Cjack - You're definitely on to something - not the script thing but the fog being attached to the OM. When I was with the OM -or away from my H - I thought our marriage was over, finito. Then I would be around my H - and during the affair and shortly after it ended - I was very irritable. Some days, I would be kind and loving - so I could protect my secrets, but other times, I was just nasty - justifying in my mind that having the affair was okay - because my marriage wasn't working anyway.<P>The thing is, I think you need to break the patterns, too. WAT - What's the deal with the OM, too? I thought he and his wife were "trying to work it out?" Or has he also moved out? Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could actually help the OM fix HIS marriage and then he would be out of the picture? <P>Fog on radar. . .hmmm. . .Wasn't the fog a scary movie years ago? Maybe we should all rent it. . .

SKM - no, I don't know anything about the OM. Haven't spoken to him since he denied anything going on with my wife just before d-day. He moved out just a few weeks before my wife did. They live within walking distance of each other. Interesting thought on getting rid of him by repairing his marriage. Who knows, maybe in an indirect way, I already am.<P>WAT

keeping in line withthis latest thought process; why not drop his wife a copy of SAA and give her a crash course in Plan A. I'm assuming she still wants the marriage.<P>

Regarding the patterns, I've noticed some patterns at times, but couldn't get it down to a science. I sometimes wonder if my wife's really down, nasty moods coincide with talks with OM about no future. Or perhaps he is away visiting the parents for the weekend. I usually think if she is all happy, they were together the previous night. Who knows.<P>And WAT, I meant to get this off my chest long ago....but the OM in your case really makes me mad and sick. Being a pallbearer and a close friend, shame on him for doing this. That is quite unbelievable, and must be a hard aspect for you to handle. The last thing you needed was any of this.<P>I like the idea of dropping off an SAA and writeup on Plan A to the OMs wife.

Cleo and Rick - I seriously thought of doing just that - introducing the OMs wife to MB, SAA and all - but I didn't for several reasons, but reasons that you may find easy to second guess. <P>First, the OM's wife became hysterical and out of control from the beginning. At first, we cooperated and shared the results of our snooping. But as soon as the A was revealed, she went on the attack against both her husband and my wife. Frankly, she's not the sharpest quill on the porcupine and I couldn't get her to understand that she was making it worse. You might argue all the more reason for MB principles. Well, I didn't know about MB principles for almost three months into the affair, but I was basically Plan A'ing, I just didn't know it had a name. So I had nothing other than my own arguments to explain to her and she would have no part of being compassionate. It's sorta like what Rick desrcibed about doing all of this 30 years ago.<P>Secondly, she couldn't keep her mouth shut and any conversation I had with her found it's way back to my wife via the OM and became an LB. She continued to harass my wife, threatening some sort of legal action, and wouldn't leave me alone seeking information from my vantage point. She was out to prove adultery in order to get sole custody of her one minor child and to bleed OM dry. She was calling me at work, calling all hours of the night at my house, and generally being totally counterproductive. She was part of the reason my wife moved out. Finally, I had no choice but to cut off all communication with her.<P>If I thought she could do it intelligently, I might offer to her knowledge about the MB principles, but I just don't think she'd get it, plus she'd rely on me as an ally while I've got enough on my plate as it is.<P>If you have some alternative suggestions, I'd love to hear them.<P>WAT

I'll second WAT with contacting the other parties with the MB principles. Been there done that! Didn't work for me. I think most of the men and a large portion of the women who follow the MB principles have to be somewhat masochistic in varying degrees. It's far, far from easy, in fact just being extremely difficult would make it quite a bit better. So, when other folks read "become a doormat" & "remain calm and composed in the light of blatant bold face lies" or "It's best to let the WS stay in the home until you can no longer tolerate it" I understand why they would turn their nose up and look for another solution. Most of my peer group still thinks I'm totally stupid, a few have learned the clinical term for the stupidity is called love. <P>Just because they choose a different avenue than MB, it might be the right one for them. I stuck with the MB thing just so I knew if it was over, it was really over. <P>BTW - From my experience and several others on these boards (including WAT above), most information or conversations you have with the Ops spouse will make it back to your spouse in the most negative light possible.<P>

I was just reading all the posts on this topic, and I'd just like to say it did me a lot of good to read what you guys are feeling and thinking. I think both sexes make the mistake, when a member of one of them has been hurt, of labeling each other ("she's a woman, after all," or "he's a man, after all") as if there is something inherently deceitful and bad on the X or Y chromosome!! We both bleed, physically and emotionally, and we are both capable of great deceit. I guess the bottom line is, We're both human! I have an idea, let's stop making mean innuendoes against our respective sexes!! I as a woman understand the male pain resulting from infidelity and duality. Because it's the same pain. My husband cheated on me. Would make love to me, tell me he loved me, and then go off and chase a 24-year-old Oriental girl in the evening when he was supposed to be remodeling his parents' kitchen (he's 50). I also recognize there were things I didn't do and could have done that would have made it less of an option for him. I'm accepting my responsibility. How about you guys?

badsecret, <P><BR>I think the "she's a woman, He's a man" comments were made in jest. Remember, if its the one I am thinking of, it was prefaced by an alien abduction comment. This seems, to me, to be a very obvious attempt at humor.<P>Most of the posters on this thread are suffering through some very adverse situations and need a little humor every now and then.

angry response to men, women issue deleted. It was a good one, but this is not the place.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 13, 2000).]