Here's the question:<P>Should I discuss my feelings, maybe my paranoia with my H, or work through them on my own?<P>This is just a little bump, and it would be absolutely nothing if my H did not have his affair or lie to me two years ago. (He had a 4 week kissy face dating period followed by 8 more weeks of phone contact)<P>Last week, we ran into a former co-worker of my H and he said something like "Hey, wasn't it something how we ended up having a beer last week?" I asked H about it. He said that when he came home a little early for a hair cut the week before, he ran into our good friend, who urged him to go have a beer at the private club (no not that kind) a block away. While there, this first stops by and joins them. They were probably there less than an hour. I do not suspect that this was planned, nor do I think anything wnet on that I could remotely be upset about....<P>Except my H didn't tell me. I'm not sure I was even home when he got home. And this was really such a nonevent, I honestly don't think my H was hiding anything or even made a decision not to tell me. It truly just never came up. It was a fluke that I found out. (We live in a small town, so everybody runs into everybody all the time).<P>But this is really eating at me...and it is mushrooming in my brain. Why? Because it triggers that little seed of doubt. My mind starts thinking that as accountable as I think he has been, maybe he could "get away" with all sorts of stuff. My mind says, he was able to lie before and you didn't know it, how can you be sure he is not lying now about something going on.<P>On the other hand, things have been really good, his demeanor has been great, and he even has been showing some emotional and spiritual growth, lately. He has been affectionate and seems to be trying to be nice.<P>Additional triggers are that he probably met the Brazen Hussy two years ago this week. Like two years ago there is a lot going on at work (even though this is a new job) and he is putting in many many hours. Hopefully these hours will be over by Christmas and we really will have more time together. So the season and the long hours are not helping to make my outlook bright.<P>I honestly think this is a function of my own insecurity and based on nothing real. I talked to him once and told him I really needed for him to be accountable and open. He apologized and pointed out that the one beer would show up on our billing and that he was not trying to hide anything, but he would remember to tell me in the future. But I don't think he knows HOW important this little stuff is.<P>Yet I don't want to create a environment of mistrust. I don't want to beat him up with his past mistake.<P>Any advise?

FHL,<BR>First of all <BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <P>And, I think you are totally normal (coming from me, maybe that's not so comforting?)<P>With my marital situation having gotten to such awful places, I think it is one of the things working to good that my H knows how important accountability is, but as we relax a bit, well, we relax a bit and sometimes we forget how important it is.<P>Something Guard does now, is anytime he goes for a beer, he calls me first, & either invites me to join him or asks me if it is all right with me. It is a very precious gift to me, and certainly one he does of his own volition, because he too has *time* in his schedule, even though he's *busy* with work and family. But, if his actions had been like your H's and ended 2 years ago, I doubt Guard would see the need. And, I'm not denigrating your pain FHL, betrayal is betrayal and inflicts lasting pain.<P>3 years ago my H saw no problem with lunches, beer, playing pool, conversing with the OW or any other women...now he knows it's just one step on the wrong path, not serious in and of itself, and quickly backed off from, but it makes the next step just as easy...and soon the way back gets pretty murky.<P>To me, this is the important part of your post:<P><<On the other hand, things have been really good, his demeanor has been great, and he even has been showing some emotional and spiritual growth, lately. He has been affectionate and seems to be trying to be nice.>><P>This is your rather oblivious H? Wow! I think all that love you've been pouring on him has taken root.<P>Time of year/event triggers are a true bummer. I'm fighting my own. Every day. I constantly remind myself today is a new day, it isn't last year when we reconciled the 6th time, or the year before when we reconciled the 2nd time (he likes his holidays at home? What does that mean for me this year?--Oh yeah, THAT'S what I'm putting out of my mind.), or the year before, when the flirtation had begun.<P>My counselor says that when he sees someone who has anniversary dates or holidays that grieve them, he generally finds some unforgiveness or anger or fear lurking in that emotional area. I have no doubt you've forgiven your H, but do a little checking of your heart, then just remind yourself that you have forgiven.<P>And...make sure you are spending time with your H. Are you doing the 15 hours a week? I know time spent together, even if the kids are with us, helps us a great deal, but go out and have some fun just the 2 of you as well. Don't get too busy for your marriage.<P>And, FHL, if I've never said it...THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for all the help, support, comfort, and the couple of cyber-whacks on the head you gave me when I jumped off the path. You truly were a Godsend to me, and your words/prayers part of what brought Guard & me to a better place.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

What a kind thing to say, Lor, and you are welcome.<P>I will give your post a little more thought, but I do believe you have great insight into this and you are right.<P>I guess I don't like to admit that I may never be able to trust completely or feel completely secure...even if my H is actually trustworthy...and I believe he is.<P>Doesn't seem quite fair for either of us...

FHL,<P>Knowing you to be one of the most tactful people here, I think you should mention your concern to your husband. Just be sure to say all the POSITIVE things you mentioned in your post. Perhaps you could simply tell him that it concerned you at first, but after you thought about the fact that:<P>"On the other hand, things have been really good, his demeanor has been great, and he even has been showing some emotional and spiritual growth, lately. He has been affectionate and seems to be trying to be nice."<P>you realized that your concerns were unwarranted. Really good positive reinforcement! Just my $.02.<P>Peppermint<P>

Glad I'm not the only one asking myself these questions. I do think the triggers have less control over my emotions than they did have, I think that I am getting better. I sure hope I am! <P>I know I cannot discuss my feelings with my husband if I am feeling like poopoo! I know I have to wait for those feelings to subside, and to put an extra oomph into the marriage when they come. I do know that my husband is receptive to discussing them when I am past the poopoo feeling. I can tell him how I was feeling (without attacking) and then I can tell him that I know that those feelings are not going to affect the long term, because I know we are committed and going to be together forever. Not always is he willing to stop the behavior that causes my feelings - like playing a CD that brings back bad memories, or going to Karaoke, or tell OW to leave if she stops by our house, or tell his sisters to butt out! But, just knowing that I have control over my feelings is helping me deal with this. <P>I don't think these triggers will just go away. I don't think I will be insulated from the pain. It might take time, but really - I think that conquering how I react to them is what is going to improve.<P>take care, FHL. - TNT<P>

TnT...so good to hear from you! Don't have time to respond now...but just wanted to say I have been thinking about you!

<B>Ladies, FaithHopeLove, Lor (Lor), peppermint, trustntruth</B><P>Gosh, so good to see you all. Feels comfortable, feels good. Like HOME! Family.<P>Came here tonight for a couple of reasons. Going through triggers too, natch. I am beginning to think they will never go away. <P>Maybe like TNT says, I have to take more control over how I react to them.<P>Hubby and I are doing well. I am just not always doing well. Have to say though that I am doing well, on more days than not. <P><B>FaithHopeLove</B><P>I agree with what Peppermint says. You are very tactful, full of grace and the Love of the Lord shines through you. I believe after you aren't reacting so strongly to the triggers, that you can tell your hubby. I have to say I am so pleased by the progress you two have made. You too helped me so many times in the past.<P>Well, I have to run. Again so good to see all of you. <B>Now where in the heck is WASSI?!?!?!</B><P>Tons of love to you all,<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><P><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited November 28, 2000).]

FHL, TNT, Lor,<P>My mentors! Got me through alot way back when. <P>Trigger! Those buggers never seem to go away. I'm facing the future with year 4 under my belt.....D-Day, Dec. 14th 1996. It really is better, in fact the triggers are inconsequential. Yes, I think of things and would respond negatively but the edge is finally off! My saving grace is that she has moved away. For that I am forever grateful. If she were still around FHL, I would probably be a bit more concerned. Not that my h would go for her again, but because she would be the reminder of hell on earth.<P>Give yourself a break FHL, its OK to be rattled even after 2 years. You love your man and there is nothing wrong with that!<P>Blessings, Taj

First of all, it is so GREAT to hear from all of you on this thread. It is like a big warm fuzzy to hear all of your kind words. <P>You have no idea how often my friends here cross my mind or are a part of my prayers.<P>Lor, I did think about your post and I am checking my heart for unforgiveness. I think the actual affair is forgiven, it really wasn't much of anything in itself, but I think there may be a little more resentment for all the pain it caused/is causing, than I would like to admit. <P>I think the problem is magnified because we aren't spending close to 15 hours together alone, not even with together with the family, because of his work schedule. This should improve by Christmas and the pressure he has been under since he started this new job over a year ago, should decrease when these company milestones are finally met and behind them. For a few weeks when he was only working 50 hours, it seemed like a vacation, so 40 hours will make a big difference.<P>Peppermint, thanks for the kind words , my update is below and at least last night I do not deserve what you said . <P>TnT...again thank you. Please post of drop an E-mail more often, I get to worrying about you! You are so strong to overcome your triggers!<P>Sam...as with Peppermint...read below...didn't do a great job....<BR>But I loved your wonderful words (check your mail)<P>Taj...you, too? This is icing on the cake! I am sure time will help. I was actually looking forward to the two year anniversary as if something magical would pack this all in a bag and haul it away. Guess it isn't that easy, but it does get better.<P>Now read below for the update <BR>I am not proud of myself!<BR>Well, I think I got my message accross, but not quite the way I intended, nor as tactfully as I would have planned.<BR>Last night after work H went on a planned trip to his parents, which is about an hour from here, but not as far from his work. I knew he was going, in fact I asked him to go to pick something up and he added some tasks that needed to be done. Nothing fishy about the trip.<P>But I didn't talk to him all day...and he was later than expected. Actually when he was getting late, I "knew" he had taken a nap there. My H LOVES to nap (I'm pretty sure he has a mild sleep disorder) and of course his parents house is much quieter than ours. If he was tired after work, which he ALWAYS is, and still had the drive home which he fights nodding off, of course napping there was a good idea.<P>My teen was on the phone quite a bit, so I even thought he tried to call in vain. But since I was already upset about what I previously posted about, that fear demon popped out and my heart started racing and that sinking feeling came over me.<P>I still wasn't going to say anything, but after a few minutes home, he looked at me and asked what was wrong. Since the kids were on their way to bed, I told him "nothing", but when he pressed it, I said I'd tell him later.<P>Not a good idea. Trying to tell him ANYTHING when he is sleepy is disasterous.<P>Although he was not upset, accounted for his time, apologized for not calling and said he would try to remember to call in the future, for the state I was in, he was not sorry "enough".<P>I told him how my heart would start racing and he assured me there nothing going on in his life that I didn't know about. He said that he loves me and would love me forever. Yet in my state, he didn't declare his love boldly "enough".<P>I told him how I wanted him to burn with desire for me. He said he did. I then accused him of not wanting sex with me enough or initiating enough.<P>Now I was breaking my own rules of only sticking to the subject and speaking in a way that builds up and resolves rather than tears down.<P>My H said he was tired and only had three hours to sleep. He is working almost 72 hours/week right now.<P>Luckily one of my daughters got up to throw up and it ended the conversation when she needed help. Still the last thing he said half asleep was that he loved me.<P>He left this morning without me hearing him, and he has not been at his desk (in his job he usually isn't), so I am feeling down.<P>When I do reach him he won't be mad or anything, but he will be tired. In fact I can almost guarantee he will be tired for several days, because although I can not prove it, I think it is a way for him to avoid conflict, not that I want to continue this.<P>Just thought I'd let you all know, for as much as I try to practise what I preach about positive thoughts and communication, I fail badly some days.<P><BR>

{{{{{{{{FHL}}}}}}}}}<BR>#1 ..Give yourself a break. You have to allow yourself some good days and bad days.<BR>Don't be so hard on yourself.<P>I was going to post earlier but I'm glad I got your update.<BR>Do you think it's possible that your reaction last night could have something to do with keeping too much inside?<BR>Maybe if you had told your H about your insecurities they wouldn't have built up?<P>IMHO it is important to let him know how you are feeling. That doesn't mean that he is totally responsible. You own your feelings. He can help you overcome them if you give him the opportunity. Try to think of it that way. Try to help him understand that you simply need his help overcoming the insecurities and triggers. <P>I know these guys think that we are accusing the minute we share with them. I also know that you can explain it in a way that will make him feel like the hero for helping you.<P>Hang in there my friend. You are doing much better than you give yourself credit for.

Hi FHL,<P>I agree with wassi's comments, you are doing well and we're all bound to be imperfect in this effort.<P>Dr. Phil McGraw was discussing a situation much like you describe on Oprah yesterday. The couple were asking for his advice about what the husband called "constant bickering", but it really was occasional. As Dr. Phil questioned them, the wife mentioned that this had been a problem since her husband's affair several years ago. Dr. Phil pointed out that when they had these "disagreements" it was rarely really about what they were arguing about. He said the bottom line is that the problems caused by the affair have not been resolved. He "diagnosed" that most of their quarrels were caused by a lack of trust on the part of the wife, along with the fact that the husband really didn't "get it", regarding the pain and damage the affair had caused. Probably true for most of us here!<P>Sorry your discussion with your husband didn't go as planned, but today is a whole new day. Good luck with resolving this.<P>Peppermint

Nice to see all of you here in this one place - i get those warm feelings just like you FHL!<P>I think you are right, Peppermint, there are probably lots of us old timers out there that have unresolved issues and hurt from the affair. I think we kinda learn how to live with the pain, and how to overcome the negative - and we have mostly good days but those bad days still come. <P>you said "Dr. Phil pointed out that when they had these "disagreements" it was rarely really about what they were arguing about. He said the bottom line is that the problems caused by the affair have not been resolved. He "diagnosed" that most of their quarrels were caused by a lack of trust on the part of the wife, along with the fact that the husband really didn't "get it", regarding the pain and damage the affair had caused. Probably true for most of us here!"<P>We can fill a love bank, and have our love bank filled, but unless we learn how and when to communicate how we feel, there will be mis communication - and miscommunication breeds conflict, conflict breeds quarrels, and there you are draining the lovebank and then the pain is there more often.<P>I think the key is focusing on the goal, and communicating and respecting one another. Giving forgiveness doesn't stop the pain. It does keep us from being drowned by it, though. It does make us stronger to forgive.<P>FHL, you just hang in there, and your husband needs to plan some time off with you. You need some one on one with him, and Christmas can be a great time to make lots of deposits. (or for that matter, ummmm; withdrawals too!)<P>Oh, and he is doing much better since SD moved to her mothers (yes it is still only 4 doors down, uggh - no we haven't moved but we are closer every day!). He is talking about starting some counseling for himself under the EAP program - he's having conflict with his co-worker who is now his boss. Power and control issues. He is also admitting he has a hard time controlling his emotions. (gee, sometimes don't we all?) Anyway, this is bigger progress. We still don't have 100% of the truth about the "almost mistake", but we are working on our future - so I guess that is good. <P>God Bless us all!<P><BR>uggh.<P>TNT<BR>

WS...now the thread is complete!<P>Yup, after a few wonderful insights from my friends here, I think a lot of this has to do with keeping so much inside.<P>I daydream of how good it would feel to really give it to my H. I can imagine using words that never have even formed on my lips. It sounds so cleansing, but in reality wouldn't solve anything.<P>I am somewhat trapped in my own reputation. I have always been so nice, so reasoned, so loyal...if I really let it rip, I would lose my sterling image.<P>On the other hand, if I could take him by the throat, and really hash out the last two years of torture, maybe I'd feel a little relief. <P>Who knows? In reality I know that would not be safe for either of us.<P>I will try to be easier on myself. Actually no one could put more pressure on me than I put on myself.<P>Peppermint...what you said of Dr. Phil was right on. Although I have no doubt of the root of my problem, I am sure my H doesn't. But the problem is, if I really made sure he "got" it, it may do more damage than healing.<P>TnT...so glad to hear your update. I can hardly wait until you move a bit further away!<P>Yes, we do need some time together. It is tough with his schedule, ski season coming up and general life with 3 kids, the youngest only five.<P>Maybe spring....I can't imagine waiting that long. <P>H let me know when I joined him in bed that he was tired all day and not to expect anything ...but that someday he looked forward to being together, too.<P>Yup...I'm feeling like #1 priority...NOT!<BR>

What a pleasure to see the posts of all these old friends!<P>FHL--I just posted to you on my thread in recovery, it probably should have been done here!<P>Just a view of sex... I was at our couples Bible Study, and one of the women made a comment about men "wanting it all the time". Not one of the other 4 women there even cracked a smile--including me and none of the men said anything. It was like the room froze, and the counselor moved quickly on. But I know for a couple moments I looked at her, then looked at her H, wondering if she knows some sensual/sexual secret I do not.<P>I personally think, at least for me, and probably for my H, that trust & honesty (all facets: giving, receiving, accepting and being deserving of) are closely linked to desire. With some of the WS, there's that lingering feeling of not deserving the "good" spouse and so the WS does not push desires upon them, even though the BS wants sex and may feel cast aside as the WS had sex, or gave attention, to the OP.<P>We're all layers upon layers of our thoughts, beliefs and experiences.

Yup...<P>Especially when I am in a funk like this, I really need great sex...not physical release...but something that helps me reconnect.<P>It is not that I don't think my H is interested in sex, but I don't think he doesn't use it to emotionally connect as much as I do....although I can't say I ever feel used or he just is in it for the pleasure. <P>It is a disaster when I need it and he is tired for days on end.<P>Oh, well...

FHL,<P>I know you've also expressed frustration with trying to POJA. I feel for you because you often sound like ships passing in the night.<P>Did you sit down and discuss this work schedule or was it thrust on him? I still don't like my h's travel schedule, but I looked at all the alternatives and decided it was the best thing for now. It really makes a difference that it was my decision when I start feeling alone.<P>I wouldn't think you could agree to those work hours and skiing. Something has to give and it shouldn't be you!<P>My h recently mentioned again that he would like to get his MBA. Let's see, he'll travel weekdays and go to school on alternate weekends. Sounds like great fun!<P>I didn't say no. I said if he could swing it without taking time from us, great! Right. Things are going really well between us (for the most part) now, and I really couldn't say what the effects would be if he took himself away like that.<P>He dropped it and said he realizes the only way to do it would be if we had the money for him not to work for awhile. I allowed him to look at the consequences of what he wanted to do without pressuring him. I think this goes along with what I'm learning in Passionate Marriage, though I had not started reading it then.<P>Maybe this is it, rather than the big stick you once asked about. Don't keep asking, go on with your life and be happy!

schizzo,<P>We knew going into this new job that it would have long hours the first couple of years. He had a great job, but felt he was stagnating. He wasn't really using his new Master's or certification, and he was afraid it would become worthless soon if he didn't get direct job experience.<P>We both miss his old job, he worked hard, but was on "cruise". It was also only 10 minutes away, instead of almost an hour.<P>But I think this was the best decision overall given the situation. I honestly don't mind him working so much if he would communicate with me and connect even for the short time we are together.<P>I understand his fatigue, but it works against us when something comes up.<P>My H is considering either going back for his PhD or an MBA. Sigh...<P>I actually would like him to get his PhD so he could consult or teach later on in life. I think he would enjoy and excel at either. I would love to live in a college town and come back to summer where we live now. He doesn't want to miss out on our kids growing up, however, so I don't think he'll actually do it. On the other hand, if he doesn't move quickly, his old prof will retire and it could become much harder for him to go back. <P>Although at our worst we are two ships in the night, at our best we are wonderful life partners. And I don't think there could be a more balanced set of parents.<P>We do want the best for each other and we do love each other.<P>Yes, I have complained about POJA because we are so different. I don't want to compromise anything he holds dear, like his recreational pursuits. I can't help think that it would be plain mean to limit his skiing, given how important it is to him. He also sees it as a great time to spend time with the family. It is good in theory, but with a 5 year old and one in high school, it is difficult to coordinate. My middle daughter thrives on the slopes, however.<P>He would counter a POJA agreement with that we can spend quality time together "doing stuff". In fact pretty much all the time he spends with the kids is doing chores together and recreation. He doesn't see it as taking time away, but rather spending time together....except somehow I get left out because of kids schedules. Oh well...winter doesn't last forever...<P>I really am in a better mood tonight. Hope I can keep it up!

FHL,<P>I am a little slow on the draw here but wanted to get in on the discussion as well ( we are entering finals week for this semester so I have exams and a lot of projects due ).<P>I can relate so much to what you are saying here...the little things that happen that would have been of no consequence a year and a half ago set my heart racing now. All I feel I can do now is breathe and say a quick little prayer for peace of mind and clarity.<P>I do understand what you say about wanting to let it rip sometimes...there are moments or even days when all I want to do is scream, yell, break something and somehow let Arik know exactly what he put me through; because no matter how many posts he reads, how many movies he sees, how many songs he hears he really has no idea of what his affair did to who I was and how I felt about me and about us. Like you, part of the reason I have yet to do that is because the image of "me" in my quiet peacefullnes and sweet serenity ( most people desccribe me as being gentle, sweet, calming...(you get the picture)) would be destroyed, and also little would be accomplised with me "going off the wall" like that.<P>Anyway, I hope things have gone better more recently. Don't get down on yourself too much...you are always the one telling me that I am being too hard on myself...you are just like so many others in not taking your own advice.<P>God Bless<p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited December 01, 2000).]

Nicole,<BR>It is so good to hear from you!<P>And from reading your post, I know you understand completely! <P>Somedays it is difficult living in the land of "nice". I am described much like you are, and many people turn to me inside and outside of the family. It seems like I have been given a gift for portraying calm strength and it would be wrong to squander it.<P>I will try to lighten up on myself, however.<P>Thank you for your kind words! So glad you are doing well!

FHL, you've told ME your position and his position. That's the first step in POJA. He tells you what he thinks, you repeat to show you've understood. He does the same for you.<P>Now, if you're not quite enthusiastic about it, what would it take? That's where a couple hours of brainstorming can come in. It's true it's good time with the kids, you still want some "couple time". Where can you find it? Some weeks we've had to get up early and I am not a morning person! Sex or conversation when I'm really sleepy is kinda weird.