I'm just curious, are WS's predispositioned to being pathological liars (which then leads them to having affairs), or do they become pathological liars after becoming WS's (so as to cover up the affair)?<P>I never thought of my W as being a liar; I always respected her with all my heart. However, the quantity of her lies I have observed during the last six months (while she was involved in an A) is mindboggling. What's worse, even after confronting her with the evidence, and her promises to cut it off, she continued to lie. Not just about the fact that she continued the A (which was to be expected), but also about her daily activities, her schedule, etc. Even stupid little things that she could have been perfectly honest about.<P>I told her a number of times that the worst thing for me was not the A, but the associated life of lies. Yet she continues to lie. I suppose she is doing it to "protect" me, but since I see the lies, she might as well stab me in the heart with every lie. How can I get her to stop lying? My trust is already pretty much gone; once my respect for her goes as well, I don't know what there will be left to love about her...<P>I guess this ended up being more of a vent, but how can you make any attempt at recovery (which she proclaims she is attempting) while you lie 10 times a day...???<P>Thanks!<P>AGG

goodguy,<P>I thought my spouse was the most honest person on the face of the planet. brutally honest. The when I found out about the A, I realized what a skilled liar he had become. I don't think he was a liar before the A. The situation dictated the need for lies. Without those he could not have had the A. When It all came out, he still lied about parts of it. It wasn't until he had severed all contact w/OW that he stopped lying about things.<P>Lying is a symptom of the A, which is a symptom of our spouses not having their needs met. Can that be justified? Nope, but that's just the nature of the beast.<P>If she has cut off contact with OM there should be no reason to lie. Try going over Harley's principles with her. Once you guys start meeting eachothers needs and stop love busting, your trust and respect will be restored. We don't always respect or like our spouses but its how we choose to deal with those feelings that define our relationship and who we are. <BR>Don't give up. If she is saying that she wants to work on things, give it some time. It know that it feels like it takes a long time to restore trust and love and that it can be frustrating. Just keep looking to the future and how strong your relationship will be after following the MB principles.<p>[This message has been edited by cleopatra (edited November 21, 2000).]

AGoodGuy,<P>I've been thinking about writing a post about my WS level of lies, because somehow I look at it and wonder if she is worse than the average WS for lies. Like you said, my wife's amount of lies is mind boggling. I too, wonder which came first. I personally think the A just requires lying.<P>During the core of her affair (been going for at least 3 months now, but EA started about 6 months ago), she would have lies each day about what she was doing, who was there, where she was, makes up fake appointments to get away, lies at work, spends money and tries to cover it up, bought gifts for people but said someone else paid for it, got an amazing number of "free" movie passes, sports passes, accommodations, free meals....all FREE! There is a free lunch after all. Nothing ever required money????? She should write a book....101 Ways to Get Free Stuff. OK, I'm getting off track. But the stories I have heard are amazing. Coming home at 3AM, "uuhhhh, [OM] lets me sleep in his spare room because he knows it is hard at home". Funny thing, she lies to her new set of moronic friends, OM (one of the gang), her family, doesn't talk to old friends, and finally obviously lies to herself.<P>Sorry this got kind of long. Just wanted to fully agree with your thoughts and feelings. I want the old her back, and even though I obviously have little trust now, I just try and put it aside and assume that if she ever got out of the fog, she'd have to become honest. But who knows...might try and get away with never coming clean, assuming fog clears. I just rely on SAA being of help if recovery time ever arrives.<P>Regarding your situation, like cleopatra said, give it time. If she is working on it, at least that is progress. Hopefully contact is cut off with OM, but maybe withdrawal causes further lying...hopefully that ends soon.<P>Interesting post....good luck.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited November 21, 2000).]

Yep, it's their weird way of protecting us, and themselves.<P>Damn it, my 13yo just told me what he wants for Christmas...his dad home and happy. Ok, back on track...gulp.<P>They become master liars...my H always stretched the truth, I never said much as I didn't know he was such a mess. When does the lying become pathalogical I wonder...kinda like the chicken/egg question I guess. <P>I've discovered, as you guys have, that the lying is so much worse than any other part of this...and you'll see couples in recovery pretty easily get over the physical aspects of the affair, but the trust...boy that's a tough one to restore. Seems to come last.<P>I just know if I ever get into another relationship that honesty will always be my #1 need...but how do you know? Will we ever be able to trust anyone again? Man, one of these days I hope I'll have more answers than I have questions...does not seem to be happening yet.<P>If you can, just let it roll. They will say anything to deflect what they are doing...anything! The sad part is, we are dying to believe what they are saying. Stay on your guard, throw out about half of everthing they say, love the heck out of 'em, they need it.<P>allison<P>allison

Thought I'd add a take on the lying thing...<P>For walk-away-wives...<BR>...the lies can also be... because they want to distance themselves from the faithful spouse(FS).<P>They think they are protecting the FS by "making it clear there is no chance for recovery"... ughhhhhh.<P>Just another perspective.<P> <P>Jim

AGoodGuy - which I believe you are - Like Rick has written in the past, the WSs all seem to have the lead role in the same movie. The level and extent of deception seems universal. I think my wife's lying came as a result of the affair - because she was so poor at it. She tried to pass off things that most children wouldn't believe. Thus, I don't think she was a life-long lier previously - if she had been, she would have been more practiced.<P>If she is truly is trying to recover (could be a lie), try to hang on. Maybe the lies have to decay slowly - I don't know. It may be worth another post to former WSs.<P>WAT

Do you suppose the lies are also to themselves. I really think my H didn't believe that he was actually doing what he was, so continued to lie...until he couldn't because the OP became pregnant.<P>S.Harley says they live on top of a bubble...and in my H;'s case an elephant is standing in the corner and it's going to get bigger and bigger. <P>Currently it seems my h is still in denial. He appears to be living two lives... which one is real...??? I'm afraid the bubble is going to burst and splatter onto everyone once the baby is born!!!

AGoodGuy<P>I feel that I have to reply to your post as I am experiencing exactly the same thoughts as yourself.<P>I have/had always thought of my W as the most honest person I have ever met, but the completely laughable lies that now spill from her lips are incredible.<P>I see exactly the same things, a complete denial of the affair (I have copies of "love" Emails that I have shown her), lying about daily whereabouts and activities through to silly pointless lies where the truth would hurt no more than the lie.<P>The strange thing is that I have recently been talking to the H of my W's best friend who has told me (in confidence) a few things that his W knows about my W that I don't even know. These are things relating to her past history when she was growing up that she has never even mentioned to me in the 10 years that we have been together)<P>Apparently there is an "in-joke" amongst her close friends regarding her ability to give each of them a different version of events over trivial matters e.g. a recent car accident. <P>It is strange that I have never seen that in her - it's probably because, as spouses, we are too close and trust everything that we are told by the one we love the most.<P>As for your question, if you'd have raised it 3 or 4 weeks ago I would have said that the A turns them into liars, but now I'm not so sure.<P>I am nowhere near the recovery stage yet, I am still "waiting" to be noticed and/or the A to finish, but I can already predict that if I am lucky to be given a shot at recovery, the hardest aspect of forgiveness won't be the "images" or thoughts of W and OM but the constant lies that have been told to me.<P>Best of luck<P><BR>HarryHat

Dear GoodGuy<P>Always chicken before the egg - you need the chicken to hatch the egg.<P>If there weren't the selfishness and the ability to DECEIVE, there wouldn't be the A. Afs are acts of deception, and to lie to 'protect' the spouse can be a cover-up or a consequence of the adultery or both. Unless the marriage is already dead and gone, then there is no need to lie. So, in your case, I believe that your W is still in a fog; doesn't want to face the issues if you both have to start discussions.<P>Lies is a huge part of the A, whether in words or deeds or just being. It is one of the most hurtful aspects of the A when the WS becomes the potential bad person than the potential good person. I bury my head in the sand of numbness when I see the incredible lies I lived through - including lying prayers - "God keep us faithful to each other as always". Can you imagine the shock when the A was exposed in all its tainted glory. A good chicken doesn't lay bad eggs. Got to be the chicken that is bad. But there is hope in Jesus if there is fear in God. I have come to the point where I commit my WS to God and ask that God's will be done in his life, and pray for hedges of protection around my marriage and WS so that no lover gets to him and vice versa.<P>Please go for individual as well as joint counselling.<P>God bless you<BR>take care<BR>weep

I don't know about the chicken and the egg thing. I do know that I was not a pathological liar before the affair. And in fact, it was the lies, the guilt and the deception that prompted me to confide in my H about the affair. I always us the word confess, but my H likes the word confide. He didn't know anything was wrong until I told him about the affair. So, yes, I guess I was a pretty good liar during the affair.<P>I don't think I was a horrible, nasty person or "bad chicken" before the affair. I don't know why it happened, why I couldn't show self-control - I have taken responsibility for my actions and am accountable to my H and God. I have asked for forgiveness and believe that I am forgiven. Christians aren't perfect - just forgiven.<P>I don't think all pathological liars are adulterers, but I do think that adulterers - like myself have lied, do lie, or will lie. But that doesn't mean that - for some people - it doesn't eat them up inside (like me). It also doesn't mean that a person - who has been doing everything wrong - cannot suddenly do the right thing. <P>I have never considered myself a pathological liar, though, and definitely not a "bad chicken." I'm just a little chicken who got lost in the hen house or something. I'm kind of like WAT's wife - I was never really good at lying, but I avoided the truth a lot during the affair.

Hi Cleopatra, Rick, Allison, Jim, WAT, tootrusting, HarryHat, and weep!<P>Thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate the thoughts, and it never fails to amaze me how most of us seem to be married to the same person, and are going through the same thing every day...<P>I understand that lies and affairs go hand in hand, but my question goes beyond that. I'm trying to understand if there is a predisposition for people having affairs to be liars to begin with, or if the lies come purely as a result of an affair. Again, I understand that a WS would lie to cover up the affair. That's par for the course. But why do they also start lying about completely irrelevant things, like what movie they went to see (literally)? As someone else suggested, I'm beginning to wonder if I was always too trusting of my W (great name, tootrusting!), and now that I've seen another side of her and have learned to snoop a little more (sad, I know), that now I see her for what she really is? It's so pathetic, it'd be funny if it didn't hurt so much.<P>SKM, <BR>I've been reading your posts for a long time, and I'm glad you chimed in here. Yes, I think you are not a "bad chicken", and this is supported by the fact that you did in fact voluntarily confess (confide) to your H. If my W had done that, I would have felt much better. But she didn't. Not the first time. Not the second time. Never. So I think your answer tends to indicate that people are either basically honest or dishonest to begin with. Being an honest person, you found the guts to confess about your A, and my guess is that made your recovery 100 times easier. However, the habitual liars who have to be caught in their lies (e.g my W) make me wonder if perhaps they're wired differently; certainly the recovery is greatly hindered by the lies.<P>Thanks again, everyone; have a great Thanksgiving!<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited November 22, 2000).]

Oh yeah, one more point.<P>I guess what really bothers me is the concept they teach you when you're on a jury; that if you suspect that a witness lied about something, you may assume that they lied about <B>everything</B>. So, if that's so, how do I know where my W's lies stop? (not the things I can check, such as phone contact, but more heavy things, such as her saying that she is trying to work on the marriage, that she and the OM have no plans for the future together, etc). How do I know that he is not currently going through a divorce, and my W is just biding her time? I'd hate to be such a fool... <P>AGG

Yup - you don't know.<P>WAT

Good Guy,<P>That was my issue. H is a conditional liar - meaning, he only lies when he's trying to get away with something that he shouldn't, or when he's trying to avoid being called to the carpet for something he did wrong. I've learned to know where the lies are. I read a great book called, "Never Be Lied To Again," and it is FABULOUS. The author trained FBI agents and police in interrogation techniques. He explains how to tell when a liar is lying by noticing body language, tone of voice, the look in their eyes, which direction their eyes roll when they're "thinking of a lie" to tell, and other hints. It gives the seven silver bullets to dispel a lie right after you've heard it. I put the techniques in the book to use, and that is how I got H to tell the truth.<P>This book really works. It's been my savior. Now I know when H is lying and when he is not. He's not been lying to me lately.<P>belld

GoodGuy-<P>Recently had a thread about honesty and found that there was some of both types of WS's. MANY felt that WS's were generally honest people and lied only about the affair. Others, like myself, have spouses who are dishonest, stretch the truth, exaggerate the facts, etc. in general.<P>Perhaps the only correlation one could draw is that the generally "dishonest" person may find it easier to tell the affair lies as they are just more skilled at lieing. And as betrayed spouses of the "dishonest", we may have just been "too trusting". <P>Just a thought.<P>Enlightened

Dear SKM,<P>I am extrapolating from people I know who are WS. My mother was a WS and she was faithful through most of the twenty or so years before the A. To us, she lacked the qualities that my father had. My father was by far - although my mother is considered a beauty with a voluptuous figure - the better looking and the one with the regal bearing. My father was pursued constantly by women till after he retired but he was able to flee from temptation and exercise strong principles in the face of temptation and even revenge. <P>Both my H were WS and when I reflect on their dispositions, I realised that they were selfish (after they had admmitted this trait) and were quite good liars who had little equanimity with telling whatever to get them the right response.<P>I don't know what went wrong in your case or your story but I certainly didn't think about SKM when I wrote this. Even as I wrote that post, I was sad to have to state what I feel is a lack of discipline and character of most WS. There is always that small percentage of exceptions and from what I have read of some of your posts since I joined MB, you are one of those WS who have totally gone all out to help the BS make some sense of their situations and I am sure that many have benefitted from your generous advice.<P>I am by no means holier than thou. Everyday, I struggle with wanting to be WS so as to exact revenge on my WS. If not in deed, than in thought. I escape and fantasise vengence. It is horrible to be in such a place and I hope to be free from such a messy mind soon. Today, I stood at the balcony thinking about my baby and how I would want to decorate the room and I was overcome with joy at the prospect of the future. This is the first time I a tinge of happiness at the future, and I thought about you and I want to write this just in case my post spoilt your day.<P>SKM, I feel your humanity through my 15" and I respect your strength in helping others despite often reading about stuff that could make you feel bad and hurt.<P>God bless you<BR>weep<P>

I always thought my H was so honest. He though he was too, think that is one of things that has hurt him the most, is that he lost his good reputation, in business, (but his co workers think he is a nicer person with the OW, she works there too) & in our church, our friends, his family, etc.<P>He still lies to me about everything. I don't know what he is trying to do anymore. I don't trust him. But the worst is I don't trust anyone. <P>Our teenage son did something really stupid before we move to Singapore & because of that & his dad's repeated lying I question him about everything. He doesn't understand why I don't believe him, because even though he knows about his D's A, he doesn't know how much his D has lied to me. So I keep hurting him, I finally told him tonight, that when he has teenagers he will understand, how hard it is to let them go out, & just to let them go period. <P>Sorry think I got off topic.

Dear SKM,<P>I am extrapolating from people I know who are WS. My mother was a WS and she was faithful through most of the twenty or so years before the A. To us, she lacked the qualities that my father had. My father was by far - although my mother is considered a beauty with a voluptuous figure - the better looking and the one with the regal bearing. My father was pursued constantly by women till after he retired but he was able to flee from temptation and exercise strong principles in the face of temptation and even revenge. <P>Both my H were WS and when I reflect on their dispositions, I realised that they were selfish (after they had admmitted this trait) and were quite good liars who had little equanimity with telling whatever to get them the right response.<P>I don't know what went wrong in your case or your story but I certainly didn't think about SKM when I wrote this. Even as I wrote that post, I was sad to have to state what I feel is a lack of discipline and character of most WS. There is always that small percentage of exceptions and from what I have read of some of your posts since I joined MB, you are one of those WS who have totally gone all out to help the BS make some sense of their situations and I am sure that many have benefitted from your generous advice.<P>I am by no means holier than thou. Everyday, I struggle with wanting to be WS so as to exact revenge on my WS. If not in deed, than in thought. I escape and fantasise vengence. It is horrible to be in such a place and I hope to be free from such a messy mind soon. Today, I stood at the balcony thinking about my baby and how I would want to decorate the room and I was overcome with joy at the prospect of the future. This is the first time I a tinge of happiness at the future, and I thought about you and I want to write this just in case my post spoilt your day.<P>SKM, I feel your humanity through my 15" and I respect your strength in helping others despite often reading about stuff that could make you feel bad and hurt.<P>God bless you<BR>weep<P>

Weep -<P>Hey, you didn't say anything that I don't already know - so you didn't offend me at all - just made me think a little bit - sometimes that can be a good thing !<P>Actually, through this whole mess, I have called myself a hundred different names ranging from slut/whore to loser and low-life. But, I thought it was kind of funny, in a warped kind of way - that I never called myself a "bad chicken." In a way, it was kind of funny to me. <P>So, don't worry about upsetting me. I was and probably still am a very selfish person. Maybe I need more attention than a "normal" person, maybe I lack self-esteem -I guess my only point was that I don't think it's just being a pathological liar - or even having an "abnormal" tendency to lie - would make you more apt to be an adulterer. <P>You're right, though, I do think there are some qualities - even though I would have never admitted them before the affair - that make a person more pre-disposed to having an affair - or just giving in to temptation of any sort - not just temptations of the flesh.<P>To me, I grew up with good moral values - and for that I am forever grateful to my parents. I did know right from wrong. Some people don't even have that basic knowledge -therefore, I think it could be easier for those people just to continue to do the wrong thing out of ignorance.<P>In my situation, I think there are several things that made me vulernable to having an affair - for me, the greatest one was - even though I went to church, I noticed that I relied less on God. In my relationship with God, there developed a gap (a big gap). So, when temptation came my way - I didn't have any self-control. That was another quality I lacked - self-control. I always over-indulged in everything - food, sports whatever.<P>I had problems saying no - even though I knew the affair was wrong. For me, I lacked - not necessarily the morals and values part - but the confidence to rely on those values - if that makes sense. So, to me, I guess, in my situation - I was not perfect before the affair - but I wasn't a monster either. I was, I thought, just normal.<P>Whether it be to have an affair, to exact revenge on someone, to hold a grudge, to gossip - whatever the temptation - I think where I falied was in exhibiting self-control - for whatever reason (lack of confidence, lack of self-esteem). Lying for me, I guess was an act - not an inherent trait. The lies, again would flow freely and often, because, again I couldn't show self-control.<P>You're right, too. Temptation is all around us. God doesn't direct us to sin - to give in to temptation - but he did give us the gift to fight temptation - I just didn't use it. In a way, I think you are right - there was a lack of discipline (self-control) and character in my case. I just don't think it came from the act of lying. Even though I don't want to admit it, this is the truth - for far too long, I let the ways of the material world influence me - and that's where I think this gap in my relationship with God - while it may have been small at one point - just kind of grew. Temptation to do the wrong thing - even though I think it has always been there - came when I was my weakest - spiritually and emotionally.<P>So, I guess, in my situation, I don't think I was always a "bad chicken" (I love saying that so much more than the other words) - I just didn't rely on God - or use him as my compass - I tried to steer the ship myself and ended up crashing on the rocks. If nothing else, this experience has brought me closer to God, and spiritually, I think I have grown more through this experience than I have in 30 years of being a Christian.<P>I am in no way glad that this happened, but I am very thankful that I have my faith - living and guiding faith - back. Don't worry about offending me - I try to stay on this website not to defend my character (I know it's in a shambles) but I stay on this site so I can stop focusing on myself and try to help where I can. I am just a sinner, and I accept that, it has humbled me before God and my fellow man. But, I think if I allow that to govern my life in a negative way, well, I guess I would have given in again.<P>Sometimes, I know peope have to get things off their chest. It's okay to be angry, but I guess I just like to show people, well, that I am human. Just like all of the other WSs, I make mistakes - horrible ones at that. I don't want to be pitied, but I do want to show that I still have a smidgen of value - if not here than to God. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but in some odd way, I am starting to show true compassion, selflessness instead of selfishness - self control. <P>Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I am not hurt. I think everyone's thoughts and opinions are valuable and are formed on the basis of their life experiences. I think it's important that you share your experiences - in all its truthfulness. You didn't spoil my day at all. I actually kind of like the "bad chicken" analogy. I don't know alot about chickens - but sometimes, I think, good chickens CAN lay bad eggs - but that doesn't mean that for one bad egg you throw out the chicken. It was just one bad egg - and the chicken can make good eggs again. Take care and God bless you too.