Dying;<BR>I don't blame you, it is already done, I believe when you are committed to a person, with or without a paper signed by a man, you need to honor that committment. I didn't send the OW a letter I called her, left no doubt in her mind that I would take a week off and drive the 900 miles and stomp the ever loving Sh** out of her. My H was sitting right beside me. When you play the game you should be prepared to take the conseqences. If I did it I would expect to meet with opposistion. May sound mean but oh well, I think an A is pretty low too. My H and I are well on the way to recovering from this, but it does not mean that I condone what happened. The OW was married also(at least from all of the signs I believe she is). We have had no contact but it is easier because she was a total stranger off of the net. If she is ever stupid enough to contact she will see that I will stand behind my word. Jenni Sorry but I had to vent.

Thank you survivor and harddaynight. I'm glad someone sees things my way.<BR>As for YOU discarded it is hard to tell where you are coming from since you at the same time use what you think the bible says against me and yet criticse christians at the same time. I don't care what you say because i know I am right biblically speaking. You hated the fundamentalism you were raised with? Well i can see why because - as fundamentalism often is - it was incorrect in its interpretation of the bible. what you have to say saounds exactly like the narrowminded bullsh** I grew up with in churches and at school.. but not my parents and they are why I still call myself a christian. My father who is extremely devout and knows the bible inside and out and even reads the Greek and Hebrew interlinear versions so as to understand precise meanings of words agrees with my opinion. My brother just moved in with his girlfriend and my father always reminds him that he considers them married.<BR>Now as for what the Bible actually has to say itself - the Bible is a different thing from baptist or Presbyterian or catholic dogma - all sects have come up with their own rites, interpretations etc. Baptists don't drink but catholics do - jesus used to drink wine all he told people to do was no to be drunk... <BR>Here's a quote pertinent to MY situation<BR>matthew 1: 18-20<BR>When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. <BR>Then Joseph her HUSBAND, (they were engaged but the Bible uses the word husband) being a just man and not willing to make her a public example (she would have been stoned for ADULTERY) was minded to put her away (divorce her) privily. But while he thought on these things behold the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream saying, Joseph thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy WIFE(again though they were only engaged she was already called his WIFE): for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.<BR>I don't think I need any other biblical proof but also if you look at the Old Testament which christians sometimes ignore it makes it clear that if a couple is caught sleeping together outside of marriage and one of them is betrothed to someone else then they are both to be stoned (which is what would have happened to Mary if Joseph had not been a kind man) because it is adultery. If an uncommited couple (to each otheror to others) are caught sleeping with each other then their punishment was that they were to marry each other. So in the Law laid down by God for the children of israel an engaged person sleeping with someone else was adultery. Of course when Jesus came he died for peoples sins so they no longer had to pay these terrible prices for their sins. He and the disciples disciples also laid down restrictions on divorce and Marriage. But God's opinion of such sins remains the same. furthermore in the case of Mary everyone assumed it was Joseph's child since he kept her and therefore it was not considered bad. <BR>People, including christians don't get it Sex is a beautiful thing that god created to be a sacred bond between one woman and one man. All different religions and cultures have different views of what a wedding is but the one thing that is in common is that it culminates with the couple sleeping with each other - that is the God made bond between them. I slept with my fiance because and only because we were already engaged and I had no intention of marrying anyone else or leaving him. As far as i was concerned i was his wife from that moment and in God's eyes I know I was too and the bible's own words support my view. I don't care what the Baptist's view is on this and I don't care what the catholics think but I do care what God thinks. i would recommend though that a person save it until after the legal wedding since there are so many narrowminded people out there and since (as in my case) you limit your options once you take that step. if I had not slept with him and I had found out what he did before the legal marriage I would have felt more free to leave him but after having cemented our union in God's eyes I would not have felt so free to do so. I am not trying to find ways to justify myself this is the interpretation of the Bible that I have been raised with and I feel given what is actually written it is a more accurate one than I hear elsewhere. I resent the implication that your pain is more valid than mine. I do not doubt that your pain is greater because you lost your husband to the OW after investing a lifetime. from the pain i feel I can only imagine how bad yours is and I know it must be terrible. My Husband only had a one night stand which he is very ashamed of and hasn't looked back at her since. He is wrong for betraying his commitment but she is wrong also and I know she manipulated the situation so it came to a head in this way. Her intentions then were the same as they are now - to destroy someone else's union (by the way in their culture breaking off an engagement is a very bad thing that makes the family of the one breaking it lose face and is only done for a very good reason) and those are and were adulterous intentions. Also try to realise that this girl is not YOUR daughter. I hope and I'm sure that your daughter is a very nice girl who could never dream of doing something like this and I'm sure she is still a virgin for all the right reasons and as such would never use her virginity in such a way.<BR>One more comment to some of you who talk about your terrible hate for the OW as if it is okay but How I shouldn't have written to her. Well my writing achieved some results and also hating someone is a sin too. and god tells us to forgive our enemies and pray FOR them - not pray that they be punished. I am completely wrong in this respect. I know it. Yes she deserves my hate but I ought to forgive her anyway. But I am not pretending that I don't hate her until the day comes that I actually don't. <BR>

One more thing don't compare me to Mormons who have written (or according to them discovered) a Holy Book in addition to the Bible (Book of Mormon) on which they base their beliefs. it's like comparing Islam and christianity. Of course they believe something else - they belong to a different religion.

One more thing....<BR>for all those who seem to think she was innocent and deceived because she was a virgin lets just compare the two of them shall we.<P>He remained a virgin until the age of 24 which is unsual for a guy in any culture. and it was not for lack of interested females - i've already recounted one story about him and a former girlfriend but on top of that he had so many other girls after him. He was extremely popular with girls. He is a very charming person. If he was a skirt chaser he could have convinced many girls to do it with him. also his culture has a big double standard where guys don't feel ashamed to do it before marriage and i've heard many stupid girls there talk about how they wouldn't want to marry a virgin they want an experienced man. he lost his virginity to his fiancee and not right away either. we both held back for a long time. so why when he is engaged to be married to someone he loved and who he says is the "most beautiful girl he knows" would he suddenly decide to chase an unattractive wierdo when if he wanted a fling he could've had one with many other much more attractive girls who also liked one? That was only his second encounter so he was almost a virgin himself - hardly a sexpert.<BR>Now let us look at her she lost her virginity at the age of 22 - younger than he was and he is a guy) to someone she knew was engaged and who according to all accounts (other people's not his) SHE was chasing. I think that shows that he probably was not after her and it just happened. He was not aware of half of the things she did to get closer and closer to him. I've found many things out from other people.<BR>I don't think he wronged her - he wronged me and he wronged himself and his relationship. it is unusual for a guy to enter into marriage a virgin and it could have been beautiful just me and him forever. <BR>if I had thought of this earlier it would have helped me believe him. <BR>

dying inside,<P>virginity and religion really aren't the issues here. Yes, they have been brought up. Isn't the reason you came here because you have a problem and need some help or support? I know that's why I am here. The screen name you chose suggests that you are really hurting and I assume that is why you are here. You sound so defensive. You don't have to be. Nobody here is attacking you. They are just opinions. Some you may be able to use, others maybe not.<BR>I agree. This woman is way out there. Its obvious. If you want to talk about how to work past what you are feeling then lets do it. Don't worry about addressing every side issue that comes up. We all have our own views on religion and not everyone will agree. I think we all do agree, at this point, that the OW is *bad news*.

cleopatra,<BR>i certainly did not write in with intention of feeling like I have to defend myself against people's preconceptions of virginity and religion. I did not bring up either topic. yes my letter mentioned that she was one but I didn't expect to have many of you out there defend her actions because she was one. I believe you were one of the ones who seemed to think she is some misguided innocent. And I'm sorry when some of you are insensitive enough to compare my sleeping with my fiance with her chasing and sleeping with my fiance and throw your misconceptions of the Bible in my face I will respond. <BR>Yes I am dying inside. Why? because it hurts even if my husband was tricked/seduced by her it still hurts. Maybe it hurts me more than it would hurt someone else in my same situation (but reading jsg's post I think my feelings are normal) because I have an obsessive personality. You all amde an issue out of her virginity not me. I'm the one who knows her and my husband both. even though most of me believes him there will always be a part of me that will question everything because that is the way I am so that is why I am dying inside because I dread feeling insecure for the rest of my life. He has done nothing since we have been married to make me feel insecure but still I do just because of this one incident that happened. I know he does not want her. he hates her and the mess she helped him make out of his 'dream marriage.' I also know he never wanted her no guy from his culture would take the virginity of someone he loved and forget her like that. <BR>and as far as the hate I am feeling towards her is concerned It is wrong but it is justified 100% she was not deceived and it bothers me that you all assume that because I believe him on this I am defending him more than I should. Should I believe someone who has hated me from before they met me or should I believe someone who loves me plus numerous other people who are unbiased either way. I am not denying that he caused me pain and that no matter what she did she couldn't have harmed me if he had not gone along with it ev if only for a few minutes, but i will denfend him against all of your assumptions that he is some lowlife skirt chasing virgin deceiving a**hole playboy. I think his behaviour overall and before and after that implies otherwise. If you all don't want to discuss such things don't bring them up. <BR>i wrote in because I wanted to know if ther is some way to deal with the doubt that is natural to feel even if he is telling the truth. <BR>And as for my letter to her i posted it because I think in some cases certain types of OW need to hear the cold hard facts. I don't believe she is suffering heart break and pain. I know because I AM and she doesn't exhibit any of the symptoms. My pain is written all over my face. I've lost a tremendous amount of weight. I have panic attacks I don't feel like doing anything I used to do. 'Fun' things make me sad. I don't like to remember the past. She is fat and happy. She participates in fashion shows (what a great model she must make) dance competitions, laughs, dates, goes out partying, sleeps around and she even tried to cozy up to his brother (when he was also engaged - luckily he is extremely reserved so she wasn't successful there.) And she is proud of the past and enjoys talking about what she did. As I said before i think it makes her feel desireable.<BR>So, yes I know my letter was harsh but not as harsh as it could have been. and yes I know ideally I should forgive but I still think I was right to send that to her. You'd think that the guy marrying someone else and having nothing to do with her would be a clue to give it up, or him telling her he loves me and she should move on or us having a child should have appealed to some sense of decency if she had any but no so I did what I could to drive the message home and it appears to have worked better than anything has previously.<P><BR>

Sorry i know I sounded defensive again but is it really necessary to post opinions which you know cannot help in anyway. How does it help me to have someone tell me their rather insensitive opinion that I have fornicated too and he only committed fornicaton and she must be an innocent just because some of you have innocent daughters out there. I'm someone's daughter and I'd never do what she did. and he is someone's son. I felt a strong implication (not from all of you) that I somehow Don't have a right to be angry or feel pain. I think that is quite low and also incorrect. And it can't help me - thank you very much it only makes me feel worse. I had a panic attack after reading one reply in particular. I don't know why but it really hurt me.<p>[This message has been edited by dying inside (edited December 09, 2000).]

Whoa!<P>I think that we are really miscommunicating here. I'll try to clarify a few things for you here. When referring to the OW's viriginity in my first reply, I was suprised that a virgin would go after a married man. What I was implying was that she probably wasn't a virgin at the time. Obviously my message got lost in the translation.<BR>I completely agree that she is totally out of control where your situation is concerned. I don't think I had all the information initially. <BR>I made comments about the letter being counterproductive because I understood that you were very angry and wanted to get past it. I was just saying that it may cause other problems. Just my opinion and that's all.<BR>Everyone here has their own interpretations of religion. Mine is not misinterpreted, just as you think yours is not. Who are we to tell another what they bellieve is right or wrong? I certainly was NOT trying to do that to you. Again, sorry if you took it that way.<BR>I also feel that no one here has said that it was all your H and that he is no good, etc.. I think what they were trying to say is that both are consenting adults and nobody held a gun to their heads. I NEVER made any fornicating comment about you and your fiance. That is your business.<BR>No one here would suggest that you do not have the right to feel anger and pain. We are all here because of the same reason and we all have felt anger and pain. <BR>My posts were not meant to be opinions which I knew "would not help anyway". I was attempting to get through all of the information you posted and ask questions of you to clarify what you meant so that I could give you *useful* information. <P>In your next to last post you stated that you wanted to know if there was some way to deal with the doubt. THAT, I can give solid advice on. Take or leave it. I had so much doubt in the beginning. I am 6months into recovery now. I let my H know what things triggered doubt. He did his best to modify any behaviors that triggered it. He also makes frequent call home during the day and lets me know he schedule at all times. When there is a last minute change, he calls to let me know. There is also no contact in any way with the OW. He has also answered all of my questions regarding what went on. I hope that you can use some of this in your relationship. I can tell you that with him doing these things, I have felt so much more peaceful.<P>take care<BR>cleo<P><p>[This message has been edited by cleopatra (edited December 09, 2000).]

I supose I have a good reason to send letter or make tell off OM. He and his wife were our "friends". He told me he has loved my wife for years and never thought he would tell her. I told him he should have thought it through before turning everyone's life upside down. I chose to rise above what most people would want to do. I think it would make my wife feel sorry for him and mad at me. He isn't worth it. What a pity

Cleopatra,<BR>Thanks for clearing up your comment about her 'virginity.' As far as I know (i wasn't there) she was one physically but I don't believe she was spiritually or mentally. I was one until i slept with my fiance and I know what it is like to be one at heart. anyway whatever she was she did go after him - forget what he says that is what everyone else says and even what she revealed in her own letter.<BR>Secondly the religious thing was not directed at you. I think discarded was the one who was really harping on it and her comparision of me to the OW really really offended me and I did not feel that post had anything to do with helping me but more to do with her own bitterness against christians and her own ex husband. And actually in religion there must be a right and a wrong but God is to say what is right. If everyone was right then there wouldn't be any purpose in being anything (christian, muslim etc.) However for those who follow the Bible I go by what it actually says and not necessarily by the standard baptist or what have you doctrine. My belief is that sex is a very sacred thing that is not to be given out lightly and what I did with my fiance was done in all seriousness and with a firm commitment to him and our future. If I took it so lightly maybe this wouldn't hurt me so much. Discarded implied that I was trying to justify myself using the Bible and that is completely untrue. My feelings concerning sex were there before I ever slept with him. It was beside the point of why I wrote in but it bothered me enough that I felt I should reply. She seems only concerned with defending the OW as if she did nothing wrong - how would she like it if I defended her OW's actions? I'm sure I could come up with some lame a** excuse for any stupid or bad thing anyone does if I tried. That is how they (OP) let themselves do the things they do in the first place. <BR>Yes I know they were both consenting adults. If she had held a gun to his head I wouldn't be hurt I would just be angry at her. But from what I know she did over a period of several months take advantage of my absence and manipulate circumstances so that she could get close enough to him to 'pounce.' <BR>He could have refused I know. But i also know that if one is horny (for lack of a better word) and has gone without sex in a long time it is harder to control urges - or more tempting to give in. especially if the one offering is there assuring you that it won't matter and it won't hurt anyone and so on. Sometimes I hate him for what he did but I do see her as more responsible. I avoid temptation by avoiding situations that could lead to being tempted. unfortunately he is different than I am. His thinking is "if i am not attracted to her there shouldn't be any problem hanging out with her" he doesn't think far enough or deep enough to realise that sex itself (regardless of the attractiveness of the other person) can be an overpowering temptation at times. and he didn't realise how many of their coincidental meetings that led up to them being friends were actually contrived on her part. If he knew she was following him in that way I think he would have been scared off.<BR>Another comment that bothered me and it was not yours was a reference to her pain and heartbreak and how it shows that my husband is probably lying. I already addressed in an above posting her pain and heaartbreak. which I don't beleive exist. Frustration and rage at losing yes but not heartbreak.<BR>thank you for your advice on dealing with doubt. But in my case many of my doubts are about his story of what happened. I feel like I have to know everything - as much as he can remember at least - in order to trust him in the future I have to feel that he can and will tell me anything no matter how uncomfortable it makes him.<BR>Even though I do believe him on the one hand, I am also afraid that he is not telling the truth too. This is not because I have any proof that he is lying, just I think I am afraid to believe him. I am afraid to feel secure again. Before I found this out i was so secure and happy and when I found out it was like someone snatched the earth out from underneath me. I felt like everything I thought i understood and could count on (like him and his love) was all confused. this is partly due to finding out from her letter which was written in such a way as to completely belittle me and my relationship with him and as if he agreed with her. Now that is not necessarily his fault. She wrote that - not him, but since he had not found the courage to tell me himself I felt like he must agree with her. Of course since then he has told me 1000 times he does and did not ever love her and the letter is largely her crazy ideas. He has told me what is true in there and what is false but I still doubt. I can't help it. I'm afraid of believing him and then finding out something else he left out or that proves he was lying. i almost feel as if my doubt protects me... Does that make any sense to you? Like as long as i don't believe him 100% I can't be hurt as much if I find out anything else. I can only be angry but not hurt. But this doubt is also hurting me so much. I can't really blame him for it. He has answered many questions - not happily because he hates thinking about it (he says he hates her now) and he just wants to leave it behind. I think he feels stupid for falling into her trap and guilty for hurting me and even guilty that she was a virgin although he found out once it was too late and though she wanted it. My mind obsesses about every little detail. for example I'll ask him "was she your girlfriend?" and he say "no" but then I start thinking "okay maybe he is halfway lying because he knows that she wasn't officially his girlfriend since noone else was aware of it and since I actually was his girlfriend so maybe he feels he can honestly lie and say no because it was an unofficial thing or an unspoken agreement between the two of them or that they were just going out with each other (in a romantic way) without ever really discussing the nature of their relationship. Or he could even not be purposefully lying because one of the above was true and he takes only the exact meaning of my question." So then I feel compelled to ask him. "are you sure?" which immediately irritates him so he will tell me sarcastically "no I am not sure" or just get really mad so then I say something like "what I mean is were you going out with her either officially or unofficially?" And he is like "i guess not." Well then because he uses the word guess I feel suspicious. I mean why should he use that word if he knows he wasn't or is he actually unclear of what his intentions were towards her so I feel doubtful again. Then I will ask him again "are you sure?" and then he will say "what do you want from me I just told you no" and I say "no, you said I guess not" and he gets irritated and says "you even get me confused the way you talk" so then I say "okay well lets put it this way were you dating her? did you consider your lunches with her a date?" and he says "yes" and I freak out and say "so you were going out with her?!!" "and he says I told you no already" and I say "but you just said you went on dates with her" and he says "yes I had lunch dates with her" So i say "well if you go out with (a male friend) for lunch would you say you have a date with him" and he thinks and says "i don't know" so then I say okay whatabout (a friends wife) if you meet her for lunch is that a date" and he says "yes" and I say "well then when you say you consider your lunches with OW dates do you mean it in that way, do you consider lunches with friends dates?" and he says "yes" and I say "so if you go out for such dates with someone you know is only a friend and you have only friendly intentions toward them are you dating them" and he says "i guess you could say that" and I say "well in english dating implies more than just going out as friends" and he says "not the way I understand it" I say "well I am tellng you how most native english speakers would take it so in that context would you say you were dating OW" and he says "no" <BR>But I still don't feel good afterwards because I feel like maybe he was admitting that he was sort of dating her - even if it was only casually with the mutual understanding that it would lead to nothing - and my picking at words gave him an out or maybe because his first language is not english - although he speaks it very well- his understanding of word meanings is different. In school they sometimes learn a technical definition of a word and not all of the nuances that it implies when used in casual speech by native speakers. Or maybe he understands some of the nuances but not all. Like for example he would feel uncomfortable saying he was dating a guy becuase he does understand that dating is something that usually occurs between guys and girls but not feel uncomfortable referring to taking a platonic female friend out as dating because he doesn't realise that it implies he has slightly more than an outing between friends in mind. So you see i question him and everything he says and I come up with all possible explanations for what he says some of them make me feel better and some make me feel worse. <BR>If I question him too much about a particular topic he gets really mad. And lately since it has been about five months now he is tired of hearing anything to do with this so he gets angry right away. when he is angry then he says mean things like he doesn't care anymore about what he did. Once when i was suggesting that we get some sort of help - (that makes him really mad because he says he has told me everything - the truth - a thousand times and he feels we don't need it because it was a One night stand that he feels bad about and not an ongoing problem so he thinks it isn't such a big deal) he shouted "i met some girl, i slept with her before I was f***ing married to you we don't need marriage counselling" and that makes me feel again like he was lying before and that he means he did go out with her and slept with her and thought it was all fine and good and fun and didn't feel bad about it until I found out So then later i tried to tell him that the things he shouts out when he is angry make me feel bad and more suspicious. And I said "you've told me before you had no intention for what happened to happen and that you felt bad right away and told her so but when you say things like it doesn't matter you make it sound like that isn't true or maybe you're just saying things like this when you are angry to hurt me" and he looked at me exasperated and says what do you want and I say "well what do you mean - did you mean it" and he got angry again and he said "yes, I don't care" and I said "so you didn't feel bad?" and he said "no" and I said "so you think you had the right to do it?" and he said "yes" and I said "so she was your girlfriend?" and he said "yes" and I said "so you were attracted to her?" and he said "yes" and said "why?" and he said "I don't know" and I said "so you loved her?" and he said "no" and I said "Did you tell her you didn't love her?" and he said "no" and I said "so you planned for that to happen" and he said "no" and I said "so everything you have told me and everything you have been expecting me to believe an getting angry at me for questioning is a lie" and he said "i guess so" and i said "look is this the truth now or are you saying it to hurt me" and he said "its the truth" and I said "well then why did you say you would swear to everything you told me before on the Quran" and then he paused and then he said "look everything I've told you in the past five minutes is bulls*** but i am tired of you askng me the same questions all of the time i think you want me to say this since you don't believe what I tell you. I told you that if I called (OW) (he called her to tell her off after we found out she has been lying about me) that i don't want to hear anything more about this topic and I don't want to answer anymore questions." then later I told him that when he does this saying things out of anger it gives me even more to analyse in my mind and fret about, for example why if he was just trying to make me angry didn't he say he loved her too? i start worrying that he in a fit of exasperation finally told me the truth but then recanted when he thought he'd opened a whole new can of worms which would give me more to cry about and even more questions to ask him for another five months. I asked him "why do you say things like that, what do you think it will accomplish if it isn't true" and he said "i don't know, I'm so tired of you bugging me I sometimes hope it will make you go away - go back to your parents if I just say something bad" and I told him "you say it in such a believable way that even after yo take it back you leave me wondering if it was the truth, did you mean any of it? and he said "no"<BR>Another thing that makes me doubt is that i will ask him a question and he will tell me "i refuse to answer" and I say "why" and he will say "i told you I don't want to talk about it" well that makes me feel like he isn't answering because he is hiding something but he says it just means he doesn't want to talk about it because it upsets him and he gets a headache. He says he is unwell these days because of me. (thats rich since he refuses to believe that my sudden weight loss and panic attacks and diarrhea after finding out have anything do with finding out - he has forbidden me to go to the gym until i gain weight because he thinks that is why i've become so thin. its funny because I was going everyday before i found out and i couldn't lose one pound and then after I found out i didn't go for a week and when i weighed myslef I'd lost 7 pounds)<BR>So anyway, sorry I've been rambling but my worries are about knowing the whole truth about the past and figuring out where to go from there once I know. If only I could believe him then I could move on so easily. A one night stand is bad and it makes me furious to think about it and makes me wish I could go back in time so I could make myself get my butt over to his country faster than i did but I can deal with it. I don't really doubt him too much about what he is up to now although just in case I occasionally check his wallet, briefcase, pockets and missed, received, and dialled calls on his cell phone. also I know his e-mail password. But if he really wanted to do something he could still hide evidence from me easily. I guess I worry about the future. If he cares enough about me to tell me the truth about thepast then I am hopeful things will be okay in the future unless he becomes a pilot for an airline and then the same circumstances could arise and I know I will worry every day he is away. <BR>Anyway, after reading my examples of our conversations does anyone have any advice on how I should behave or opinion on if he sounds like he is being honest or anything at all to tell me? I am very confused.<BR>also how long do antidepressants take to work? <BR>thanks and sorry for my defensiveness cleopatra It wasn't really directed at you since your messages were written in what I can see was a tone of trying to be helpful <p>[This message has been edited by dying inside (edited December 10, 2000).]

dying inside,<P>I just read your post but I have to run out right now. I have several things to share so when I get back this afternoon I will share. <BR>cleo

OK, when someone goes without having their needs met for a period of time and someone comes along and starts meeting them, they make deposits in their love bank(this concept is explained here on this site). Most often is is not noticed at first. This was the case with my H. He wasn't looking for it. This OP knew what was going on in his life and she was making deposits in his love bank over time. He says that he was never aware of this until, "It just happened". Now that its over, he realizes what happened that lead to them being together. Nonetheless painful, but that's what happened. I think that is what you are trying to say. She made enough deposits without him really being aware until one day she topped out her account and the whole disgusting thing is history now. <P>You are rught also, that it doesn't matter what the OW looks like. A lot of people here have said that the OW was much less attractive than they were. It all depends on who is making the deposits in the love bank.<P>Regarding your doubts about what happened, too many details may create images in your mind that are hard to overcome and will actually hinder your recovery. I have many questions regarding the particulars of my H's relationship. I know that if I ask and he tell that I will forever have those images burned into my mind. I know the important things. I don't *need* to know anything else. It's morbid curiosity, i think, wanting the other details. I think that you should go with what you know. Your H sounds regretful and sorry about what has happened. Leave it at that. A lot of people don't have a spouse like that. Many just walk out. I am sure that he is humiliated by this A. Try not to overanalyze his thoughts. He did what he did. It can not be changed. He chose to be with you. Try for one month not to bring up the A. Don't ask questions about how he felt, what they did, etc... Let it go. You know he is in love with you. See how you feel and how he reactes to you at the end of the month. I bet you won't feel as frazzled. I sure did start to feel a lot better. I think you should read Dr. Harley's books, His Needs/Her Needs and Lovebusters.<P>I really think that you need to get beyond this OW for your own piece of mind. It has to be made clear to her that inquiries about your H and anyother attempt to maintain some sort of connection with him are unwanted. I am pretty sure that she got the message from you. If she doesn't stay away then your H and his family need to address this issue. For her to keep popping into your life is no good for your marriage. Has your H ever written a no contact letter? Would he do it if things were to continue?<P>A few thoughts on dealing with someone for whom english is a second language. I grew up around people who spoke english as a second language. It is hard sometims for them to find the right word or things get lost in the translation. "Turn of the light" can be said as "close the light" by someone whose native tongue is not english. He means the same but in translating the thought he choses a different word. You still know what he meant. I know you take that into consideration. Try not to get so caught up in the words. Remember that old saying, actions speak louder than words.<P>take care<BR>cleo

Hi cleopatra,<BR>thanks again for your advice. <BR>as far as asking him for the gory details - i did try to do that when i first found out but I gave up because he says he can't remember much and also I think since the two of them weren't sexually experienced it wasn't some earth shttering event it was probably fast and gross and ugly and that makes me happy to think of it that way. He says he does remember getting up right away and taking a shower and leaving so I know he didn't lie in her arms all night and enjoy what they did (at least at the times I believe him that makes me feel better)<BR>This thing about love bank or whatever -- that is what I am trying to figure out. He insists he never loved her not for one minute so from that it seems like she didn't deposit anything in his love bank. He has even said that out of their group (she used to meet up with his group with her group which was her sister, sometimes her brother and her cousins) he thought that one of the cousins had the best personality and was the nicest. And from what i've been told this cousin is very pretty too. Last night we were talking about his friends and he said he has never had a female friend that he considered one of his best freinds> he says he only was alone with her once a month (over a period of 4-5 months) when they would go for lunch - usually to some fast food place so that hardly seems romantic and it also seems a normal get togeher with someone who is just a friend. He also said I am the only person he has ever discussed feelings and emotions with he doesn't discuss those things with his family or best male friends or female friends so I don't think they could have bonded on some deep emotional level. That is why I am so confused about what happened. He had lots of friends and I think those other friends filled his need for friendship more than she did and we were comunicating regularly by phone and discussing things like emotions and our future and lovey dovey stuff so I think his needs that way were still being met by me to a certain extent - at least more than they were by her since he says he never discussed things like that with her. aside from this love bank thing is there something like a sex bank - I mean basically the only thing he was lacking was having a female companion to touch and hold and kiss and to adore and to adore him in return. he mentioned a thing or two about how she would embarrass him by sitting too close to him when they were all out in a group - I wonder if she somehow was slowly giving him Physical signals that culminated in sex when she finally got him alone in a setting where it could occur. because i feel like if she had deposited units in his love bank he wouldn't have been able to dump her so easily and since they were away for several days it would have been more than a one night thing too. He insists it was only about sex for him. i wish I could believe that. when I said she used friendship to get close enough to pounce i mean that he certainly never would have ended up in this situation with a stranger. But she wasn't his greatest friend either. She was someone he didn't know and then because she wanted him she made sure she was around enough until they became friendly and then with her offer to help him out with his career he considered her enough of a friend to trust her and to be alone with her and to trust her intentions. I don't know, does that sound possible. Could that happen with a young man (24/25 years old) who has only had sex once in his whole life and who hasn't seen his love interst in a year. Could he just be tempted enough sexually to do something like that and not have any emotional attachment - except a certain degree of guilt afterwards? i mean I read a news report recently about a guy who was arrested in a pumpkin patch because he was screwing a pumpkin. His reason was there weren't any willing girls around and he felt the urge too greatly and he saw the pumkins and ... I mean if a horny guy could get the idea to have a go at a pumpkin wouldn't it be more understandable for a guy to go for a girl who is obviously willing and available even if she isn't great looking?<BR>Maybe I'm just fooling myself. I don't know.<BR>How do I keep myself from bugging him about this for one month? I always tell myslef I am not going to and I have been successful for up to 10 days I think but then I get some fear or doubt - something triggers it and I feel obsessed and I can't help myself. I especially hate movies. it seems like these days just by terrible coincidence i've seen a lot of movies that seem to be protraying cheating as if it so romantic and it makes me angry and upset. <BR>Thanks again for responding to me I am very alone here - my parents live on a different continent and so do his and I have only one friend here who i feel like God sent to me right before I found out. If it hadn't been for her I think i might have killed myslef sometime. But she hasn't gone through this and she doesn't completely understand my feelings.<BR>Well i've got to go. my h is fasting and I have to make his food before the sun sets.<BR>

today is a real busy day for me so I have to be super brief but I will be back later tonight.<P>Good for you onthe ten days! If one motnh seems to long go for 15 days and see what happens. Read that book lovebusters by Dr. Harley. It might help you overcome this urge.<P>About the one night thing, I can honestly answer that question. It does happen, this one night thing. It's possible that he has a need for sex even if you guys had only been together once. She ingratiated herself into his life. He may have liked her cousins personality better but this girl made herself more available. Maybe the only need she filled was the sex need, as you said. Your H does sound very remorseful though and I would hold on to that. He has never done it since and how long has it been? These are things you should tell yourself when you start to feel panic setting in. <BR>Let your H know what triggers these feelings. Mine were fairly predictable ones. Let him know that even if it does sound strange that it still makes you feel uncomfortable. There are things that he can do to make you feel a little more at ease.<P>One last thing, stay away from any movie or tv show that you think has that infedelity thing. I had to do that for a long time. You will feel better when you remove that from your life.<P>gotta go,<BR>cleo

Cleopatra,<BR>thank you so much for all of your help and advice. you probably don't even know how much it means to me since most people aren't as isolated as i am here. <BR>It has been over four years since he slept with her and there is no evidence that he has kept in contact with her or bothered with her in the least bit since then except after she wrote him a love card and then he says he called her to tell her to move on. <BR>I don't know exactly what all of you mean by a no contact letter - if there is some special format but he did do something like that. When she sent her love letter it was enclosed in a love card and he ripped up the letter but the card he sent back to her and he wrote across it.<BR>"Do not contact me, there is nothing between us I have a wife I love very much"<P>also he tried to call her right after I found out but she hung up on him when she heard his voice - she refuses to listen to him tell her the truth. Later (last month) after I found out she has been telling lies about me he called her again to tell her to stop lying about me and he also had written out a list of things to tell her like that what happened between them was just a disgusting mistake and that she is and was not ever his girlfriend and he never loved her but she didn't let him get past the stop lying about my wife part.<BR>I know he doesn't love her. I just want to make sure he is aware of what happened so that he can avoid similar circumstances in the future.<BR>I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who is bothered by movies like that. My husband gets irritated at me and doesn't understand why I can't remove myself from reality and enjoy the movie. He doesn't at all connect himself to the story lines.<BR>Thanks again <BR>

I know what you mean about your H and the movies. I think that is a man thing. You'll just have to excuse yourself and tell him until you feel better that's the way it is. <P>An example of the no contact letter is in the book Survivng An Affair (SAA) by Dr. Harley. It basically says that there will be no more contact of any kind. That he is sorry he hurt his wife and wants to make things work, etc... I highly recommend this book. It sounds like he has done something along these lines, but, he shouldn't continue to have any contact with her at all! You see, even negative contact is viewed as contact(does that make sense?). She still has a little of his attention which is what she wants. It also bothers you. She knows that. We can't control what she is doing. Anybody can say whatever they want. You and your H should ignore her at this point. She should get no reinforcement, negative or positive. Let her talk all she wants. You know the truth and so does your H. If she and your H are from an arab culture, she will eventually get a very bad rep. Ask him. Let his family deal with her. Try not to respond even if it burns you up. They are just words. If she gets violent or threatens your family, then get the police involved. <BR>Did I confuse things or did you get what I was saying?<P>I also recommend reading SAA and HN/HN. They will give you great insight into making things work for yourself and H. Go to the main page of the webiste and find out how to order them. If you are in the states, a lot of christian bookstores sell them. No, he doesn't preach in his books.