Today, during one conversation with my WS wife, she made various statements, some good, some bad. But one was "will your parents resent me if we work this out?". I said no, because I don't give them any details. She responded with, "well, I have not done anything wrong". Now, it is hard to not start spouting off the things wrong. Affair, lying, not spending time with children, etc. My question is:<P>Has she convinced herself that she hasn't done anything wrong, or is this just another lie, hoping that I don't know the truth. It is perplexing.<P>I believe that her scapegoat is that on June 1, she said "I'm not happy, we are separating". Even though didn't move till Nov. 1, PA started sometime in July, I believe. May 31, had 45 minute call with OM. June 1, a few calls, and this continued and increased between then and now. A 45 minute call the day before telling me she wanted to separate, with another man that she eventually slept with, is certainly an affair, right? That call is my way of marking the definite EA start, if ever the fog lifts and she denies this stuff. I'm sure she was tingly even before that....they had started communicating in April.<P>One other question: I get this "if we work it out" at least once a week now. I never ask questions about it. Should I ever respond with something, like "how would it work out when you [have OM], or [don't want to work on it]...whatever? I'm guessing it goes nowhere.<P>And another one: If she ever comes out of the fog, what about these single friends that she has hung out with for the past 8 months. In addition to no contact with OM, I'd like her to dump all these "new friends". What have others experienced. I'm nowhere near any of this, but think about it sometimes.<P>Thanks.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited December 05, 2000).]

Rick - I think she's a fence sitter. I used to get a little of "in case we work it out", but no more. Anyway, I recommend you continue to just file these away and don't respond unless she asks you a question, then I'd play it cool with something neutral, like, "It depends." As you know it doesn't "work out" immediately and a lot of work has to be done - including no more contact with OM. So I advise against immediately jumping in with no more contact. In my situation, if we ever get close to working in out, I expect she would stay in her apartment for awhile until we're sure we have a good shot at it. If she moves back in, our one year clock starts over for the mandatory waiting period for divorce (in Maryland).<P>WAT

Rick:<P>Only your WS really knows what's in her head. And if she's anything like I was when I was in the middle of my EA, she may not even know that. I rationalized constantly to myself about why this incredibly intense, sexually-charged "friendship" with the OW was okay and how I could handle it. My emotions were saying one thing that I found unpalatable (because it made me look like the cheating schmuck I was), so my head groped for a way around it. Could be the same thing is going on with your W.<P>It sounds to me as though your W is trying to sort through for herself the various consequences that might spin out depending on how the situation with you works out. That might be a good thing, in the sense that she's at least contemplating the possibility that your marriage isn't over and wondering how to put it back together. It also might be a bad thing, in the sense that she might be trying to "talk herself into" the idea that the consequences would be too severe (with friends, family, you, etc.) if she tried to make a go of it, thereby justifying her A and a D from you.<P>If you can, try not to get too involved in the precise details of what happened when, and what qualified as an EA and when, and so forth. The main issue here is that your W felt that her ENs weren't getting met. That could have been going on for a long time before she turned to someone else to fulfill them. And the only thing that's going to put things right between you is if you both feel that your ENs can get met best with each other than with someone else. Having caused this kind of pain myself, I can imagine how hard it must be to let go of the details of the A, but you've got to try (and I know that you have been, and have been doing a great job, and that it's been made much harder by her constant denials of what you know to be true).<P>The Harley-ites on the board probably would say that calling attention to her A or her unwillingness to work on the marriage is a "LB" and inconsistent with "Plan A", etc. But it seems to me that over the past few weeks, you two have moved to a different stage -- she's left you. You shouldn't be unkind, or mean, but I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing if, when she talked about what might happen if you "ever worked things out", you mentioned something along the lines of how that seemed a distant possibility given the current situation, or how you guys weren't even trying to work anything out, currently, before answering her question.<P>Really the only way you'll be able to salvage things is if she comes to her senses and cuts off all contact with the OM. My sense is that if that happens, the contact with the single friends will gradually dry up as well.<P>Take care, Rick. I know things are tough right now for you and your family. But you're a strong guy and are doing the best you can. Good luck to you.

Hey Rick,<P>WS will have all sorts of reasons to justify the affair. We have heard them all. They don't see things clearly while in that "fog". When she comes out of it and realizes the gravity of what she has done, she won't be using that line anymore. My guess is that she will feel an incredible amount of shame and remorse. It's in our female nature to do that.<BR>She's obvioulsy contemplating things between the two of you. That's good. That's what my H was doing before he decided to end it with the OW. It took a couple of months for things to be over between them but after he mulled things over in his head (I had a great plan A), he ended things. <BR>Those new "friends" of hers are a necessary support for her new lifestyle. They don't say, "What you are doing is wrong". When she comes out of the fog, those friends won't be so appealing anymore. They probably wont be interested in her either. I wouldnt even bother suggesting she drop them. That will happen on its own.<BR>Next time she mentions "if you work out", tell her that it can work out! Tell her in a non love busting way what needs to happen(no contact, move home) and what YOU are willing to do for her. I can tell you that as a BS, I have as much work to do as my H does. It took us many years to get to this place.<BR>I feel that if you start dumping on her about what she has done etc... this will only reaffirm her belief that things can not work between the two of you. I can't stress that enough. I know how painful it is. I felt it deep within myself. If you want her back thats how you have to approach it, even if you have to hang up the phone and kick the air.<P>take care, Rick<P>cleo