OK, most of you know my story, but for those who don't, my wife's EA (maybe never went PA) started in June and was so poorly hid that it was discovered almost immediately. OM is her best friend's husband. Our marriage had been dysfunctional for many years and we were distracted by the long term illness of our second son, who died in 8/99. She never has admitted EA, although she admitted at one time to be "in love" with OM. I heard all the usual denials, etc. She moved out in August because of "our marriage problems", claiming nothing to do with OM. Of course OM moved out at about the same time.<P>Now, I really think it's fizzled. She seems sad and down and maybe is going through some withdrawal. She refuses to go to counseling and gets combative if the conversation ever turns to "us." She seems to have no interest whatsoever in reconciling. She has agreed to talk to Steve Harley about me, not about her or the relationship - appointment is set tomorrow, but this morning she announced that she got supoenaed to court, also tomorrow because she witnessed a car accident. So it's likely her appt. with Steve won't happen.<P>My question: Is she exiting? She says she just wants to be friends and all long range future planning (work schedules, son's activities, etc.) assume we're still separated. She hasn't signed the separation papers, but I think this is because she bit off more than she can chew in the financial arrangements and can't afford to carry out the split.<P>Or, is this attitude typical of withdrawal and she's still confused about what she wants? <P>My fear is that she considers that our marriage was so hollow for so long that she can't see it being recovered. I know WSs have to maximize the faults of the marriage to justify the affair, but she was pretty unhappy with our marriage, as I was, long before the affair. I think once we get on with the unresolved grief of losing our son, that our problems are very solvable.<P>Am I in the fog, or is she?<P>WAT

I didn't want to be the first to respond to this, because you'll have that anticipation that you are getting a female WS perspective, and of course I don't have that. But I must respond anyway, for whatever it is worth. I hope you enjoyed your evening last night a little.<P>The way I see it is that you (and I) definitely are not in the fog. We recognize the possible outcomes of this mess, and are simply following a plan that has the best chance of saving our marriages. We know there isn't a guarantee. I don't think anyone can look at the situation and know which way it will go. Regardless of the condition before the marriage. When I look back, mine was not good for the past few years. On the surface it seemed OK at times, but really, we let it slide around the time of our 1st child being born. We just lost that closeness, the ability to communicate clearly, expression of feelings, etc. I worry too that she can't remember enough good stuff to warrant coming back. But, that is what our Plan A's were partly about. You have alot of history together. Put is this way. Regardless of the outcome, a WS in your wife's current phase always says the same things. Want to be friends, won't talk about US, there is no chance, etc. But some of those come back.<P>You've seen your wife go through stages, from being happy to being down and sad. Something is going on there. My wife is miserable the past few days as well. I've never seen anything like it. Her mom notices she looks awful, and stares into space all the time. I think they are just seeing that life isn't so wonderful out there. Like you, I hope that they notice that is isn't so bad in here. The biggest problem seems to be - how do we get them to buy into the MB type of concepts, or in general, buy into the fact that even though it was bad before the A and separation, it can be good again if you work on it.<P>Anyway, I don't have the perspective you are looking for, but I have asked this kind of stuff before, and I think you have probably read the answers. They can be in a worse fog after OM has become less of a factor. It is hard to make sense of, but I have heard it from more than one on here, so I figure I just have to trust that.<P>I'm sorry to hear that the call might not happen. I hope it can be rescheduled.<P>My wife first claimed in June that she was never happy, we should never have got married, that she had doubts on our wedding day, that it was too late, we are too different and people don't change, and that she has been faking her entire life, and now was the real her. I took this to heart until I found MB, and realized that these lines are from the WS grab bag, like bingo numbers popping up over and over. So I think these things are what they have to say for justifying the A. And they all say this and claim there is no one else, then you find out they are "in love". What a crock.<P>I'm rambling now, but rest assured you are not alone in having your wife claim you are friends, and ditto on the long range plans thing. My wife talks about me going on vacation alone with the kids next year, mutters her thoughts about the kids switching schools (NOT) to be near her new place, wants everything that she will have to be in her name, wanted her maiden name at work, and has spent a crapload of money setting up her new place. However, I try to not let this affect my thinking. I know it isn't so rosy over there now, and it is like we have the script and they only know the present. Their thinking is blurred big time, and we see that in some of the illogical decisions that they make. Look at how you and your wife used to make fun of the OM, and suddenly she is "in love". It is fog. I guess the important thing is that no one knows if an A is exit style, all we can do is our best. At least we are armed with knowledge and our own personal team of experts available to help us. Some go through this completely alone. I was thinking the other night...imagine if this happened 30 years ago....we'd think we were alone going through it.<P>Hang in there and be ready to set me straight when I take a tumble, which can happen at any time. All it takes is one phone call from my WS, with some weird request, and it is time to hang on tight.<P>PS: We've both got posts up wondering about our WS behavior and the fog....we better be careful or SKM will scold us again for asking "is it fog" (SKM I mean that nicely)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited December 10, 2000).]

Hey guys,<P>Sorry, no female WS here, but I want to comment nonetheless.<P>I think you guys need to remember that there are two things at works here. One is the dreaded "fog", which is the fantasy life that the WS's create in their affairs. They are so "in-love" that they can't see straight, and hence come up with all the nonsense we hear as they read the script (I think amazon.com sells WS scripts, given how popular a reading material it seems to be... ).<P><B>However</B>, and this is important, you guys need to keep in mind that our WS's are withdrawn (per Harley definiton). Now this is no laughing matter. Usually, they have ample reasons to be withdrawn: years of unhappiness, hopelessness, etc about the marriage. Years of feeling unloved, unwanted, abandoned, etc. Feelings of being cheated of the life that they envisioned. And let's face it, we have contributed to those feelings.<P>Sure, we can say that we never had a clue that our spouses were so depressed, and never knew that things were <B>really</B> bad. But in reality, you both admit that you weren't happy in the marriage either, which means you knew something was wrong. Unfortunately, we just didn't know how to fix it, and neither did our spouses. Instead of going to MB, they went to an OM...<P>All I'm saying is that after all the years of disappointment, it is quite natural for our spouses to be very leary of the new "us", and so they feel neither here nor there. They see the changes we made as part of Plan A, but they so vividly remember the bad times that they can't simply forget that. Hence they are depressed, because they don't know what to do. They started heading down the path of divorce, being sure that the marriage was doomed. Then, when we made the changes and started fighting for our marriages, they kind of stopped in their tracks and are now having second thoughts about their original plan. At least this is what I'm learning from my W.<P>So keep in mind that the withdrawal and the affair are two separate things, and both need to be dealt with.<P>I hope SKM will add some of her thoughts to this.<P>AGG

Thanks, Guys, I needed that. Please kick me in the butt once a week whether I need it or not. Still would like the female WS perspective, because I can't give you guys a cyber hug - not cool.<P>I think I'll have a beer. Here's to ya!<P>WAT

WAT<P>Hey thought I would get in on the act as well with the lack of female WS perhaps I can shed some light.<P>The script your W is using is so typical of what my W is using with regards to her feelings for me. The only difference is that my W is still full on with the OM at this stage.<P>Last night I had a big talk with her about how she felt about us as things seemed to be improving ever so slightly. The answers however were much the same, "I don't have feelings for you and I believe that once these feelings of love are gone you can never regain them". Yet we do so many things together as companions. Even talking to her was like driving in a fog. She stared off in to space as we talked and at times I had to check to see if she had been listening. The fog really is so thick!!!<P>WAT, I believe your W is in two states of mind at present. One is severe withdrawal symptoms if the OM is definately out of the picture. The trouble is she is comparing your long term relationship with what she maybe had with him "the high of a love affair".<P>Now blind Freddie will tell you that there is no comparison with that to a long term relationship. Unfortunately however the comparison is made and most marriages (over 2 yrs old) would fail on such a comparison.<P>It is so hard as I can attest but Plan A is the only tool you have at present and perhaps over time when she sees consistent changes and care for her the depression will lift and she may open her heart to you again. <P>Hang in there with the rest of us.

worthatry<BR> Well, here goes, I would now consider myself a WS, I was married for over twenty years to an alcoholic. No intimacy unless I begged, no conversation, I had met a man, got involved in a EA, he listened and talked for hours with me, my H at the time did not even notice my late hours, change in my persona, nothing, I moved out of the house, got closer to OM. Went thru all of the fog that I keep hearing about. My H lovedbashed big time, (due to his pain that I now understand). He filed for D three months after I left. My EA turned into a PA. We got divorced, I am now married to my OM. I now understand my ex. If he would have planned A at all I would not have ever had the PA. He could have had me back so much, just because I told him that we were thru, no love left, etc. etc. it just was not true, I remember thinking how easy it would be for him to win me back, he just did not know how. Good luck hopes this helps. Jenni

WAT,<P>Earlier today I had this great big post ready to go to you - I hit post reply and my computer crashed. Now I have to try and remember my flash of brilliance (haha)<P>Basically, what I wanted to convey is that I do believe that your W is in the FOG. In her case, her combativeness when it comes to discussing the "us" of your relationship stems from some deep anger. Anger, in turn springs from hurt. <P>Think about it - try to recall a few times when you were angry about something that happened to you. So often our first response to an injustice is hurt, then the anger kicks in as a defense mechanism, and a natural response.<P>The good news is - usually, if you don't give a sh*t about someone, you aren't going to become particularly hurt and then angry to the point of combativeness. If your W's responses all seemed cool, calculated and as emotionless as a routine bank transaction, then I'd worry. But she doesn't sound that way to me.<P>I believe that you did indeed touch on one of the very roots of your troubles - the unresolved grief / grieving process over the loss of your son. Grief can serve as a meduim to breed all sorts of contempt, pain, and denial. I don't know what you can say to your wife to persuade her to seek some help with you in this journey, but I hope you do think of something.<P>The saddest part of everything is that the recovery road is arduous enough without carrying the extra weight of denial and old built up resentment. Your W sounds like someone who is apt to stuff her strong unpleasant feelings, rather than dust them off to deal with them. I'll bet that is part of the purpose of her A.<P>Keep vying for that call to Steve. I have a feeling he can talk some sense into her. Also, ask yourself how much space and time you are willing to give her to get her life straight, and begin setting these limits first with yourself, then with her. <P>I hope this helps you gain some insight, whether I am right or wrong about your W's personality. Sometimes hearing an inaccurate description can help you better identify what it is you are looking for, ironically enough. And I do hope she begins to come around to herself again.<P>In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt for YOU to begin dealing with the loss of your son. Perhaps what you learn you can begin to impart to her, if she'll listen. You gotta sneak it in - like heartworm pills for the dog. <P>Khyra

My x went through the same thing too after om dumped her. However she didn't return home at that time, because I wasn't ready for that. We had a bunch of mini-reconciliations at that time that I was afraid she would come back and then leave again affecting both me and the kids.<P>My x said the same thing Rick's wife did. She had been unhappy for 10 yrs, we were married for 16 yrs, and she said she was going to leave anyways and that it would have been easier to understand if om hadn't come around.<P>She too felt that she was hiding her true self while married to me and that this was now her real self and that I was who I was and that I couldn't change. <P>I think she liked having no responsibilty when she was living alone and just working. But probably got lonely and om ended up back in the picture. Thats when I threw in the towel.<P>The best I can offer is keep on plan Aing and to hang in. This is where I second guess myself. Should I have hung on for another ride on the emotional roller coaster?<P>Hang in,<P>Bob

WAT -<P>You know, I keep thinking in the back of my mind about your son's death. Now, things could have been pretty bad before that time, but, I don't know, I think that would have been catastrophic for me, as a woman. I hesitate to even think that your wife has even begun to heal from that tragedy. Then the affair. . .<P>I had a friend who was going through a divorce. For whatever reason, she felt as if she was "never in love" with her H. Okay, she has a right to say that. BUt, this is a girl who dated quite a few - not a lot - but quite a few guys in her time. She dated her future H for almost three years, were engaged for 1 year, married for four, and then all of a sudden - she's not in love with him? I find that difficult to swallow. <P>I think what happened, and what happens to all of us, when things aren't going particularly well, we thinks things were bad. To justify the way we're feeling today, we look back on the past, and tend to only focus on the negfative "well, gee, things were never really that good. I never really loved him." But at one point she did, she loved him enough to marry him, and she's not the type of person to rush into that kind of thing.<P>I think, right now, things have just been so overwhelming for your wife, that she cannot focus on the today and make sense - much less focus on those things that were good in your relationship. In her mind - it's already over, and how do you get someone to think otherwis?<P>If nothing else, I think your wife should try and talk to a counselor or Harley - about her, about herself, about how she thinks things have gone. No offense to you at all, I know you have gone through the tragedy of your son's death too, but I don't really think she's dealt with that - she's escaping from life.<P>Maybe I'm transposing myself into your situation, but my affair - while I think my low self-esteem had a lot to do with making me vulnerable to an affair - I think was an "escape" for me. Many, many times, it felt like it would be easier to just forget who I was and just become a new me. Forget my past and start anew. But, you can't forget your past, you can't turn into a new person. . .You have to learn to face your problems, ask for help when you need it, grieve when you need to. . .I think she's not trying to exit - just trying to escape.<P>Again, maybe I'm too sensitive and that's not the case at all, but I keep coming back to that - all of the stress she has been under. In a book I was reading, when faced with a situation where you feel "stuck" you can either flee (which is what is appears as though she is doing); fight or forgive. I think it's much harder to forgive and move forward than to either fight or flee.<P>I don't think she's confused. . .In a way, I think she knows what she wants right now. BUt I think what she wants right now may not be the best thing for her - but she doesn't see that right now. I don't think that hers is really a "classic" case of the fog but more of a variation.

WAT -<P>You know, I keep thinking in the back of my mind about your son's death. Now, things could have been pretty bad before that time, but, I don't know, I think that would have been catastrophic for me, as a woman. I hesitate to even think that your wife has even begun to heal from that tragedy. Then the affair. . .<P>I had a friend who was going through a divorce. For whatever reason, she felt as if she was "never in love" with her H. Okay, she has a right to say that. BUt, this is a girl who dated quite a few - not a lot - but quite a few guys in her time. She dated her future H for almost three years, were engaged for 1 year, married for four, and then all of a sudden - she's not in love with him? I find that difficult to swallow. <P>I think what happened, and what happens to all of us, when things aren't going particularly well, we thinks things were bad. To justify the way we're feeling today, we look back on the past, and tend to only focus on the negfative "well, gee, things were never really that good. I never really loved him." But at one point she did, she loved him enough to marry him, and she's not the type of person to rush into that kind of thing.<P>I think, right now, things have just been so overwhelming for your wife, that she cannot focus on the today and make sense - much less focus on those things that were good in your relationship. In her mind - it's already over, and how do you get someone to think otherwis?<P>If nothing else, I think your wife should try and talk to a counselor or Harley - about her, about herself, about how she thinks things have gone. No offense to you at all, I know you have gone through the tragedy of your son's death too, but I don't really think she's dealt with that - she's escaping from life.<P>Maybe I'm transposing myself into your situation, but my affair - while I think my low self-esteem had a lot to do with making me vulnerable to an affair - I think was an "escape" for me. Many, many times, it felt like it would be easier to just forget who I was and just become a new me. Forget my past and start anew. But, you can't forget your past, you can't turn into a new person. . .You have to learn to face your problems, ask for help when you need it, grieve when you need to. . .I think she's not trying to exit - just trying to escape.<P>Again, maybe I'm too sensitive and that's not the case at all, but I keep coming back to that - all of the stress she has been under. In a book I was reading, when faced with a situation where you feel "stuck" you can either flee (which is what is appears as though she is doing); fight or forgive. I think it's much harder to forgive and move forward than to either fight or flee.<P>I don't think she's confused. . .In a way, I think she knows what she wants right now. BUt I think what she wants right now may not be the best thing for her - but she doesn't see that right now. I don't think that hers is really a "classic" case of the fog but more of a variation.

Thanks all - from the beginning I linked my wife's behavior to the loss of our son. She keeps things inside and she never really relieved any emotions. The only time I ever saw her cry about my son was one night when he was in intensive care for sepsis - temp. 104 and heart rate 230, third spacing his fluids and no white cell count. We didn't know if he would make it through that night, but he did and survived another 5 years. <P>She wouldn't let herself be emotional because she's a pediatric nurse practitioner and she took over as his primary caregiver - the docs all came to respect her and consult with her. She was in full battle mode for our son. I was her number 1 assistant and we were good, very good at managing his care and treatment through chemo, surgeries, and two bone marrow transplants.<P>She's been on anti-deps since shortly after he died. I did all my grieving before he died and I was never on anti-deps. I am certain she has lots of unresolved grief, but has refused to get therapy. However, she was quick to make sure I got therapy from the depression caused by her affair, although she rationalized it as delayed depression from the death of our son.<P>To complete the circle, her OM is her best friend's husband - a very close family to us who were very instrumental in helping us care for our son. OM and his teenage son were pallbearers. Nine months later the affair starts. Possibly contributing to her actions was a desire to get closer to OM's children as surrogates for our lost son.<P>So, our marriage suffered from the burden of concentrating on our sick son and trying to keep life going normally for our healthy son. Intimacy vanished and her reluctance to express her feelings kept me at arms length. Everything else was great. But, in hindsight, an escape for her was necessary and the OM took advantage of her vulnerability as an excuse to deal with problems in his marriage. This tiny man - fully aware of my wife's loss - was arrogant enough to think he could "help" her better than her family could.<P>The point of all this is to postulate that her affair and aftermath may not follow the text. It may be very much worse than the garden variety affair, which is why I struggle to use only the MB principles. I've got two problems I'm trying to solve at once.<P>Thanks for listening,<BR>WAT

WAT<BR>My heart goes out to you. As a mom, I don't think she has grieved, she is hiding and denying it. Being his primary care giver, she felt that maybe she would have some control over the illness. Somethings we just can't control. I am so sorry to hear of all of your grief, in losing your son, and in the troubled marriage. I wish you well. I have a feeling that when she can't bury it anymore she is going to be plunged into a reality that is going to devestate her. I hope she will turn to you and that you will still be able to be there for her. Even if you choose not to wait for her in marriage. Jenni

WAT,<P>I saw your description of the OMs wife in my post, so it all makes sense why you wouldn't involve her. Just wondering if the call took place at 11.

Dear WAT,<P>You've lived through an experience as a parent that no one should have to live through and now you are having to live through an experience as a spouse that no one should have to live through. Yet you continue to be a great parent to your other son and you continue to love your wife, even from a distance. You are a strong, giving and loving person and definitely a survivor. <P>I agree that your situation is probably not classic MB stuff, but the principles are still probably sound. Does your W have anyone she confides her feelings in? It seems she needs to come to a crisis of some sort to let all these emotions out that she has kept inside for so long. Is she being treated for depression? It sounds like she is in such a deep funk and in such deep denial about her feelings that she needs something to rock her out of it. I know this is dangerous, but is there any chance that OM could get her to see a counselor? Just a thought. It seems like she needs more than your love -- she needs some professional for the grief before she would be ready for any relationship again.

Thanks all for your kind words and support.<P>I'm OK with my son's loss. This doesn't mean I don't miss him, I always will. But I understand why he died, and I have no guilt that my wife and I didn't do everything possible to cure him.<P>As for my wife, I am, in fact, waiting for the crash. She has been on anti-deps for over a year now, but probably needs some reassessment. She is very stubborn and very much a control freak. I think deep down inside, she knows she needs big help, but for some unknown reason, hasn't sought it. You can lead a horse to water..... <P>I imagine she has confided some feelings with OM, which is probably the EN he provides, but she has always been a very closed person, even to her immediate family. She is essentially a good and moral person, gone astray. I've told her many times through the conduct of Plan A that I am here for her and I will not abandon her. I guess it's a big pill to swallow to come to the one you betrayed for help.<P>I have not heard about her conversation with Harley. I have purposely not contacted her about it. I'll speak to him later today to hear what happened.<P>Thanks again for the support. I will survive.<P>WAT