Resilient<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited November 26, 2000).]

Dear Jo,<BR> I am sure you will find many people who are still here for you.You are not a bad person,you are human.I know the pain you have been thru.Sometimes I wish someone else would take the pain away too,but I am learning to trust God to heal me.<BR> Love and Prayers,Bethn

Jo, first of all, you are NOT a bad person. I think most of us here have had the same thoughts that you have. My H openly does not love me and it hurts so much, more than I can bear sometimes. If someone came along who paid attention to me and cared about me, I probably would have a hard time not doing the same thing. <P>Secondly, your thoughts and advice on this forum are missed tremendously. I have also wondered where you have been, and am very glad that you've come back. Please keep posting---we are here to help you get through this. We all need you!!!<P>My prayers are with you!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>Hello Everyone,<P>This man is so acceptive of me, he knows the entire sorted story (OCs, serial cheating, disease, abusive OW … the whole big fat years of a mess) .. he thinks I'm wonderful and not tainted or a leper. He thinks I'm a good person!!!!!!! And not as messed up as I perceive myself. He accepts me with my HUGE Steamer Trunk of emotional issues. This is huge for me, it means so much to me … I didn't think anyone would want me after all I've been thru.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay...Non-judgemental advice...right here!<P>Really, you shouldn't be too hard on yourself for this. You've merely given in to a temptation that I'm sure lots of us have felt. I've been tempted, too. Of course, its only been 4 months since D-day, so I can't even imagine what a year and a half would do! <P>So, you met someone who makes you feel good and you went for it. Is that wrong? Some would say that your marriage vows have already been broken, and they can't get any more broken by what you are doing. <P>If you want to save your marriage, I'd have to say you've taken a step on the wrong path. The only way to view this as a positive thing for your marriage is to hold out hope that perhaps, when your H realizes he has "competition," he will try to come back. <P>Now, on to the "emotional baggage" issue. I met my W when she was at the lowest point of her life, emotionally speaking. She had enough baggage to fill a cargo plane! The thing is, she never unloaded the baggage, she just put it away in a trunk for later use. You NEED to take care of your issues NOW, not later. Sure, this guy seems great because he's the first guy to treat you nice in a long time. Note, I said FIRST. Not Mr. Right, but Mr. Right Away!<P>See, I think the reason my M fell apart is because I was Mr. Right Away. I came into her life when she was at rock bottom, after years of abuse and infidelity. I picked her up, told her there was nothing wrong with her, built her self-esteem back up, etc. Just like this man is probably doing for you. The fact that I was so nice blinded her to the fact that I wasn't really what she was looking for in a man.<P>So I guess my advice is: Take a long look at this man, his reasons for pursuing you, your reasons for liking him, and how your current emotional state affects your thought processes. Are you involved with him simply because he accepts you for who you are? I would bet that this guy fills your biggest EN right now: The need to feel wanted and loved. Is he really something special, or could anyone (including your H) fill that need?<P>A "crash and burn" is a sure thing if you don't answer these questions.<P><BR>

{{{{{{{Jo}}}}}}<P>Missed you. You haven't let me down and I'm not dissappointed. <P>God Bless You on Your Journey,<BR>Enlightened

Well, you asked for opinions.<P>Here goes.<P>Jo, your H has been a grade-A, #1 first-class jerk. Or, as our (=gak=) future VP would say, "big-time." Girl, what you have put up with shouldn't happen to a dog.<P>I quite frankly have wondered why you put up with it this long.<P>There are some marriages that are salvageable. I'm not convinced yours is one of them. But I don't know you, so take this as worth exactly what you paid for it.<P>Be happy. You've fought the good fight.

Hi Resilient,<BR>You probably know I did last winter what you are doing. And, at the point you are at, it is an incredible thing to discover that someone doesn't see how wrecked you are by your spouse's infidelity, sees you as interesting, attractive, funny, etc. It is a bandaid, but when you are bleeding to death, a bandaid and someone to compress the wound seems pretty miraculous.<P>But...<P>CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!<P>(I'm not angry, but I'd like to use the red icon!)<P>Some people are very attracted to vulnerable people (you), they are themselves "white knights" or "savers"...others are just scum...charming, good-lookin', predatory scum. I got one that was a lot knight AND predator, but had no clue about the second part of the equation until I had no OM contact, reconciled with my H...and discovered the OM married someone else 6 weeks after his last declaration of love & marriage proposal for me (uh, I wasn't divorced, just in my 7th separation & D papers served, and I didn't answer his marriage proposals, classic redirection). When I talked to him last summer and discovered he was married, he told me he was "in no way over" me. Gack. Geez, what if I HAD finished the divorce and married him and he was telling prospect #2 he wasn't over her?<P>Sometimes I feel lucky it ended badly because there's no (ok, very little) idealistic fantasy left there. And there are others here, or who have been here on MB, who went through the same thing as their WS drug on and on through limbo or separation or divorce. There aren't a lot of happy endings with Betrayed finding someone new and that relationship succeeding. It takes time to heal, to be the kind of full partner that a new person needs. I found I was socking the OM with the baggage from my marriage, and he didn't deserve it, but he still told me I was perfect for him. His new wife is a widow without children...much better suited to him than I ever would have been...despite my "perfection".<P>So, that's my tale of woe. I can't encourage you in your continuation, nor can I condemn you. I can tell you that when my H finally did want to reconcile & I had this guy in my life, to finally get what I wanted--my marriage back--seemed like at the very least, poor timing, and I teetered further on a near crisis of faith. And now my H & I have dealt with 6 months of both of us each having WS & BS feelings/issues. And you know what one of my greatest regrets is? I can't say I stayed strong, like Chris or Sheba or Lostva or any of the others who didn't choose an errant path. But, like you, after 18 months of Plan A, I didn't much want to do that anymore either.<P>I know people (actually the OM was leading proponent of this line of thought) told me that I wasn't a WS because my WS H had left me...but personally having had that relationship & then reconciling with H, I FEEL like a WS, and there was withdrawal. Oddly enough, I saw him drive by my store today for the first time in a long time...and the old urge to call him immediately rose, to see how his life is (none of my danged business and I'm not going to do that) and I thought I'd conquered that. <P>Just be wise, Jo. Believe me, you can hurt worse than you have been, because new pain jumps right into the old, H-caused wound. <P>And, the other thing? If you've told this OM ALL the details...that stays out there, and when/if you break up...it becomes a story he can tell. I know I'm not too happy about that either, even though the OM & I don't seem to have many acquaintances in common, it isn't that big a city, he took a TAE KWON DO class with a woman that works with my H (not the co-worker OW, another one)--who was always talking about my H.<P>I'm just feeling a lot of worry for you, a real been there, done that. If you want to talk, and you know which side of this I'll take: speirsbk@aol.com<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Well Jo,<P>You've already heard my very un-MB opinion on this matter.<P>I think, hon, that you have been through the mill. You have given and given so much that there is not much of JO left...hope you know what I mean by that...self-esteem wise...not personality wise.<P>I know you would not take getting into another relationship lightly...and I know you have been honest with this new man. What more, Jo, can you ask of yourself. This man sees who you are, sees your worth, and sounds pretty damn crazy about you. I'll tell ya, if I were in your shoes...right or wrong...I'd have been going for it just to get my mind off of Steve.<P>Ok, so it is not right according to MB. You have done the research and know the chances of this relationship working out in the long run are not great. I guess the way you need to measure it, Jo, is...if it does end with him (the new guy) will you be in worse shape than you're in now? Does he have the capacity to hurt you?<P>Two wrongs will never make a right...this is true...you're married...this is true, so how do I justify this opinion without getting kicked off these boards forever? Jo, if Steve comes out of his mess and re-discovers how wonderful you are...you will be ok, because you have been honest and this man you are seeing knows you love your husband. If Steve moves on (sorry, I hate that term) you will be better for giving part of yourself to another person.<P>Gawd I'm rambling...hope I made some sense hon.<P>I called you last night...you must be the only person I know without an answering maching...LOL.<P>Now, stop beating yourself up...save that for OW.<P>allison

Non-judgemental advice coming...<P>If you're in a marriage and dealing with an affair, AND you've been "sucked dry" (or nearly so) by your Plan A effort, you...<P>Move to Plan B. <P>Plan B is a no-contact separation designed to protect you from the daily reminders of the ongoing affair, which can drain your lovebank faster than anything else. And in the Plan B "mission statement" is a clear admonition to NOT GET CLOSE TO ANYONE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.<P>And this is an example why.<P>Lor has said it best---there's the potential for lots more pain. Jo, everyone who's experiencing what you are has been through this. Chris has gone out C&W dancing and been tempted. Lor was tempted. I was tempted.<P>But following through on that temptation causes trouble. Lots of unnecessary complications.<P>It's going to be hard for you, but if you want to remain true to your marriage, you need to get back on the Plan B program. End all contact with this guy. Keep yourself isolated from your husband, until:<P>1. He comes back willing to work on the marriage.<P>2. You are ready for a divorce.<P>After you divorce and you've healed, then if you want to follow up with this guy, you'll be in a much better emotional state to do so. You've already outlined all the reasons this isn't a good idea; you just need help in following through with it. I'd suggest that you either call Steve (or Jenn), or find a close female friend to confide in, and to hold you accountable for ending this.<P>I'm sorry that you're hurting so bad, Jo. It's very hard to go through this.<P>

Hey Jo!<P>I have to get off line soon so I didn't read all of your post nor others.<P>Well, I don't call your relationship with someone is an affair.. well it's true you are married but that's only on the paper! Where is your H?? Maybe you are married legally but you don't have a married life at all..<BR>So I don't think it's bad you are seeing someone... Only the bad thing is.. the "reason" you are seeing this person. IF being with someone makes you feel good then go for it.. if you have doubts and feel bad seeing him, and if it's hard to break up with him, I know you are trying and please post here.. we are not gonna give you a hard time... we love you, Jo!<BR>And most of us know what you have been going through.<P>I feel the stuff I'm writing doesn't make sense much, but just know that do things what you feel ok for or what make you happy.<P>Hugs,<P>Meg<BR>

I would never think you were a bad person. It isn't that hard to "stay strong" when there is little temptation - I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of single men I have happened to meet through work or whatever in the last ten years, so all I have to do is just not go looking for them. But I can't say for sure if I would be looking at this differently if Gary Chapman had shown up at my door after Amy Grant left him for Vince Gill. <P>Like everyone else, I just worry that you will get hurt even worse. I agree with the others that it would have been better for the barn door to have remained shut - but the horse is gone now. I think the important thing now is evaluating the risk - obviously you will be hurt if you give up this guy; you may or may not be hurt even worse if it falls apart later. Since you don't have children, you don't have to worry about them getting attached and then losing again, or that they would be better off with two biological parents. I think the decision should be up to you. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited November 21, 2000).]

Jo.....Jo.....Jo..... (heavy sigh)<P>Remember when you were little and some kids used to "flick" ya? You know - they'd put their index finger and thumb together and the "FLICK" you with the index finger in the head or arm or something? Sort of a PING....that kinda hurt....well, not really hurt....more like it got your attention.<P>Well, I am wanting to wrap my arms around you and Hug you very tight....then headlock you and "noogie" the top of your head....followed by some good old fashioned "flicks"!!! LOL!!!! <BR>My brothers used to do that to me alot when trying to find out what was going on with me or to get something through to my brain .....guess it eased their being uncomfortable with dealing in emotions and showing love and concern. <P>Strangely enough, the memories of these childish antics bring a sense a warmth, love and closeness to my heart. The <BR>older brothers sharing their experiences and the wisdom of their own trials and errors with the "kid" sister!!! It was beautiful....even if somewhat slightly bruising!!! Hey, that must have been what made the messages sink in so well!!<BR>LOL!!!!!<P>Anyway, that's how I feel about all of us here......one big family of brothers and sisters who share their love, concern, experiences and learned wisdom.<P>We hold each other up when someone falters....we hug for comfort and strength....we share in the shedding of tears and then help to wipe them away by trying to create smiles and laughter instead. <P>We all came here pretty devastated, angry, scared, hurt, confused, lost, numb or completely emotionally paralized and utterly clueless....<P>We came for HELP........We came for HOPE......We came for KNOWLEDGE....We came for STRENGTH.....We came for SUPPORT.....We came to CHANGE....We came so we could get a hold of OUR LIVES!!!<P>Everyone is different....that's what makes this world so interesting. <P>I, personally, chose MB because it had a difinitive "plan of attack" for the hell I was in. It gave me guidelines for goals, showed me that I needed to do some serious self examination as well as marital reflection, aided me with jumpstarting my ignorant (as well as worn-out) brain into a once-again functioning muscle that would allow some forward motion for myself.<P>When I first found this place.....I printed out the ENTIRE site - EVERYTHING!!!! The Principles....the stories.....the questionaires....the posts that applied.....<P>I made TWO 3" BINDERS full of this stuff!!!! I studied it.....I worked at it all until I UNDERSTOOD it to the best of my ability. I put it into PRACTICE as directed. I BELIEVED IN IT!!!!<P>Maybe that is why I have been able to keep myself going forward with my emotions for the most part....maybe that is why I have gained the strength to have made it through this nightmare that has been my "life" for the last four years. <P>I have also been open-minded to other "ways" such as Divorcebusters, etc...and have complimented MB with it at times.<BR>Mostly whenever it "fit" with a particular situation......<P>I took this wonderful Knowledge and molded it into my very existance. <P>The first obstacle (and the longest lasting) is FEAR!!!! Even now, I have moments when the "fear" can take over and stop me from doing what I know I should.....or could.....to push me towards growing into the ME that I want to be. I may falter when that fear hits, but I will inevitably work it through and conquer it.....at least for that moment in time.<P>You have a lot of fears going on Jo. I am not sure which ones are in the forefront for you......I think that you need to take a really good look at them though. Without facing them (such as your avoidance tendencies, self esteem issues, etc.) you cannot "move forward"!!!! <P>With getting "boosts" from others (such as this man) you are allowing them to control how you feel about you!! That could get pretty crazy don't you think? You may fool yourself into thinking that you are "moving forward with your life" - but you really aren't!!!! That's when you might as well take out stock in Samsonite cuz you are going to be hauling around alot of "baggage"!!!!<P>What I have observed....and this is strictly my own opinion....is that their are four paths to be followed:<P>1) Learn, put into practice and grow from the knowledge you are presented with throughout your life.<P>2) Retain a sense of low self-esteem and change to fit the people and/or situations encountered throughout life.<P>3) Let "FEARS" control your life.<P>4) Just go with self absorbed feelings of pleasure/happiness without regard for others or even your own true benefit. It's easier (lazy factor?) and more of a high!!!!<P>You do have choices here JO.....and you are ONE OF THE LUCKY ones to have found some knowledge about what is going on and what you need to do......<P>PLEASE don't throw that away Jo.........please?<P>Before I end this with HUGS....I will FLICK you one more time (PING) - just to drive home the point that NONE OF US ARE BAD!!!!! We sometimes choose things that are "bad" FOR US!!!!!<P>I (as your loving sister) want you to benefit from my experiences....been there/done that!!!! YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THERE!!!!! <P>So, turn around.....take a good strong hold on yourself and rethink your direction abit. YOU KNOW what you TRULY need for yourself.....I really don't think that you have addressed that "fear" of getting yourself there yet.<P>BIG, BIG HUGS and MUCH LOVE and PRAYERS for you.....as always,<P>Sheba<P>

Dear Resilient,<P>I am often in a bad place when I think of all the eligible men who pays me attention wherever I go, even the handsome wealthy groom at a wedding banquet. I think about how I am slaving away at a loveless marriage and I am so tempted to just have revenge. You just needed the touch of a caring man.<P>I really want you to put on 'shrewd and realistic' glasses this time and LOVE yourself first before you can love another. My first WS, an abused orphan who was abusive to me, left me with even poorer instincts about men. Anyone with some ounce of gentleness was better and good enough for me.<P>I know it is very hard to be in limbo and I would think that it would be better to meet your H and discussed your future and let him know that if he is not committed and coming back full-time, you will be looking to start a new life without worrying about him. I feel that your H may just drag on until someone makes the decision for him. What has happened is reality that you will not be able to wait for your H indefinitely. You have already begun to feel bad about yourself and you are feeling worse inside than out with regards to self respect and complicates the situation.<P>Please seek a solution by meeting your H and discussing the marriage, not live in trepidation about what you are doing, and piling on the self-condemnation, you are too valuable a person to live in such a soap opera (?).<P>May God heal you and make you whole<BR>love<BR>weep

Dear Resilient:<P>Your husband has effectively abandoned you, except that he hasn't had the guts to cut things off finally and legally. He's broken your marriage contract through the years time and again. He's shamed you by having children with other women. He's been disrespectful and cruel.<BR>He's been playing games with your head and your life and your heart.<P><BR>"Back some time ago I mentioned in a post that I was somewhat seeing someone … well now I am seeing someone. I have been pretty steady for about 2 mos."<P>You've responded to the very normal human need for love and contact, which you don't have from your H. He has betrayed your marriage. Not everyone can go on for a lifetime without love and romance. Stop beating yourself up. You're not a hypocrite. Getting involved with someone else after all you've been through may just be the final clue that your marriage is dead and that it's time for you to get on with life.<P><BR>"I know this thing I'm doing is just as bad as what my H is doing," Say what? You aren't living together with your H, divorce is in the air. He can't decide who he loves.<P>It's nowhere near the same as what he's doing.<P>" I also know this man is a band-aide and a diversion from me having to face the pain and hurt of what real life holds for me <a possible D>. But I can't or won't make myself end it. I truly tried twice to end it, without success."<P>Stop beating yourself up. You're dating someone who makes you happy.<P>"Having someone cherish you and be there for you is an incredibly good feeling …. Sound familiar??? " That is exactly what your H has failed to do, after all the chances you gave him. That's what we promise to do when we get married. Hubby didn't. <P>You're not dead, not a saint, an angel etc. You're alive. God didn't intend us to suffer. (I have this on good authority. My parish priest, when I asked him "What does God want for me?" said "He wants you to be happy.")<P>The commandments and His laws, I believe, are intended to keep us on a path that will bring us TRUE happiness; they are wisdom that takes into account all human frailties.<P>Don't make future hurt a self-fulfilling prophesy. You're not a betrayer. You are a wonderful person, and this man can see that.<P>Acceptance is sincere love.<P> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bellevue:<BR>[B]Dear Resilient:<BR>Your husband has effectively abandoned you, except that he hasn't had the guts to cut things off finally and legally. He's broken your marriage contract through the years time and again. He's shamed you by having children with other women. He's been disrespectful and cruel.<BR>He's been playing games with your head, your health,your life and your heart.<P>"Back some time ago I mentioned in a post that I was somewhat seeing someone … well now I am seeing someone. I have been pretty steady for about 2 mos."<P>You've responded to the very normal human need for love and contact, which you don't have from your H. He has betrayed and defiled your marriage. Not everyone can go on for a lifetime without love and romance. Stop beating yourself up. You're not a hypocrite. Getting involved with someone else after all you've been through may just be the final clue that your marriage is dead and that it's time for you to get on with life.<P>"I know this thing I'm doing is just as bad as what my H is doing," <P>Say what? You aren't even living together with your H, divorce is in the air. Now it's just a matter of paperwork and a court appearance. Hubby can't decide who he loves.<P>Your dating is nowhere near the same as what he's doing. <P>" I also know this man is a band-aide and a diversion from me having to face the pain and hurt of what real life holds for me <a possible D>. But I can't or won't make myself end it. I truly tried twice to end it, without success."<P>Stop beating yourself up. You're dating someone who makes you happy.<P>"Having someone cherish you and be there for you is an incredibly good feeling …. Sound familiar??? " <P>That is exactly what your H has failed to do, after all the chances you gave him. That's what we promise to do when we get married. Hubby didn't keep his end of the bargain. <P>You're not dead, not a saint, an angel etc. You're alive. God didn't intend us to suffer. (I have this on good authority. My parish priest, when I asked him "What does God want for me?" said "He wants you to be happy.")<P>The commandments and His laws, I believe, are intended to keep us on a path that will bring us TRUE happiness; they are wisdom that takes into account all human frailties. Your H didn't love you as himself when he lied to you, cheated on you, when he was untrustworthy. If you turn things around and he had to forgive the exact same things that you did time and again, would he be able to? <P>Don't make future hurt a self-fulfilling prophesy. You're not a betrayer. You are a wonderful person, and this man can see that.<P>The man accepts you. Enjoy yourself. Keep coming here. <P> <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Jo ... funny, I half expected to see MY name listed here amongst the long time Plan A'ers who fell off the wagon at least once. Last spring I suddenly "opened my eyes" and decided that I "was done" and it was ONLY because I had gotten involved with someone. I took off my wedding band and talked about divorce. I was ready to "move on." However, it was a brief involvement and ended badly - hurtfully. Funny thing about it is that I realized after it was over that I truly did still love my husband - and that I wanted him back more than ever. Some will argue that if the involvement had not ended the way it did, I wouldn't have gone back to wanting my marriage. And that might be true - but I'm not going to find out.<P>It's a fine line we walk, and what direction the line goes in all depends on what our ultimate goals are and what path we want to take to reach them (yes, it's horrible grammar, but I'm sure you get the point). Think of the stories the BS's here tell about the WS's - how the WS says "he doesn't love me anymore - hasn't for the last 10 years" and other equally painful things. Of course moving on to someone new is tempting and feels good. If that is your ultimate goal, then move forward with your divorce yourself. Don't be afraid if that is what you want. If that is NOT what you want, then ask yourself if you are being fair to this other man.<P>The final call must be yours. You are the one who has to live with YOU. I don't, K doesn't, Chris doesn't ... nobody but you. If you are ready to move on, then take the steps you need need to take. If you are not, then be fair, and do what is right.<P>No one will condemn you (unless the person you are seeing is MARRIED !! JUST JOKING!!!).<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Ok Jo....where are you?<P>Watcha thinkin'?<P>We are waiting........<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS.....HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!

Resilient<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited November 26, 2000).]

Jeez, Jo, does it ever end for you? And darn it, didn't I already tell you to STOP beating yourself up? Your H is an idiot if he ends up divorcing you for that sharpei puppy-lookin' trampy ol' hag!<P>You're human, and you've been to hell and back for the past year and a half. You meet a nice, young, Southern gentleman (I know this is totally inappropriate for the MB site, but I have to say it - you go girl! ) who is nice and fulfills needs that, let's face it, your H hasn't met in a LONG time. Steve hasn't been there for you, he's not showing any sign of making up his mind, you would have to be superhuman to put up with much more.<P>I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit as I write this -- you once said that what really turned your H to Alpo (my personal new nickname for her, if that's okay. I think she looks like a sharpei puppy, hence the name ALPO!) was that she slept with another man and he found out. He sounds kinda possessive that way. Does he know about your new guy? I have a feeling that if he did, he'd be paying you a LOT more attention. I think that he is doing whatever he wants because he knows that you'll always be there for him, no matter what. Otherwise, why would he keep in contact? I think if he realized what he had to lose, it would wake him up.<P>Seriously hon, whether it's with Steve or with this new guy, I wish you happiness. You truly deserve it. If you want a cup of coffee or a drink (on me ), I'm going to be in Seattle a lot in the next month Christmas shopping (I'll be the one with the 20 shopping bags at Bel-Square! ), and I'd be happy to talk to you. And if I ever run into your H on the karaoke scene, I won't say who I am or anything, but I'll be sure to sing "You're So Vain" one time for you as an inside joke. Good luck, hon!

Res<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited November 26, 2000).]