I'd like some opinions on the next phase of my situation, now that wife has been out for a month and we have just started joint custody of the kids.<P>I feel like pulling back a bit and not trying to meet ENs much, not call her much, just be busy for me when I'm alone, and be busy with the kids when I have them. Maybe send the odd card, tell her I miss her the odd time, initiate some family activities, but let her come to me for the most part. Let her experience life alone and see that I'm doing fine. Does that sound good, or do you think full steam ahead with EN meeting, call her, etc. Pretty tough anyway from a distance.<P>Our old neighbors were quite close with us, and when this all started, wife and I agreed not to involve them, since we were a close foursome (ie. don't taint anything). They took my wife out to dinner in July (virtual separation started June 1), then invited me out a few weeks later. Wife went ballistic, and said they have no right doing that...she said that since her and the woman kicked off the foursome friendship, they are effectively her friends and me and the husband are "add-ons". So I didn't go for dinner. Eventually, I talked with these friends, and they said something like "I hope you know what you are up against". It all came out then....my wife confided in them in July about being nuts over OM, asked the friend if she'd be her maid of honor if they got married (can you say fog?), and told them that OM was asking if she'd have his children even though my wife has 2 already. This was before OMs parents said they'd disown him if he got involved with my wife. Anyway, at this point I knew why my wife was so desperate for me not to have dinner with them. Here is my question. As I start to have my own life when I'm alone, I figure I should spend time with people I like. I would like to see these friends. They've laid low and just told me they are there if I need them, they understand the situation. If my wife knows, that will be an LB to her, big one probably, and may make her more determined to cut off all aspects of former life. But on the other hand, it might make her realize that her bubble she lives in and tries to control is not all under her control. What do you think...see them and don't tell her, do tell her, or just lay low on that because of LB. I lean towards telling her and let her sweat it out. An aside, my wife was apparently shocked that they weren't happy for her when she told them about OM, instead the woman gave my wife a lecture about what a fool she was, and to snap out of it. My wife told them her mother was happy for her and had wife and OM for dinner, which was a complete lie....me and MIL are very close.<P>Also, I'm wondering if a Plan A letter is in order, just to instill in my wifes head the things I want her to know that she doesn't always want to get in conversation about. Maybe a little inkling of me not waiting forever also, cause I never say it that way, I just say I'm committed and will be here for her.<P>Here is another silly one. I once wrote a long love poem about how much I loved her and the kids, and how they were my world, mounted it on a thin board, cut it into a puzzle, and gave it to her. When she cleaned out her drawer and took her stuff, all that remains in one drawer is that poem puzzle, and a few other mementos. Should I send this to her just so she can read it? Or just forget it for now.<P>Sorry this is so long. Any feedback appreciated. If you have any Plan A ideas I'd love to hear them. Thanks very much.<BR>

Rick...<P>You're starting to inspire me to write my next in the series "Plan A - 201". <P>IMHO... do what <B>you</B> feel comfortable in... as you continue your Plan A!<P>If you get vehement rejections from your W... in whatever you offer to meet her needs...<BR>...stop!<P>I had to stop very early on...<BR>...which makes my Plan A that much less effective<BR>...hence the pending divorce!<P>If you can keep on going... do so!!!<P>You'll know when Plan B is near...<BR>...I promise...<P>Stick to Plan A...<BR>...especially through the holidays!<P>The high ground is the right ground!<P> <P>Jim

Thanks Jim. Your posts are always right to the point and so wise. Kind of like every word is important as you read it. Thanks.

Your approach would be successful for many<BR>individuals but based on your messages it<BR>has for you become clearly counterproductive. The more you say and write your wife that you<BR>love her, the more you are in fact suffocating her. There is a reason that she<BR>left your puzzle when she left. She tells you<BR>who you can be friends with and you accept<BR>this and turn down their invitation for dinner. She is still allowed to control your<BR>life? I am afraid she sees you a backup. She knows that no matter how disrespecting her actions are towards you, you are always there<BR>to tell her your love and want her. How can<BR>she respect you if she knows she can do anything in her life sexually with someone else and you tell her you love her no matter what. You sound like a great guy but there seems to be no ramifications to her actions.<BR>There seems to be no limit to what she can do <BR>and you will be there to write love poems to her. I know this sounds harsh but it seems that these actions of yours make you look weak and needy. She can dictate who your friends will be and you accept this for fear<BR>of hurting her feelings? You must make your wife respect you and how you are acting is<BR>doing just the opposite. Think of all of your <BR>actions and you will see she is moving further and further away from you. I strongly believe if she thought you were willing to move on with your life without her; the chances are greater that she may come to her senses. She will continue in the fog because she is allowed to dictate her life as well as your and knows that you will always be there to pick up the pieces. I believe that it is human nature that people never appreciate what they have until they are on the verge of losing it. I wish you luck my friend.

Rick - I don't think I can add any more to what you've already gotten on this one - I'll apply some of it myself. I think we're in this middle ground between Plans A & B. Maybe Plan S - separated.<P>In short, we have to be our own men. Show them life goes on for us and don't kiss their butts. We've already shown them the "kill 'em with kindness" part. They won't forget. Maybe now's the time to lighten up and let them try to get everything independently - the Plan B part - while still being available if they come to us for something reasonable. What do you think?<P>WAT

Hi --- Sounds like I'm in the same boat as you guys. WS moved out last week to an apartment in OM's town (40 min away). No formal separation yet, we informally agreed on who is paying what for now, and how we'll handle our 3 kids.<P>She claims its just an EA, not PA. But it is too weird she's moving so far, to his town. Just before she moved out I asked for and received her checkbook, and canceled all our joint credit cards. You have to protect yourself and your sanity. <P>Sounds like we're in a somewhat similar situation, so here is my approach so far...<P>- Still doing Plan A (lite) when she's around or on the phone<BR>- Divided all our finances, and organized my affairs in case I need to take them to an attorney<BR>- Dropped 20 pds, improved my fitness, eliminated LBs pertaining to my past behavior which I now recognize<BR>- Gave her space although it drives me crazy to think she's there with him<BR>- Did internet searches on separation and divorce in case it comes to that<BR>- Found several attorney locator services<BR>- Maintaining self confidence and self control, especially when she is around<BR>- Bought some new clothes and updated my old Volvo to a sportier make/model<BR>- Made myself more unavailable to her phone calls when I'm here alone... let her wonder what I'm up to since she chose to leave<P>Mainly Plan A items, with some Plan B thrown in since she went the separation path. With kids its hard to do a full Plan B, but I think with her out and having her own finances, etc. it is fairly close. In my case, it may be she needs to feel in control of her life, and that the decision to be in the relationship is because she wants to, not because she has to.<P>Good luck, and keep us posted...<P>Survivin<p>[This message has been edited by Survivin (edited December 03, 2000).]

Survivin - sounds like you're in control of your life as much as you can be. What's the arrangement with your kids? Their ages?<P>Good luck and let's keep up with all the separated guys. We can all bootstrap off of each other since our wives are all reading the same script.<P>WAT

WAT,<BR>I suspected from some of your words that you are in a technical field like myself (engineer), and with the "bootstrap" statement, that must be accurate! I figure that explains my own level of analysis.<P>I only have a second here, but I'm of the same thoughts as you guys....Plan A while in contact, but being less available and working on being myself. I'll get back again later.<P>

Rick - yup, Engineer. Gotta figure everything out. See what makes it work. Right now it's mostly in several black boxes, but we get a peek inside one once in a while.<P>WAT

Rick37,<BR> I would have to agree with Bryanp. When I changed my attituide with H and showed him what he had to lose thats when he changed. He told me at one point that he was not afraid of losing me. That really hurt me, but now I see why. I know my plan A was what was needed for the time I did it, but when I was getting no where I had to change gears for myself. I was going crazy and he was here with us doing what ever he wanted to do. When he told me he was leaving and I said when instead of begging him not he wasn`t sure what to think. The plan was that at the end of the week he would go. The first night he slept on the couch, the next day I didn`t say much to him that night he slept with me. By thurs. he was just going to think for awhile, Fri. he wanted to work it out. My reaction was I`m not sure at this point I want you to stay. Come Mon. he wrote a no contact letter. I had conditions for him if he wanted to stay. The letter was #1, counseling with Steve was #2 and I had several others. We are talking with Steve and he has done most of the others. Thanks to MB I found the strength to do what I had been to afraid to do before.I do feel that if I would have done it before this, he would have left with no problem. I`m glad I found MB and plan Aed as long as I did. I had just had enough by the time he said he was leaving. My attitude was see ya and he didn`t know how to react. I thank God everyday he reacted the way he did, but I would have survived if he hadn`t. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you.<BR> good luck and<BR> God bless

WS works 24 hour shifts (with OM sometimes - doh!)... so I get the kids 2 nights and she gets them 1. I'm hoping that a couple good doses of having 3 kids around (they are 9 and twin 3-year-olds) will make the young OM run for the hills. He is 7 yrs younger than my WS.<P>I'm thinking that a part of this for her is a MLC... she was stressing about turning 33 in November. She also pressured us to trade in the minivan for a sporty SUV. Unhappy about a host of things and then here comes the OM to serve as a bridge and facilitator. ... of course, he is mainly only seeing her without the kids, and she is getting 1-on-1 time from him which she craves. Hoping this little fantasy bursts soon..........<p>[This message has been edited by Survivin (edited December 03, 2000).]

It is like we are in a board game, just a few squares from each other. Call it Affairs and MLC.<P>My wife used to love our minivan, but this spring started liking our car better, and now wants to have a new vehicle and dump the van. She became increasingly wrestless this year (before all this) about not having lived the singles life when younger, not having gone to university, etc. She was stay at home mom. Started working, getting new friends, and the rest is history. She was obviously unhappy because we didn't have much affection going on, doing our own things, but when I asked, she always told me it was her hormones, and she was happy. Oh well. Live and learn. We just moved into a beautiful new home that we had built last August, all custom colors, some new furniture, and it was just what my wife wanted in a house. Then boom, suddenly this spring it isn't important anymore. Guess that is what "love" does to you. <P>I'm seeing it the same way as you club members see it. Plan A light when talking, but do whatever I can to make my life wholesome and complete, independent, etc. I don't look forward to the days when my kids aren't here, but that will be the slice of time I have to work on a better me. I don't have alot of plans yet, but will show her that the house decorating goes on without her, get a few new things, some more new clothes, maybe take a course or something. I was actually thinking some sort of gourmet cooking course (go ahead and laugh).<P>Any good ideas for the Plan A/B Hybrid solution?<P><BR>

I am really in agreement that you have to find some middle ground between Plan A/B when they move out. Plan B with little kids would be really rough, but you need to do something to help yourself survive and pull a little mantle of dignity back around you. <P>But, having said that, I have been second-guessing myself all weekend because I gently insisted that this first non-holiday weekend since H left be my weekend with the kids. To make it easier on him because he is traumatized over not seeing the kids everyday, I invited H to suppper tonight to see the kids. What did I get in return? He left town for the weekend and of course my weekend was further ruined because I have been picturing H with OW the whole weekend. (I don't know if H is really with her, but it does seem likely.) Since I still believe that the A until this point was only emotional, I feel that I may have driven H into her arms.<P>You know what is so crappy about all this? We all sit for hours analyzing our moves our WS's moves etc. and tiptoe around being so careful and our WSs act almost totally on impulse with no thought of anyone but themselves. (Can you tell my patience is running out?)

I find it helpful to think to myself sometimes, "If she is fool enough to walk out, then so be it." <P>Focus on all the attributes that make you a good catch... education, sensitivity, good Dad, nice home, etc..... we are very marketable! <P>Also, if you were to look for another mate, what (improved, different, or desirable)qualities would you look for this time around? Make a list.<P>Don't wallow in self pity or doubt because we don't deserve it.... and if necessary we will build a better life than even what we had before, because now we are wiser... a fact that they may not be around to learn, but it will be their loss.<P><<sitting taller in chair>><P>It is THEY that should fear losing our newfound selves! And they had better act fast or their opportunity will pass them by - - -<P>

Thanks.<P>Exhausted: I know how you feel. I hope you read Survivin's message because he has a great outlook. Do things for you and try and block out thoughts of H and OW...even though it is hard.<P>Survivin,<P>Very well spoken. You seem to be doing well, and have a great outlook on this. I think the fog will clear in your house.

Rick, WAT,<P>Well, add me to the list of engineers .<P>Anyway, Rick, I think you got lots of good advice already. I'd say keep the Plan A while separated, but without smothering. Be cheerful, friendly, and positive, but don't pursue her with cards and flowers. Let her get a taste of reality, and show her that you are OK with her or without her.<P>Good luck.<P>PS. What kind of engineer? <P>AGG

Electrical, but more into software, networks, optical now. How about you guys?

Aerospace.

Nuke

Something occurred to me this morning. I was reading this thread, and started thinking about something my counselor told me about my H's A's. She said that so far there have been absolutely no consequences for him after he has these affairs. He has one, gets caught, quits, acts like he's sorry, learned his lesson, blah, blah, blah; and then next time he's bored does it again. Why? Because there is absolutely nothing in way of a consequence that makes him the least bit uncomfortable. <P>Now while I was thinking of that this morning I had a flashback to a very basic high school science class. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Basic law of science. Maybe that's a bit of the problem in many of these situations. We're breaking, or attempting to, a law of nature. <P>Spouse has an affair. In return BS does everything they can to become a better spouse/person. WS decides to move out to "think" or "clear their head", shirks parenting and financial responsibilities. BS takes over all parenting duties, covers them financially, helps them find or pay for another home and promises undieing love. <P>I don't know, but it doesn't quite make the "equal and opposite reaction" to me. Ok, it meets opposite, but not equal. lol<P>I think these WS's need to start dealing with the "natural" consequences to their actions. You move out of the marriage home, you suffer financially. You're still responsible for your portion of the marital bills, and completely responsible for all bills in your new "home". You don't want to be a married parent anymore, well welcome to the not real fun world of single parenting. Taking care of the kids half the time alone. Schedule everything around YOUR visitation. No shoulder to lean on. Want to be seperated? Well people find out about seperations: parents, siblings, neighbors, coworkers, friends. They may not agree with your choices, and may not side with you and tell you what a wonderful decision you've made. Deal with it, ALONE!!!! Don't want to be a family anymore? Well, don't count on nice family holidays anymore. We'll have ours at home and with extended family as usual. You can have yours in your new home, ALONE, and by the way you can pay for it yourself too. (Did I mention that a woman's credit rating often suffers due to divorce?)<P>I think it's time that these WS's take a course: "You've Screwed up Big Time, Deal With It, 101". I think all of you thinking about pulling back some are on the right track. You've Plan A'd your heart out, now it's time for them to see what life in their new world is really like, and that life in our world keeps on going. There's consequences to the choices we make in life, it's about time they started experiencing them.