Please, please can I have your advice and support. <P>The story so far:- (in a nutshell)<P>H began EA with co-worker 12 months ago, turned PA in Jan. D-day mid- March. He immediately announced he was leaving myself and two teenage Ds. Seven weeks later he came home but the A was far from over. They were in constant touch. You all will know the lies and deception that go on in such cases, he lied to me, his children and his family. The children knew about his continuing relationship with this woman but he was so deep into the fog he was oblivious to the pain he was causing all of us added to the fact he had no emotional energy to give them or me. He did show remorse once when he apologised to the children for all the pain he had caused them and promised he would never leave again. <P>Of course, eight weeks later that is exactly what he did do. While he was with us during those 8 weeks I Plan A’ed myself into the ground.<P>About 3 weeks ago, following discussions with the children that had gone on for a month, we decided to break contact with him. The children felt they could no longer trust him, the lying was as bad as ever, and they were frightened of the next wave of pain he would unleash on them by his words or actions. The youngest was becoming depressed and the eldest was becoming very angry and bitter. They wanted to move away. But I wouldn't hear of it. So I guess we did a plan B on him. <P>We wrote him a very nice letter in which we told him we loved him very much but we couldn’t continue to see him under the present circumstances. Far from healing and getting on with our lives we were going backwards. So our decision to stop seeing him was not to be seen as a punishment but as a desire on our part to find peace and time to heal.<P>I have had to write to him once regarding financial arrangements. ( He refuses to accept any communication from me through a third party). He has sent several letters and faxes most of them very business like.<P>Last week, he spoke to the bank manager about our joint account and left me a message to say I would need to phone the bank urgently. As I didn’t wish to go into any discussions with the bank blindly, I was forced to contact him to find out what he had said and done. <P>I got him at work and I have never heard him so sad. He never once asked about the children and each time I tried to wind up the conversation , he found some excuse to keep me talking. We talked for about an hour and a half. I really felt that he was trying to reach out to me but didn’t know how. But another part of me says that he was trying to get me into a position where he could abuse my trust again. <P>Today I had a further letter again very business like re: finances but it also said that he felt very hurt and isolated and that he hated these cold letters between us as they were so very different from our conversations. <P>I don’t know what to do. The children have at last begun to find a little peace in their lives. Both say they don’t want him back. We are all so frightened of being hurt again, but I really think he is in pain. <P>Divorce was asked for by him at the beginning. But refused by me. About a month ago, before we broke contact, I said he could have his divorce as long as the children and I could keep the house. When he didn’t reply I said , ‘ Isn’t that what you want? You can have the divorce tomorrow as long as the children and I can be sure we don’t lose our home.’ Still no reply. ‘What’s more important your relationship with this woman or the money.’ Finally he said, ‘I don’t know.’ ????<P>Could the fog be finally lifting? Do I keep him at a distance? Do I dare throw him a life line and suggest that we can still work things out if he is prepared to end his affair once and for all? <BR>Please help me with some good advice.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by hope257 (edited December 02, 2000).]

hope257,<P>Do the harder thing...<BR>Stand your ground...<BR>...for in standing your ground... you really are showing him love.<P>He has to make the decision to come back...<BR>...not you!<P>He has to repent...<BR>...not you!<P>He has to hit bottom...<BR>...not you!<P>You have already "thrown a lifeline"...<BR>...if he really wants it...<BR>...if he got that <I>good</I> Plan B letter...<BR>...he knows it is <B>him</B> who has to come back when <B>he</B> is ready.<BR>His pain can lead him back...<BR>...but only his time.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>You did a good thing to prepare your Ds for the Plan B...<BR>...now make sure they are prepared for a day...<BR>...when one of your stages of forgiveness is complete... and you will take him back.<P>Make sure you and your Ds know that day may not come... but for a short time more... 6.. 12... 18... more and there will be no return.<P>Make sure your Ds know.. he is still their dad...<BR>...someone worth loving and honoring ... even if only through prayer... with the distance your H put between them.<P>I'll be praying for you, your Ds and your H too.<P> <P>Jim

Dear Jim,<P>Thanks for your reply. I think we did a good plan B letter. And I do mean WE, the girls and I wrote it together. I do not know if I yet feel confident about posting it on the open forum. <P>Do you have an e-mail address I could send it to. I have it saved on my hard drive and I would very much value your opinion.<P>Many thanks,<BR> <BR>Hope and her daughters<p>[This message has been edited by hope257 (edited December 02, 2000).]

Sure thing {Hope}...<P> imherczeg@ivillage.com ...<P>You can also check other's at <A HREF="http://pages.ivillage.com/mb_nsr/MB_RCI.html" TARGET=_blank>Roll Call Index</A>.<P> <P>Jim

Hi Hope:<P>As usual I agree with everything Jim has told you, but in addition I wanted to add that IMHO you have begun to acheived some of the objectives of Plan B....your H is missing you and the family....you and the children are reestablishing your emotional health...you have begun to imagine your life without WS and see a future without him...and not unhappily. Sure WS is hurting...but it is necessary for him to work through his own problems...and until he does you cannot relent and let him come back into your lives before he is really ready.<P>Until you can hear the word "I want to come back and really work on our marriage" then any attempt reestablish contact or allow his to come back would only be a "bandaid" for him...until he is "really" ready. Wait until you are sure he is ready...I think you will know.<P>Hold on...this is the crucial time...the whole purpose of Plan B.<P>Angels and Prayers ~ Faye <BR>

Jim - thank-you so much for reading my letter. You are right to say there is definitely a sense of finality about it, but the girls and I had come to the end of our ropes on this one. It was they who were the instigators of our action. <BR>I am not at the end of my marriage just at the end of my emotional reserves. <BR>I pray every night for my family to be restored and if it cannot be for strength to face the future.<P><BR>You said if I should ever write again I should adopt a softer tone. How can I do that without appearing to be weakening?<P>Faye- This plan B stuff is hard. It would be so much easier if he just didn't contact me at all.<P>BTW, he is in MLC. He has given me many different reasons for what he has done but the only one I believe is that he was bored.<P>He even said to me once, it would be easier if he got a pierced ear, a tattoo and a red sports car.<P>Hope

Meg,<P>I'm heading off to church...<BR>...but when I get back...<BR>...I'll have a response for you.<P>I hope your 18yo's BD went well. <P> <P>Jim

hope257,<BR>All I can offer is that I feel your pain and confusion. I know it must be so hard when you have children that understand and are aware of what is happening. Managing your own emotions during this time is tough and it sounds like you have a good relationship with those girls of yours. Just make sure that they do not turn bitter. My best friend's Dad had a 4 year affair 15 years ago...he subsequently ended up making a child and leaving their family for this woman and her very little boys, in essence starting over when he was almost done raising kids. She is very bitter to this day and her relationships with men is not good. She has been my rock during this time, but no one helped her during the time her father was destroying their family emotionally. Her mother was so devistated that she was hospitalized and fed through tubes for a couple of weeks. I will never forget the pain she went through and still does. (we were roommates in college when it came to a full blow) Be strong for those girls, it will be easy for them to hate their father and make bad mistakes with men in the future. <BR>I never understood the depth of pain my friends mother endured at the time, boy do I know it now, and I could only be a shoulder to cry on for my friend when she would let herself feel her pain. Like I said she is my best friend, high school, college and now life we have been through a lot together...I guess what I am trying to say is to take care of those girls of yours. I love my friend and wish that I could have understood more when we were younger to help her, get her to go to a counselor. Talk about it. Whatever it took. <BR>Just my advice. It really sounds like you have a good relationship with your girls, and that must be a comfort to you.<P>I too am plan b'ing it. Hardest darn thing I have ever done, but you know...we will all be better people whether they come home or not...and I have to ask for your help, when I forget this and get bogged down...you may have to remind me I said that above sometimes it is easy to forget.<P>Take care! <BR>

Cpickel,<P>How long have you been in Plan B? What has been your H's response. Mine seems hurt and also a bit angry. I will read up on your story when I get a chance. <P>At the moment, I am cleaning house and dashing back and forth between the vacuum cleaner and the computer to see if anyone else has posted.<BR>I feel his pain so badly. I want to reach out to him but am so frightened of letting myself get sucked in again.<BR> <BR>All this started, when the girls made it clear to him that they never wanted to meet or have any thing to do with OW. He invited them around to his place (she has her own house) for the weekend to be confronted by her things everywhere. I think he really believed that they were 6 or 8 years old and would just get used to the idea of Daddy's new girlfriend. They are much older and have very firm opinions of their own and nothing is ever going to persuade them that this woman is anything but selfish. My oldest girl says she wants nothing to do with someone who didn't take into consideration her feelings when she slept with her Dad.<BR>Although OW didn't appear that weekend the repercussions echoed over the remaining weeks. <BR>I only just found out that his place has a double bedroom and a single room. When they spent their one and only night there, he asked if they wanted to share the double bed while he slept in the single. The youngest replied she would be much happier on the floor thank you. They are fully aware of what goes on in that bed and were very upset that he even suggested it. <BR>They miss their Dad very much but they miss the old Dad not this one who has no thought for how they feel.<P>Hope

Dear Hopeful,<P>I'm in Plan B. I've been Plan B'ing my H for 2 mos ... his reaction was anger and resentment. He didn't understand or agree why I was emotionally distancing myself from him. He needed me in the mix of the threesome and protested my non-participation. I did Plan B more for me than for the marraige, I had no choice at the time.<P>Well, Plan B is so we can keep a degree of Love for our spouses before our Love Bank becomes entirely empty. That, and it's suppose to completely remove all ENs met by you, allowing the OP to try and meet all those EN for the WS. During those two months I started to think about good times with my H, I started to miss him terribly. Still do.<P>Flash forward to present, my H is still in his Fog ... he has made strides to file for D. He is still w/OW and has become very business like with me in any contact ... finances and such. <P>I look back now and I know I did the right thing. I Plan A'd him for close to a year (maybe more), and I felt very confident that I could no longer take the emotional abuse, things would go up and down, but every time they went down they were a bit worse. <P>Plan B saved my life ... MY LIFE ... maybe not my marriage but that still remains to be seen. Cutting off all contact w/my H was the hardest thing I have ever done. To not even talk to the man I was married to for the last 20 years was something I never thought I'd have the strength to do, but surpisingly I did. And I think it was because I knew it was the best thing for ME ... I needed to take care of ME. <P>Please know you're in my thoughts and prayers, Hon. I can't imagine how this must feel for your children, it sounds like you've raised them to be sound, strong people. <P>I wish you and your children the very best. I pray for your patience, wisdom and on-going strength.<P>Love,<BR>Jo<P>p.s. NSR ... you are such a wonderful person ... your support and caring always amazes me. God Bless you!

Hope,<P>Sorry I'm getting back to you so late...<P>OK...<BR>...about what to do in a followup letter.<P>First...<BR>Seperate the communication between you and your H, from your Ds and their dad.<P>While it may seem everything is tied to his infidelity...<BR>...the relationship you have with your H <B>IS</B> different than the one they need to have with their dad.<P>So...<BR>...any followup correspondence should be between you and your H...<BR>...and each D should write for themselves to their dad.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>Now about content...<P>You need to eliminate those LBs...<P>...and show the "strength" you so desire (and that is a good thing to show)<BR>... with 2 things...<P>1. admit your faults in the demise of the marriage... and be specific.<BR>Yes it's hard... yes, it exposes you...<BR>...but here is where the truth really does set you free.<P>2. tell him you've changed... and here too be <B>very</B> specific...<BR>...let him know what skills you've worked on<BR>......(go ahead and cite specific EN's you know you can meet)<BR>......(go ahead and let him know you understand giving and taking)<BR>......(go ahead and POJA... and can... and have applied it to others)<BR>...let him know that you've gotten help/support/counseling<BR>...let him know there is still hope<BR>......but importantly... let him know as time goes on... what love you have for him is dwindling!<P>All the while long eliminate the "blaming" of his actions...<BR>How irresponsible he is...<BR>...to you and your daughters!<BR>Don't be a nagging wife...<BR>...(I hope that doesn't offend).<P>Your strength <B>IS</B> your honesty in what you admit to as <I>your</I> failings...<BR>...and in being confident in expressing how you've changed!!!<P>It's a tough task...<BR>...and it is unique to you!<P>------------------------------------------<P>Now about your daughters...<P>You really have to let them define their own relationships with their dad.<P>I hate having my kids go over their mom's...<BR>...and be exposed to a continued adulterous situation...<BR>but... that's what I have to put up with...<P>If your Ds are really of the opinion that they too want "no contact" with their dad...<BR>...don't let it be to try and get him back!<P>One of the goals of Plan B for a FS(faithful spouse) is to deliberately grow apart... so in time you can find a new relationship!!!<P>That goal makes no sense for your Ds...<BR>...they should/could not find a new dad<BR>...he is their dad forever.<P>Sure they can disagree with what their dad is doing...<BR>...but a better approach...<BR>...(and it helps you too)...<BR>...is for them to be the messengers to their father... that he is doing wrong!<P>You can't do this... because it is a huge LB...<BR>They can get away with it...<BR>...since their relationship (just by it's nature) is more permanent (by civil law... not moral law).<P>Could/should they be in full-blown "no contact".... <B>NO</B>!<BR>But can they see him (with out the OW being around)... <B>YES</B>...<BR>They can make that a condition...<BR>...(we all know that most "love" is conditional)<P>Could/should they speak highly of you...<BR>..<B>YOU BET</B>...<P>Them saying you're doing well...<BR>...that they've seen changes in you<BR>...that you are making it through this with flying colors<BR>...that your strength would allow for a reconciliation... but who knows for how long the love bank won't be competely empty!<P><B>They</B> can educate him on MB concepts!!!<BR><B>You</B> can't!<P>Make sure when they write (if they write)...<BR>They understand how not to do big LBs to their dad...<BR>...even though they can get away with more<BR>...they need to check themselves sometimes<P>-------------------------------------------<P>I'm usually around for review of any Plan B letter...<BR>...feel free to e-mail me... or just post to everyone.<P>-------------------------------------------<P>I hope this has helped you...<BR>...in understanding some more of the MB Plan B concepts.<P> <P>Jim

Hope,<P>I think NSR is excellent. Don't back off Plan B, unless your WS meets your conditions. <P>I never really did Plan B, whenever I was getting ready I would let WS talk me out of it. It was a mistake. The things that have happened in the last 6 mths. have virtually killed the little remaining love I still had for my WS. Don't let it happen to you. Stay strong.<P>Let your D's set the rules with their Dad. Let them let him know it is their decision, while you may back them, it is their right & their decision. My 16 yr. S, told me that if/when his father & I went to court, he would set his plan with his D & their would be no contact with OW, if his D wanted to see him, he have to met him with out her.<P>Good luck, prayers being sent your way.

Hope,<BR>Sorry to get back to you so late. Well you know my story is the formula story. Wife learns of A, H denies it, then admits a "friendship" then admits affair, swears it is over (yet they work together, and he refuses to quit job) he reverts back to OW, W insists on counseling, H attends reluctantly to the point that W gives up... and now H has taken a job 3000 miles away and has decided that this is his opportunity to escape (although when he left he gave a profound, academy award winning speech on his wedding band and eternal marriage to me etc etc) <BR>I told him last week that since he won't come home then I don't want to talk to him. If he wants to talk to me, for real and not for 2 minutes on his cell phone leaving or going to work, then forget it. <BR>I must say that this month has left me much stronger, yes I miss him, but not the him he has become...I miss the old him, but the thing that this time and distance has shown me is that while I thought I had lost myself this past year, I only misplaced her. She is back and stronger than ever. It's tough when you are used to having someone to do things with all the time. But I am getting over that. I am decorating the house like I want it, I eat what I want, when I want, and I rent movies and go to bed when I want, marriage is such a compromise on so many different levels, sometimes it is nice to stop working...I have worked so damn hard this past year...I deserve the time off...whether this is the demise of my marriage or not...I needed for him to go away. If he can come back and truly work on the marriage and try and meet my EN that he hasn't even begun to meet this past year or so, then maybe I will risk it...but I am not placing a bet on this one...I think my H is very weak and has run for the hills...or beaches as it were and I will probably get a letter in a month or so stating he wants a divorce. I will cross that bridge when I get to it...until then, let us all get through the holidays and to be honest, I am partying hard on new years eve...a year I am happy to say good bye to...bring on 2001...<P>I agree with Jim as well about separating your relationship with your H from your daughters relationship with their father. It was hard for my friend. She took it hard...(an understatment for all of us that have gone through this) but to this day she refuses to speak to her father. The major dilemma is that her sister has worked through her anger and is planning to get married and the father will be invited...it's up to my friend to decide if putting energy into hating her father is worth it...It's such a shame...you know she is the one who opened my eyes to my H...she feels so bad about that too...but she saw the signs that her mother saw too...but didn't draw conclusions or connections...while it was hard for her to see me go through this pain, she has been my rock...we all are so fortunate to have friends and family who can fill our EN in different ways...I feel bad for those who are not near family or friends during times like these...but then again, we do have this forum, which has also been a rock for me...<P>OK I will stop being so darn dramatic...but I wanted to get back with you. We will make it through this, one way or the other. <BR>Have a good evening.<BR>CP

Dear All, <P>Thanks for your many replies. <P>I am in a tough corner. My daughters don’t trust their father. They want him but they don’t want her. I asked the youngest on Friday night if she would like her Dad back and she said no. She missed him but she didn’t want to return to a situation where he could hurt her again. <P>Do affairs really blind a man so much to the unconditional love of his children?<P>They have his cell phone number, and know they can phone him at any time. The problem is that when he is with OW the phone is switched off. They know that and so have never bothered in the past to ring him on that number. Also, there is a possibility, from a remark made by him that she may be pregnant. She is in her early 40’s but has never had kids. They see him having a new family as the ultimate betrayal. This is all unconfirmed. I have never met her and know no one that knows her.<P>As for myself, I think my husband has already seen the changes in me. He describes my transformation as ‘truly impressive’. The closest he will ever get to a compliment. <P>Jim - we have had the discussion about what went wrong in our marriage. We both admitted our faults. He is a workaholic. Because he worked so much I felt starved of any affection. Our sex life went down the pan. My real fear is that he may have given up any hope. In the summer when he was back for 8 weeks, he felt he couldn’t get that in love feeling back. He was still seeing her and sleeping with her during this period so it is not surprising. <P>My last hope is that the affair will end. I still feel that there is enough of a bond left for him to consider returning. That conversation last week proved that to me. <P>Maybe what I need is success stories to keep me going.<P>I am sending him another letter tomorrow. In it I have repeated that we all miss and love him very much. I have also said that if he feels we can have another conversation like we did last week than he is free to phone me again. <P>Going to bed now to say my nightly prayer, ‘Please God help me to reunite my family and if You cannot do that, to give us the strength to get through this.<P>Sleep tight.<P>Hope<BR>