First, I admire your openness and frankness on this forum. It has been helpful to me and many others, I'm sure.<P>You have both mentioned that firestorm said things and told lies he doesn't now remember. My wife's affair has been in progress for almost 6 months and she followed the script regarding the denials and lies. To this day she still denies the affair. The other day she told me with a straight face that she has lied to me only once. That, of course, is a lie in itself. She knows (or used to know) that I caught her in many lies and deceptions. <P>Is it possible she really believes she has lied only once? <BR>Is this just evidence of her denial to herself?<BR>Can you pin this to a phase - or is this typical throughout the foggy period?<BR>Because she is doing this, is it a fair statement that she's still so messed up that I shouldn't place any significance on it for the long term?<P>Any insight would be greatly appreciated.<P>Thanks,<BR>WAT<BR>

WAT<BR>Peppermint & Firestorm have left for their anniversary and will be gone for awhile. Just thought I would let you know.<P>Judy

Thanks, Judy. Guess if I had read peppermint's post about their anniversary I would have known this. Duh.<P>WAT

worthatry,<P>I hope you don't mind me jumping in here too much. I just wanted to offer a little insight from my own experience if I could.<P>My H was involved in a 7 month affair ( six of which were after d-day ). During this time he said and did things that are completely amazing to him now...some things he doesn't even recall. He denied contact when there was contact. He said she initiated it when he did. He tried to convince me, when he was going to have to go to her hometown for work, that "no matter what happens home is where I want to be...but I am not planning on anything happening." (that was bunk pure and simple...he admits that now). He denied that what he was doing was an affair and said that all he had with OW was a friendship with somebody he happened to have sex with one time. He believed and wanted me to believe that his having the OW as a friend would only be detrimental to our relationship if I let it be. <P>I guess what I am trying to say is I honestly believe it is the fog talking...<BR>Your wife is in it deep and has convinced herself that what she is doing is not an affair to her she is not lying...as I said she has convinced herself and now must convince you...( at least that is what her guilty conscience is trying to do for her ).<P>I hope this helps a little, I know peppermint and firestorm will be able to add more when they return. Hang in there...I did and my H did eventually come out of the fog. It's a good sign that she is still home with you, deep down she may know what she really wants.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited December 02, 2000).]

Nicole,<P>I'm jumping in here too to tell you that (as you might know) I'm in the same boat as WAT is, and your post IS a big help. These kinds of successes are always an inspiration to keep up with Plan As and maintain the goal of saving our marriages. Sometimes it is hard to envision that the lying could stop because it is so deep. Thanks.

Nicole and Rick - thanks for jumping in, we all need all the help we can get.<P>You may not know that she is not home with me. She moved out over three months ago. I was doing a good Plan A until recently when she began avoiding me - will not come into my house and no extended conversations. If it wasn't for our son, I guess she'd stay away completely. This was an abrupt change from a more socialable period when she would come over for dinners, the three of us would do things together, and she was planning a normal Christmas together - I thought maybe she was coming out of the fog. It changed when we had a confrontation last weekend about her having our son around the OM against my requests. Although it was calm, it must have been a big LB for her. It was in this conversation that she proclaimed she's lied only once, no adulterous affair, OM not a threat to me, etc., etc., etc.<P>Thus, my question to peppermint and fs, is her claim of only one lie proof enough that she's still in it deep? Any advice on the silent treatment is welcome too. It feels like she's distancing herself further from me.<P>WAT<P>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 02, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 02, 2000).]

Nicole - thanks again for jumping in - one more question if you don't mind:<P>Can you describe your H's process of coming out of the fog, i.e., becoming amazed at some of the things he did and said. This is the step or process that I want to be able to recognize if/when it happens. Anything I can do to ease it along?<P>Thanks,<BR>WAT

I'll pop in for her. We are 15 months past the beginning of our recovery. The fog lasted 8 months past discovery and 7 months past the last contact. (He had to find a new job).<P>You can't rush it along. Just make yourself so incredibly desirable (self aware, self sufficient, pleasant and not NEEDY), that they here from everyone ELSE how dumb they were.<P>Don't be the one to tell them they were stupid. <P>my nickels' worth,<BR>liz

And I'll jump in the ring to say thanks Liz (alias). Your thoughts are invaluable as opposed to being a nickels' worth.

WAT,<P>I am not really sure what it was that took my h out of his fog...I do know that I told him that I couldn't and wouldn't do it anymore (live with him, try to build a marriage, keep putting myself out there - just to be hurt again) if he was going to continue any type of friendship with the OW. Shortly after I told him that, he came out of "the fog". It took several more months before he acknowledged that even continuing the friendship was wrong, not just because it hurt me but because IT WAS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!! (For the longest time he said that the only thing that was wrong with his relationship with OW was that it hurt me).<BR> <BR>For some people though, thinking of or moving into plan B isn't the best thing, not many people deal well with ultimatums. The timing in my telling my h that I wasn't going to do it anymore was just right I think. His feelings for the OW were fading and he may have been starting to see her in a diferent light...again I am not really sure what it was entirely.<P>Right after he ended the affair he became a little distant with me but I think that was part of the effects of withdrawl. He could probably tell you more of what it was that lifted the fog or made him decide to end the affair but he doesn't post here anymore. If you want a little insight into what I had to what his "fog state" was like look for "Being a better Arik" or "2Soulmates" in the READ ONLY posts section. We are doing much better right now. He is doing what he can to help me heal but as I said on FHL topic he really will never have any idea of what I went through last year and when they don't "get it" it's hard for them to help you through it.<P>I am sorry to hear your wife isn't at home. I really do hope things get better for you soon. (I guess I need to do my homework and read a bit about somebody's history before I go and post a reply )<P> <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited December 02, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited December 02, 2000).]

Wow! Nicole and Liz, this is the best thread I ever started and my original addressees haven't even seen it yet!<P>I've been discouraged lately because of my wife's lack of any effort to be in contact with me. But your insights rev-up my resolve and I'll double my efforts to be more independent and self assured. Today, all the Christmas decorations are going up before she brings my son home. Life goes on without her!<P>Rick - what would we do without these and our other helpful ladies - there really are caring women out there!<BR>I'll respond to your latest post in a while.<P>Thanks,<BR>WAT<P>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 03, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 03, 2000).]

You are right. Without this insight we get from the great people here, it would be much more discouraging. I wish I found this place in June instead of August.<P>My Xmas tree goes up today as well. Kids are having a nap now, so we'll do it when they get up. What is the plan for your Xmas day. Wife coming to your house?<P>

Hi Worthatry,<P>We are back! I decided to check the forum and saw this post. I want to tell our story from my perspective and then let firestorm answer from his view of things.<P>A little about our situation: Firestorm has always been careless with the truth. He would exaggerate things or omit parts of the truth anytime he thought it would cast him in a better light or to avoid conflict with me. I always knew this, and while it bothered me it didn't seem like it was really that serious because he is such a good husband in most every other way. As an example, he would spend money on something frivolous when we were financially strapped, and then hide it from me or lie about the real cost of it. I knew he did things like that, but never believed he would lie to me about anything as serious as another woman.<P>In September 1999, I began having some gynecological problems, and mentioned that I was going to have to go to the doctor because I had never experienced anything like it and had no idea what it was. Firestorm became very upset and over the course of a couple of days, confessed that he had been with another woman. I went to the doctor and, sure enough, I had an STD. The lies began immediately (one time, no real sex, etc. etc.). He denied it was an "affair", and even lied about the identity of the other woman. Of course, he told me he loved only me, that it was completely over with the other woman, that he would never have anything to do with her again, that he would tell me if she ever tried to contact him again, blah, blah, blah. All lies. They just got more careful, and he got better at lying.<P>He would even get furious with me when I caught him in a lie. The fog was thick and heavy, but I didn't know that. Things were still pretty bad with our relationship, but I didn't know he was still seeing her until August of this year when her husband found out and showed me the proof. Of course, I confronted firestorm and he admitted TALKING to the other woman, but denied everything else, still claimed no sex, no meetings, etc. Again, all lies.<P>But I do know that the fog had started to lift before I found out he was still seeing her, because I could see a real change starting in him. One night, August 6th to be exact, I was sitting on the bed reading and he came into the room, sat down and cried and told me that he knew that I would never do anything as bad as he had done, that he was so very sorry, and that he would do anything to be able to take it all back. (Keep in mind that I didn't know he was still seeing her when he said that, so I thought he was talking about what had happened last year.) He also talked about wanting to go to counseling, renew our vows, etc. Later I found out that my husband had sex with the OW the day before (supposedly the only time) and that he had discovered the OW was also seeing someone else. The sex evidently didn't go very well, and that, along with the discovery that she has another OM, really started clearing the fog.<P>It didn't lift all at once. Instead it was a long process of more lies. About three weeks after I found out about the affair, I ran into the OW outside a local restaurant. She laughed at me and made a very hateful comment about what she "had". She also called my husband's workplace and caused a big scene the same day. All of these things together helped him to see her for what she really is. The fog really started clearing.<P>But the big step for my husband was to actually see himself clearly and admit the truth about the affair. He had not wanted to accept blame for the affair. Instead, he wanted to blame me for not meeting his "needs" for recreational companionship, respect, and admiration. He wanted to blame the OW for pursuing him (that part is true, she did). He wanted to blame the OW's husband for "abusing" her (all lies that she used to get firestorm's sympathy). He wanted to play the part of the poor victim.<P>One of the counselors he went to associates coming out of the fog with really "getting it". By that she means seeing the affair for what it is, accepting responsibility for committing adultery, and accepting blame for the pain and suffering that has been created without trying to put the blame on anyone else. With her help, he is finally getting it. He has not been 100% completely honest about the affair, but he has been truthful about the fact that it was a sexual affair and that he did have feelings for the OW. That's really all I need to hear about that. Like Nicole mentioned about her husband, he can't believe or even remember some of the things he said and did. He is not the same man now that he was during the affair.<P>I know this is very long, but I wanted you to see how this can be. It is possible that your wife has convinced herself that she isn't really lying, and I would definitely say that she is very much under the influence of the fog. We both know that she IS having an affair, but until she is willing to admit it and face the consequences of it you are not going to be able to make very much progress in your marriage. Lies and denials are very typical of the the whole thing. Perhaps she thinks it is only one lie because it is only one extramarital relationship. I would guess that she is avoiding you either because she feels guilty about the affair or she feels disloyal to the other man. Betrayers have to somehow justify to themselves the fact that they are cheating. Sometimes they convince themselves that their spouse "deserves" the infidelity, sometimes they convince themselves that they deserve the pleasure of the affair. I wonder if your wife is normally a very honest person, or if she is like firestorm and conveniently truthful. <P>Worthatry, I am not trying to discourage you. In a way, firestorm was guilty by reason of insanity. He was honestly NOT in his right mind while he was doing these terrible things. Your wife is not the woman that she was before this involvement. I hope that she soon will be back for you again, and wish I had some words of wisdom to share with you. The word "fog" doesn't seem strong enough or horrible enough for the havoc it brings into our lives, and I wish there was something we could do to force it away. It is like another person inhabits the body of your spouse (like a Trill in Star Trek, if you know what that is), and they don't leave until their energy is spent. It is a long hard road we have to travel to survive this. It is definitely the worst of the "for better or worse".<P>I'll be watching for your posts, and please remember that I don't mind answering any questions you have (sometimes at length!). You will get many perspectives on this from lots of people who are going through the same thing, but they will probably all be remarkably similar. It does seem that the unfaithful follow the same set of instructions!<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited December 03, 2000).]

peppermint - thank you, thank you, thank you. You and the others help me (and others like me)hang in there. I have no idea where we're headed, but my wife is far too smart to let her foolishness go on indefinitely. Her problem is that she is a perfectionist and is stubborn, so for her to admit wrongdoing will be a big pill to swallow. So the current forecast is for foggy and cold.<P>Thanks again,<BR>WAT

Peppermint,<P>I would like to thank you as well. It helps so much to hear what the fog has been like for others.<P>WAT, you aren't the only one with a stubborn wife that you fear will not easily admit wrongdoing. That part of it is worrysome to me. Life goes on and we'll see what it brings. Tree is up and looking good.