did.<P>I have one thing to say about a spouse who turns around and commits adultery back - Coward. Weak. Hypocrite. SOB. Child.<P>Of course, you should listen to JL and SKM (and all other great, levelheaded advice posted here). Consider me to be the raw voice of rage. <P>I am so sorry you have to live thru this. YOU DO NOT DESERVE THIS. You deserve better than what he is capable of giving you right now. I do hope the two of you can work things out. By no means is everything "Even Steven" now. Lots of work to be done and ground to be covered. Keep Plan A ing as long and as well as you can - but don't lose yourself in the shuffle, LIL.<P>Wish you the best,<P>Khyra

Khyra,<P>I think that if a spouse commits adultery as a "so there!" type of act, it is indeed atrocious; it shows a very small, petty, vengeful mind.<P>However, I do believe that in some cases if a WS is "out of the marriage" for so long that the OP becomes their only way of life, the BS might simply stop loving the WS and start wanting to find a love for their own. BS's get very lonely, especially if our spouse's EMR is all-consuming. It's tough to just put yourself on ice for a year, not knowing what your future will hold, and being deprived of all intimate contact of the opposite sex. I lived that life. Yes, for a year. <P>I was tempted. I was very tempted, and I had my opportunities, that's for sure. I wanted someone to love who would love me in return - and who was not cheating on me. Of course, I never acted on this. For one, I wasn't in love with anyone. But I always ask myself this: if someone who was darned close to Mr. Right had come along at the time H was having his prolonged EMR, would I have succumbed to having an affair myself?<P>I really cannot answer that question.<P>belld<BR>

LIL -<P>How are things going? I know you don't have acess to a computer on the weekends, but listen to what people are saying:<P>(1) You need to decide that your marriage is what you want;<P>(2) If the answer is yes, then you need to do whatever it is to try and save your marriage - whether it be Plan A, counseling, whatever;<P>(3) If SS4N doesn't want to go to counseling, you might want to try and get some just for yourself - it might be worth it at this point;<P>(4) No one is condoning the fact the SS4N got involved with another womad, but it has happened, and you - yourself - said that you couldn't blame him - but reread some of SS4N's posts - and you know which ones . It was less than two months ago that he was posting about how much he loved you and wanted your marriage to work - try to give him some time to sort out his feelings, too.<P>(5) Look at Momma's post again. . .(No offense Momma) but if she and her H can work out it even after affairs on both their parts and having a child by the OM - You have to have hope that your situation can work out too. You just have to be committed to doing everything YOU can - and wanting your marriage and SS4N - even though he's not sure about you right now - but wanting him even now is the first step.<P>So, sending this to the top. And, Momma, thanks for coming out of retirement . You have a lot of good things to share. Thanks, as always for providing your insight - even though I know it can be painful to relive all this stuff.

What you sow you reap.

For what it's worth..... <P>Your darling H does not feel you love him. The words "I love you" from your lips have counterfit value. He is not seeking revenge. He is seeking solice. He does not find solice with you. With you he finds pain and hurt.<P>This is what my husband said to me..... this is the ONLY reason I even tried after his betrayal...... "I will do whatever it takes, just tell me"...... and, do you know what?..... he did! I tested him more than once. He was humble and accepting of his responsibility.<P>Lost_in_love....... That's what I feel is missing in your posts.....<P>h u m i l i t y<P>..... for what it's worth... we are together today , many years after the affair.<P>I will pray for you. I will ask God to bring you the gift of humility. That is a beginning.<P>------------------<BR>~*~*Yesterday~*~*<BR>all my problems seemed so far away~*<p>[This message has been edited by Yesterday (edited November 19, 2000).]

Hi lil,<BR> I'm sorry the timing on this doesn't seem to have worked out for you. I know how much it hurts, and I'm trying desperately to hold on, just in caase she ever wants to come back and try with me. <P>It would probably not be too difficult for me to find someone to help ease my pain & make me feel better about myself, but that would probably kill any chance of us working this out, so I'm going to wait & just endure it as long as I can. <P>I hope you will wait for him if you can & try as hard as he did. Maybe he'll have a change of heart. Any chance this is a retaliatory affair?<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Sending this to the top. . .LIL are you still out there?

I wasn't going to post.....BUT NO!!!!!!!<P>IT WAS NOT A "RETALIATORY" AFFAIR!!!!! <P>I worked hard for a long time to save the marriage. She continued to fly to TX every other week on OM's dime. I finally decided I had had enough and knew she was planning on moving there anyway. I declared my intentions of divorce on this forum.<P>L_I_L NEVER made any attempt to reconcile until she was afraid I was out of the game. Her back up plan was moving forward. Her "Plan A" came with a lot of words, but I can not believe words anymore. Lasted less than 2 weeks. All the words to me AND the OM were BS for so long. I needed to see ACTIONS. Her no contact with OM lasted < a week. AND, her words to woo me back came with ...."I have a ticket to TX for Friday through After Thanksgiving". I had 2 frigging days, to "save" our marriage, or she was going to the OM!. I am sorry, she is talking about me being in the fog....sheesh!<P>Did I move on....yes.<P>Was it totally without regrets.....no.<P>Do I love L_I_L.....yes.<P>Do I believe she is sincere.......no.<P>I am 99.999% sure she is in TX right now. She convinced me we should take 7 days off from each other to consider what we want. I have not spoken to her since...nor have I been with my "OW". Y'all can say I had an affair too...yeah I did, technically. But L_I_L has not acted like my wife for the better part of a year, and she was gone and PLANNED to go for good, when I started mine. So am I wrong....probably. Shoot, If I had known an affair would have brought her back, I would have done it before she went physical with her internet affair. (just kidding)<P>Joel

Hi Joel,<P>It would seem that your statement of the timing is correct. She only posted on the 17th and hasn't responded since. <P>I am so sorry that things have come to this, but she has been warned by you and by many here that continuing the affair may well destroy her marriage. I guess she really doesn't believe it yet. <P>How are you doing? I cannot say that having an affair was the smartest thing for you to do. And I would strongly recommend that if your marriage ends in divorce you take plenty of time before getting into another serious relationship. That rebound effect rarely produces good results.<P>Someday, post and tell us how you are doing.<P>God Bless<P>JL