Hi all,<P>Well, I'm in one of my weird questioning moods today, so allow me to pose this question: <P>What if my W (WS) is not in a fog, but is simply the way she is?<P>In other words, what if she simply changed (permanently) for whatever reason, and any efforts to get her "back" are futile because there is no "fog" to lift?<P>I see a lot of comments here about our WS's being in the fog, and it sure seems to fit my W, and all her actions and all her statements. But what if we are just fooling ourselves, hoping that surely this must be fog that will eventually lift, if we just outwait it and Plan A away? <P>What if there is no "fog"??<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited December 06, 2000).]

AGoodGuy,<BR>This is the same question that I have in my mind too. What if that is what the WS wants and means it? I think we might fool ourselves and make believe that the WS would come back. A lot of time, I think we are in denial. We don't want to accept that the relationship is really dead. Please check out a book title "Rebuilding: after the end of the realtionship". I learned something from it even though I have not finished it yet.<P>I'm waiting for other to jump in to see what they think about your question.<P>OOOO

From what I've seen, for most it is a fog that eventually lifts; but not for all. For those who ascribe to the MLC theory, part of the fog is the general questioning of life's direction, meaning etc., and that can lead to some permanent changes, but not usually long-lasting major shifts...I've seen it written tht the drastic shifts in priorities, etc. generally revert back to a value system close--but not identical to the original. <P>My H seems to have gotten rid of the fog surrounding OP, but has made some permanent changes ... since they relate largely to finding himself, that's OK. <P>Anyway, I hope your W's fog lifts soon...<P>Kathi

Goodguy,<BR>I have had doubts my self about this one,but fog to me means infatuation vs. reality.<BR>Does it wear off,I hope so.<BR> Beth

AGoodguy,<P> I certainly won't pretend to be an expert since I'm very new to this but this is how I see it after reading a lot of the info at this site. You don't know that she is in a fog. You attempt plan A and let that run as long as you can. If this doesn't work you eventually move on to Plan B. This is the make or break part of it all. At this point you let go and begin to go on with your life. Your spouse will be faced with the inevitability of the finalization and either run back or it will end. Either way at this point you can rest easy and move on knowing that you have done all you could to make it work. I've always said that if my marriage ends it will never be because I didn't try. I know for me if that day comes I will be able to look in the mirror every day and be proud of who I am. So I guess if and when you go to plan B and it fails then you'll know it probably wasn't a cloud. Just my observations. Hope all works out well. Crick

I have the same questions, and sometimes recently SKM finally told WAT and myself to stop asking if our wives are in a fog. How many spouses go into this crazy, illogical state, and don't have another person. That seems to be the common attribute, so it seems that it is definitely caused by an infatuation and fantasy that they perceive as an intense love that they must have. There are enough cases where this has proven true, and the former WS on here testify to that. So, I guess it boils down to what happens when this fog lift. Just because it is a fog, doesn't necessarily mean that when it lifts, they will want to work on the marriage. We all want and hope that they do want the marriage, of course. I suppose the MB principles recognize that all marriages will not recover, and thus the Plan A, then B approach is designed to make the transition and either restore or move on knowing you did all you can.<P>Every day things happen that I want to get on her and ask about, just to see if anyone thinks that it means it is over. But I think about it and know that the behavior I see is just too bizarre to derive any conclusions from it. It is up and down over and over. It is an out of control robotic car and all you can do is hang on and see where it stops.<BR>

I've often thought about that myself. Even more so now because it looks like OM is out of the picture, yet our divorce is still going to happen. <P>I think it is entirely possible. In my case, there may even be "reverse" fog happening. As I look back on some aspects of our marriage, I realize that she's right when she says we never really had a strong emotional bond. We married because she really thought she was in love with me, really thought it was the right thing to do, and really thought it could work out. In a sense, she's come out of the "fog" that she was in with me. <P> Is that possible, all you hard-core MBers? She was extracting herself from a long-term relationship when I met her...was she just in the fog these past few years?<P>Maybe this is a whole different topic! Sorry to take the focus of the thread away from you, AGG, but you've really got me thinking!

Thank you all for the thought-provoking responses. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in my sometimes-bizarre ponderances.<P><B>OOOO</B>Yes, I think you may be right with the denial thing. Perhaps my denial means that I am the one that's in the fog, refusing to accept my "new" W. Who knows?<P><B>Kathi</B> You know my story as well as anyone else here, so I do appreciate your hope that my W's fog lifts one of these days. If there is a fog, that is .<P><B>alone1</B> Well, I agree that the infatuation with the OM is based on fantasy, so if that's what we mean by "fog", then I agree that it'll lift. But I'm not sure that all the other new behaviors will lift along with that.<P><B>crick</B> I've been Plan A'ing for six months. I think the A might actually be over, at least the PA. The EA is harder to gage, since they work together and thus have daily contact. I'm still holding out on Plan B, since I have trouble imagining it with our little kids involved.<P><B>Rick37</B> I love reading your posts, because inevitably everything you say about your W also applies to mine. All the behaviors, the stupid comments, etc, are identical. But I share your concern; what if when the fog (infatuation with OM) lifts, they'll still have no interest in us or in the marriage. I think the memories of the infatuation are so strong, that they will forever miss those feelings, and will decide to divorce us because they don't have the same feelings for us.<P><B>cjack</B> I think you nailed the essence of my concern. I have "two" wives on my hands: the one I married and the one I have now. How do I know that she is in a fog now, as opposed to being "herself" now, having been in the fog for the last few years? If you listen to her, she's been faking it the whole time ("never had chemistry", "never had passion", and all the other nonsense). So why should I think that there is a fog to lift? Maybe it has lifted, and this is the new her???<P>AGG

Now that is just too weird. You hit on something I had forgotten about my W. Before I met her, she went by her nickname: "Shelly." She was a wild, loud party girl. However, she slowly turned into "Michelle," the quieter, more reserved woman I married. Her A started shortly after she re-connected with some old friends, and "Shelly" came back out. Seems she had literally changed her personality to conform to what she thought I wanted in a wife (I'm very quiet and reserved at home), but suppressing that other side of her personality was not healthy, hence our current problems. Maybe your W is missing some aspect of her personality that she had when she was single, yet lost when she married you?<P>Just thinking out loud...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you listen to her, she's been faking it the whole time ("never had chemistry", "never had passion", and all the other nonsense).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>FYI--Heard all that nonsense too (substitute "years and years" for "the whole time". These folks are obviously all handed the same script!!!

AGoodGuy,<P>Well, there is the problem of who you married and who you are married too. However, if this is the worst case scenario, then there is hope. You see your worst case scenario is that people change after they marry. But, that also means they can change again if it is in their best interests. <B>That is the essence of Plan A. </B><P>They can change again, and again, and again, AND so can you. What is hard to accept is that YOU cannot change them, you can just set the stage for them wanting to change.<P>While I don't have the experiences of those posting here, I will say this without fear of being wrong. The A has changed them as well as you. The fog lifting reveals first and foremost that they are not somebody that they admire. That alone will make them reconsider themselves and you in this new light.<P>Yes, some may decide to "hit the silk" and leave, partly out of guilt or new found realizations, but as Harley has found, if you offer an attractive alternative, most often they find they don't want to lose the marriage, the love, and the person they are married to.<P>Does it always happen? No! Do you always want them back? No! Is everyone changed? You bet!<P>So the fear that the person you are now married to is not the same is valid. But with that fear comes the realization that you could build a better marriage if you both change in the right direction.<P>End Of Sermon: I apologize.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I know I'm jumping in late here, but all of you have had good insights. I've thought about this topic frequently - going back to the beginning of my wife's affair when - in my normal way of analylzing things - I considered first that it was me who was going crazy. But my close supporters convinced me it wasn't me. The sudden changes, the obvious lies, the outlandish behavior coming from my wife - all confirm to me that fog or some more psychological term was working on her.<P>At the same time, I've tried to keep an open mind that I may be in the fog as well - not the same kind, but a faiure to see that our marriage was so dysfunctional, that to expect us to salvage it is no less a "Castle in the Sky" than the relationship envisioned by my wife and OM. That's why I've been concerned that her's was an exit affair and she has no interest in saving her marriage. Hopefully, she's remembering the failed marriage that contributed to the affair. My challenge is to convince her that a new and improved marriage is possible if we try. For our family it is worthatry.<P>WAT

As a WS I will try to explain the "fog". At first in the beginning of the affair you feel like you did in any relationship that is new and exciting. Floating on cloud nine. Can't wait to see that person, talk to that person...thinking about that person all of the time. It's the same feeling anybody feels in a new relationship. It is also true that the more I felt I wanted to be with the other man the more difficult I was to live with at home. When your out with the other person and you know it's time to return home you may not want to go there. You don't want to end the good time, the good feelings. Remember when you were young and you had to go home and maybe you didn't want to yet? Well it was like that. I wanted to stay with him, I didn't want to go home and be with my husband. That makes your attitude bad at home. On top of that, your angry at yourself and filled with guilt. In my situation, I wanted out of my marriage but I felt there was no way out. I didn't want my children to have their parents divorce, I was afraid of being able to make it on a single income. I felt trapped and that made me all the more a real creep/nag while at home. It was like I stepped in and out of a fog. While with the om I was in the fog. I would imagine what my life would be like with him, the high "fog" like feeling. When I'd get home the fog would lift and I'd realize exactly what was real life and that is when the ugly side of myself would come out.

BonnieSept,<P>Please share with me how it is/or has turned out for you. I'm going through something so similar, with a small child, just told OM (whom I still love), that I can't see him now...to much pain fromt the past, new pain in the present, guilt too much, though H knows...I was at one point, intending to marry OM when my divorce was final.<BR>Couldn't go through with the divorce. Just don't want it, the pain that I will feel, yet feel in withdrawal at looking at fixing my marriage. I am miserable.<P>Thanks,<BR>RM<P>------------------<BR>

Rockymountains - I ended up getting a divorce and getting married to the OM. I absolutely DO NOT want to encourage you to do the same though. If there is even a small part of you that wants to make it work with your husband then I think you need to do that. Endings like mine are so extremely rare that unless your intensions are to divorce regardless if the om is there or not, I strongly urge you to work on your marriage. I understand and feel your pain of withdrawl from the OM (I went through it for awhile too). I also remember the mood swings all too well during the pain and confusion. But, if your husband knows about it and is willing to back you I suggest you give it your best shot.