Cleo - in your reply to my other post, you said that your spouse had concluded that your marriage wasn't worth saving.<P>How bad was your marriage really for your spouse to make that conclusion? Looking for a comparison here.<P>This is my struggle, because our marriage was on ice for so long. We were great parents<BR>together and appeared the perfect, succesful couple, but there was nothing inside. To<BR>repair it I think it will take hard work on just a couple ENs and the rest will fall in place in time - but it probably looks like a lost cause to her right now.<P>Thanks,<BR>WAT

WAT,<P>Unfortunately it is just me replying (what else is new). There always seems to be something that I want to throw into the fire.<P>I'm probably repeating things I've said already. My wife has claimed since she initiated our "virtual separation" in June that our marriage was never right, our age difference renders our marriage unfixable, we are too different, she has been unhappy for at least a year, cried at least twice a week throughout that time. Also, "people don't change" - referring to the prospect of us working things out. People don't change? What the heck did she do?<P>Our problems were gradual, but mainly was lack of affection between us, no recreational companionship, and this led to a lack of conversation. So near the end, looking back it was bad. Lack of ENs being met either way. Maybe yours was bad for longer, from what you say, but on the flip side, you two have a history together, went through one of lifes most tragic (I'd say it is the most tragic) events, losing a child. No one else can ever fill your spot as the one that went through this with her and understands it intimately. I don't have the right words there, but you know what I mean.<P>It seems that no matter how long a WS was unhappy for, they magnify it anyway, like mine is doing, so it is hard to say how long it was really perceived as bad enough to end the marriage. One thing is for sure, when they put our EN fulfilling on the scale with the OMs, we lose right now, so as long as the scale is tipped too far the other way, they'll see us as inadequate.<P>I would try and focus on what to do now rather than the fear that it was too bad for too long. If people can be apart and married to someone else for several years, then end up back together (which I've read about), then there is hope for guys like you and I. But I understand your fear...I do have the same one too, although my marriage was only 6 years.

Rick - yup, I was disappointed you weren't Cleo, but after reading you reply, thanks. I've often wondered if there's a limit beyond which a marrriage can't recover after an affair, and I guess it's pretty much variable. As you recognize, we went thru an ordeal that cannot be matched, although an affair comes close, and maybe that will be something that finally brings us together since I'm convinced part of the reason for her affair is related to this crisis (believe it or not, OM was a pallbearer!). But the opposite could also be true, that she needs to escape me to escape the loss of our son. Who knows. Definitely a moving part not frequently discussed.<P>Hope your kids are doing OK. I think they'll handle it better than you.<P>WAT

WAT,<P>My H and I got married while we were still in college. We had problems right from the start and have always struggled. Many years we just coexisted. About 3 years ago, he said he was done and wouldn't live this way anymore. He was not having A at that time. We went to a counsellor but he maintained the entire year that he did not know if he wanted to be in the marriage. I felt though that after counseling things had become better and I had made some personal changes that I felt were good for our relationship. This went on for two years. I think that he gave the appearance of being happier because his needs were being met. They were being met by someone other than me. I have read that things can actually appear to be better on the surface because the WS is actually happier because of their new found "love". I discovered the A at the beginning of this year. He stated that he cared for me, loved me but not as a spouse and had no intentions of ever hurting me. He thought that I never loved him and that we would never be able to work things out because there was too much water under the bridge etc....<BR>The truth was that I did love him. It was evident to everyone except him. I didn't meet his needs at all. He never felt loved because I kept trying to meet needs other than what he desired. That is not to say that I didn't do hurtful things to him or say hurtful things. I did plenty of that.<BR>People thought that we had worked so hard and come so far. We look great together, have beautiful children blah blah blah. Nobody has a clue. At home, it was nothing. Emptiness, friction, disrespect. <P>My oldest picked up on these things. When things started to turn around for us, he made a comment about this being the "happy house" now. It was alarmingly funny and sad all at the same time.<P>I'm rambling sorry. Anyway, my H was going to leave. He was convinced it was the only way. I also know from snooping that he said he never felt this kind of love for anybody before and that he loved her very much. Of course, I was crushed and could not comprehend it. It was his voice saying those things and I could tell by the way he said it that he meant it. I would say he was out the door. <BR>So, one day he calls me on his way home from work in the kindest voice and says that he has made a decision. He says that we are getting a divorce and its the only way. I go home immediatley and we have a talk. I explain why I think he has had the affair according to Dr. Harley and share a little of the insight that I have gleaned from his books. Whatever I said and through the grace of God, something happened in that moment and he started to believe that maybe we werent doomed after all. Now let me just say that my H is VERY logical and does not make big decisions like that unless he has mulled over them for a very long time. So for him to say its over, means that he was convinced.<P>Ever since that day, we have read the books, done the seminar and take this very seriously. I think he now knows how much I do love him. I won't say that it is easy. It is defintely a roller coaster. I will tell you though that I was doing plan A for a few months before we had the breakthrough and he did say that he had noticed the changes but couldn't tell if they were for real or not.<P>Even if your W thinks it is a lost cause, she is not blind. It may be a few weeks or it may be a few months. She will notice. You will become a better husband. It will be up to her what she does knowing who you have become. That part we can not control. That is the hardest part. I just prayed everyday that my H would open his heart. He did and now the hopeless, loveless marriage is a loving, growing marriage.<P>If you have any more questions or just didn't get my rambling, let me know and I'll be glad to respond.<P>cleo<p>[This message has been edited by cleopatra (edited November 26, 2000).]

Cleo - beautiful! You give me inspiration. Please follow my story. Thanks and continued good luck to you!!<P>WAT

WAT, Thought I'd respond also. I'm still having a difficult time believing our marraige was that bad!!! So how's that!!! Maybe it's me...maybe I just don't expect the same as other people. <P>But, you mentioned a crisis. And I really believe an affair is an escape!!! My H also went through a crisis at work... Had lots to do with his self esteem. We were not as close as we had been simply because he was working non stop with the "ingratiating" OP.<P>Having said that, he also has not dealt with a few other BIG crises in his past... Dad and brothers death. Combine that with turning 45.....<P>My H said so many things to me that were just NOT true, and in fact sounded like the OW's words. I pretty much did NOT take it... (at least to his face....by myself I crumbled)... <P>When none of the above seemed to work, he eventually said he was unhappy and wanted to change everything in his life. I guess they sometimes need to figure out on their own that you can change everything and still feel the same on the inside!!! ANd it still needs to be dealt with.

tootrusting - thanks for your response. You're correct, just yesterday I was reading another book I bought on infidelity (I lost count of how many I have) and a "crisis affair" is definitely an identifiable species. I think this must be what my wife is in. Our youngest son died in 8/99, about nine monthe before the affair started - with OM who, with his family, was very close to us and helped out a lot during our long ordeal trying to cure our son. OM was a pallbearer at the funeral. So it seems to fit - unresolved grief with someone who could directly relate. Her grief is far from over, and hopefully the special bond we now share will eventually bring our family back together. So, if we get into recovery, her grief has to be dealt with at the same time. PTC<P>WAT

WAT, I want to tell you how sorry I am that you and your wife have had to suffer the loss of a child. I cannot imagine the pain. Unresolved grief can be unbearable. <P>It seems to me that it is human nature to want to escape from the pain that we feel. We certainly see that in our society..with drug use, alcohol abuse, gambling etc. Yes, affairs are another form of escape.<P>Are you and your wife still living together?? Has she gone to counseling??<P>My H moved out in Feb. The OW left her H in may. They do not currently live together but she is pregnant. She is telling everyone it is my H's, but she was also sleeping with her H at the time. In my Heart I know it is my H's son she is carrying, because I know the OP. It is truly a mess.<P>Luckily, my H's family and I sort of coerced my H into counseling. He allowed me to find a counselor and I found a man who specializes in mens mid life issues. He is still going, but still has a lot of unresolved issues. Meanwhile he is still at work with the OW and her growing belly. <P>I continue to stand back because I realize that it is important for my H to go through this journey himself. The OW has been pretty much in control, but I hope and pray that my H is able to look very deeply inside of himself and look around. <P>I hope your wife will be able too also.

tootrusting - thanks for your kind words. We are not living together. D-day was in June and she moved out in August. We had one counseling session prior to the separation, but she was just going for show - to say she did work on the marriage and it didn't help. In a choreographed plan, the OM and his wife did the same.<P>Ultimately, if she comes out of the fog, the counseling will come along with therapy for the unresolved grief.<P>WAT