Hey, Max - <P>That is so true, there, pal. I'll bet you know first hand about that! Same goes to you for writing ignorant replies to posts. What a creep.<P>I thought we were here to support one another, not say damaging things. Oh well, I guess some people are better off simply being ignored.<P>Your buddy,<P>Khyra

Khyra - Down girl. Down. You're funny, you verbalize some of the things I really want to say sometimes, but just can't. We'd make a wonderful Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, lol!<P>Joel - I'm not going to come down on you for getting involved with someone else. But, re-read Just Learning's post. . .IF your marriage ends in divorce, you may want to take some time before you get involved with someone else. It sounds like the smart thing to do, but I know it's not easy.<P>LIL - Are you out there? What's going on? You don't have to answer it here, but please let me know if you're lurking. . .

"what you sow, you reap" can also be taken positively. That's part of what can make Plan A successful, you sow non-lovebusting behavior and hopefully reap another chance with your marriage.<P>I have no idea if Max meant it matter-of-factly, because it is a tenet of a lot of faiths--Christianity & the Golden Rule, Karma, Wiccan 3 fold return & the ever popular what goes around comes around all come to mind-- or if he meant it negatively or positively, but it is a good reminder that somewhere the cycle of madness has to be broken, giving good for evil. And when it comes to our marriages, doing it consistantly.<P>SS4N & LIL are clearly both in pain & their lives changing again. I'd like to see them keep their marriage out of the death spiral. Guard & I are living examples that things can get that bad (and worse)...and still come together again, but it takes work & careful intent for both partners...and when there are one or two OP involved it is messy, painful, and makes it hard for both marriage partners to give the trust of trying again.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

To quote Lonestar....."No News" <P>Well, this is it, our 1st "Real" holiday apart. I don't know what I feel. I guess I am just kind of numb. It looks like my Thanksgiving will be Louis Rich Turkey Dogs! Any MBer's in SC want to take in a hungry, hurt person today? Just kidding. As much as my situation stinks, I still have a lot to be thankful for. And even if L_I_L and I do not survive this hurdle, at least we still do love each other.<P>God Bless to all on this day of Thanks......<P>Joel

No real advice here but it just seems to me that all (most) WS's seem to think they're the only ones who get lonely and fed up. (my non-educated opinion).<BR>As a person on the recieving end of pain and adn being treated like a no-body, I can see why some people would need a "friend" to talk to. It just seems to me like the person be betrayed is the one that's always trying and being "patient" while the WS has their fun. I have never or will never have an A on my W. I would sooner leave and not drag her through the mud like so many do "to justify their action" so to speak.<BR>Khyra..I'm not to regular on this board but were you a WS? I get that impression from your comments about vengeful behaviour. <BR>I know from my own experience that the betrayed spouse feels lonelier and more pain than the WS can ever imagine.<BR>I do agree it's too bad when a BS does it to "get even" but too often it gets labeled a "get even" vengeful act. <BR>I can see the BS giving up and needing some-one to talk too. These are very delicate times for all involved, but, turning to some-one when you're hurting and and being told day after day that you mean nothing to some-one you love dearly, but that's wrong??? Forgive me I'm I'm a little (alot) bitter yet. I remember pouring out my heart to my W and all she'd say was "I'm sorry you feel that way".<BR>It's funny how we are EXPECTED to have a never ending supply of sympathy for the "WS".<BR>I'm sorry for being negative but this is from some-one who's there. My prayers are definately with you and I hope everything works out for you both.<BR>Tired and wiery<BR>Frustrated and invisible,<BR>Tinman<BR>

Tinman, I understand your feelings of anguish and undeserved hurt.<P>I, too, feel that some WS can feel they need all the sympathy in the world and for the BS to woo them back, plead and sacrifice, and all they do is let them live in limbo land. Then when the BS strikes back with either a revenge affair or solace affair, the BS is worse off than they, are creeps and whatever. I have been there when days on end I think about having an A to numb the rejection. I didn't because my WS came back kneeling at my feet and weeping and begging and cut off contact.<P>Even then, the hurts numb and the shock of betrayal is devastating. <P>I feel the sting of Khyra's hatred and rage at SS4N and any BS who falls into an A backlash. What a shock for SS4N to read this. I am sorry that it was assumed that SS4N did the wrong on LIL out of spite.<P>I would say, for the first time I ever posted - listen to Lor and JL, cut out the vindictiveness of some posts.

I have to agree with Tinman,<P>What are we Betrayed spouses, saints? I think not. We have needs for love and support too. After being rejected and told by the one you love that you have never had a good marriage, never been good to them, never been worth loving we are supposed to say yes, dear but I know you love me deep down and I will remain faithfull to our marriage till you remember that. And again they tell us that day will never come. <P>I really doubt that many affairs are revenge affairs, I would not have the self esteem to beleive that I could hurt my spouse by being with someone else. What would he care. But I do know I am vunerable to anyone who does not look at me with discgust, does not pull away from my touch like I have the plauge.<BR>If we can forgive our spouses for having an affair just because we were neglecting them and their needs, how can we not be forgiven for turning to someone when we have been even more beaten down? I am not saying it is right, I am not saying I want it to happen, but I think it should be understandable and forgiveable.<BR>Lora

Thanks Lori,<BR> I'm glad I'm not alone in the way I feel. At first I felt inadeqate in every way possible but now I know I'm not. I know in my heart I was there for my wife emotionally and every other way possible but she chose to ignore it and now uses it as an excuse. I threw in the towel a few days ago and guess what,,she's still here. The OM is known at here work as the slut of the company by all there..what does that make her? I feel alot of anger not only for the A but the way she made every-one in the house feel.<BR>She is now succeeding in making me look like the bad guy to my family (my children). They have no idea of the situation at hand. I try to shelter them but she drags the kids into it again. Like last night the kids went to her work and couldn't find her, zI asked her what time she started and she blew up (immediatly running to the phone) to call a co-worker to verify..not bad but she got the person from work to tell my daughter. Very STUPID!! But we "BS's" are supposed to be so patient.<BR>Well I told her I was finished with the whole thing. <P>Falling out of love very fast,<BR>Tinman.<BR>