My wife (separated WS), son, au pair, and I went out with my son's 7th grade class last night to dinner and then to Ford's theatre to see "A Christmas Carol."<P>You all know the story. Mean old Ebeneezer Scrooge does a 180 when confronted about his past, what he's doing in the present, and the future effects on his life because of his unwillingness to see past his own selfishness. The message was loud and clear that people can change for the better and these changes can be accepted and embraced by others - even those adversely affected in the past.<P>As the play ended with Tiny Tim saying, "God bless us, every one!" I thought I caught a glimpse of a tear on my wife. Hopefully she got the message. Things that looked hopeless can change drastically for the better once you critically examine yourself. Equally applicable to BSs and WSs.<P>As we were leaving I asked my son what he thought of the play. He said, "Boy, old Scrooge really changed before it was too late!" Don't know if my wife heard him.<P>Just trying to help,<BR>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 15, 2000).]

Interesting post, that really isn't off topic when you think about it. Hopefully that was a tear in your wife's eyes. How is your wife's behavior these days. Still needing a cheer up and sounding down? Does she sound "mad" like mine seems to?

Dear WAT,<P>I don't know if you have mentioned this in previous posts, but is there someone that your W trusts that could steer her into grief counseling. As you've mentioned, your situation is a little more complex than some because of her unresolved grief issues. Even if she wanted to, she may not have the capacity to come back and work on your marriage without some help first. I know that you can't be the one making the recommendation, but is there a family member or friend that could lovingly confront her?<P>It's just a thought that occurred to me today. My MIL got my H to go to a counselor "for her" and it seems to be helping him with some issues that he can't talk to anyone else about.

Rick, Exhausted - she seems to be not as sad and down as a week ago. Could be because I know there's been a little more contact with OM - but I have very little info to go on here. Could also be influenced by her conversation with Steve, but maybe that's wishing for too much. We've only been around each other once for any length of time (at the Theatre) since she talked to Steve. And she didn't mention it. Just too many moving parts.<P>Exhausted, you're correct that getting a close person other than me to point her towards therapy would be a good thing to try. Unfortunately, OM is the only one able to get close to her right now - and I'm not certain about that. She keeps up a good front, although her parents and sisters are concerned, they don't want to intervene until she asks for help. I wish they were a little more aggressive, but they know she'll just slam the door on any offers of compassion until she's ready. Other close friends are understandably hesitant to get involved because she seems OK to them, although contact with other friends is down to a trickle since this all started. And why would they act on my request? From their vantage point, I could be the one screwed up. Several months ago, I asked her to go back to her shrink and she sternly replied that she'd go when she's ready.<P>So, Hybrid A/B continues. Thanks for your thoughts.<P>WAT

Exhausted- any thoughts?<P>WAT

Hey, I hope the Scooge message hit home. My H and I recently watched Merry Christmas Charlie Brown - and when I have down moments, he calls me "CB." It really is funny how all those sappy old stories really hit home in a different way when you're an adult. Maybe you could get her to watch the Grinch Who Stole Christmas? That's next on our list. . .<P>I wish I were one of your wife's sisters. I think it's hard for people who have never been through this to really understand. Some people may view you as the "bad person" - that's to be expected, really, but they just don't know all of the dynamics involved, so don't let that get you down.<P>Another thought, for me as a WS, going to church has been - uncomfortable - it's hard to explain right now, but I guess my point is, if she plans to go to church at Christmas, it would be interesting to see how she responds to all of the messages involved - similar to Mr. Scrooge - about rebirth, hope, salvation, etc. . . What are you all doing for Christmas? Maybe you could take her to a Christmas pageant or candlelight service. . .it would be interesting. I cry every time I go to church, and that's not a bad thing, trust me. It's kind of cleansing.

Dear WAT,<P>It is always hard coming up with new suggestions for people on this forum because almost everyone has tried just about every good thing you can think of. It always strikes me as so sad that all of us have been working so hard to change ourselves into better, loving people and going against human nature to do it (plan A is for saints, right?). And the one person in all the world that we want to notice all these positive changes is the one person trying very hard not to notice. I say this because I think that most WSs have to ignore anything positive about the BS or the guilt and sense of what they are giving up will overwhelm them. It does register somewhere with them at some hidden level I think.<P>Oh well, just a bit of philosophizing this snowy Monday morning. I'm sure from your previous posting that you've thought through the counseling for your wife issue quite a bit. It's probably also true that counseling wouldn't do much good unless she wanted to do it. Your W sounds like she prides herself on being a strong person that can handle things (your description of her during your son's illness gives me this impression). In which case admitting that she hasn't handled your son's death and her affair would be extra hard for her. Is there any way she would respond to a challenge, of sorts, to see a counselor? Something along the lines of a subtle suggestion that if she is really handling all these things so well that she shouldn't be threatened to talk to someone and confirm it. <P>I know this is a strange thought, but something my H said a couple times made me think of it. He said that he thought about our situation a lot and went to counseling with me even after he served me with divorce papers because if it was the right thing for him to do (to leave/divorce me), he shouldn't be afraid to think about it and keep examining it. I think it might have been his way of trying to show he wasn't in denial or foggy etc.<P>The only other thought I had had to do with someone in her family possibly confronting her with her need for counseling for the grief issue (with the hopes that if she went to counseling that the A issue would also come up.) This would depend on whether there was any family member that you trusted enough to do this. They would have to be convinced that waiting for her to crash and admit she needs help may be dangerous for someone like your W who seems to really need to be strong. They would need to realize that she may be mad at them for "interfering," but that is what a loving family member does sometimes. They would also have to not mention your involvement in this in any way. <P>Another thought might be for you to talk with a counselor specializing in grief thereapy to see if they have some ideas for helping your W.<P>I'll keep thinking about this, but that's what comes to mind now. Good luck!<P><BR>

SKM - we plan on being together for Christmas - to a point. She'll come over Christmas morning and we'll open presents and stuff - for the benefit of our son. Then we'll drive 75 miles to the town where her folks and one sister live and have Christmas dinner at her parent's house. It'll probably all be cordial like Thanksgiving was.<P>Funny you mention going to a church service. I don't know if we'll have the opportunity, but I like your suggestion - I'll look for an opportunity. She was brought up as a Methodist, but last spring suddenly started going to a Catholic Church because that's where OM's family went. Kind of ironic. <P>Decipher this: One Sunday back in July, she and my son arrived home from Catholic services as I was walking the dogs. She walked down the street to where I was and announced sternly, "I'm going to end this sordid episode. I'm tired of lying and I've I've hurt you too much. Maybe we don't need a separation afterall!" Well, whatever motivated this - a message in church or a snub by OM - it was short lived. By the end of the day it was foggy again.<P>WAT (Dave)

Exhausted - thanks a lot for your suggestions. I think I'll try once again to try to get her parents to approach her. Other than that, I keep looking for the right mood in her to suggest it myself. I'm trying to do it by example by seeing a therapist myself - for my general issues associated with the A, but I intend to get into the grief issues also. I haven't had the first session yet, but I plan on telling my wife about it and then suggesting that it might be good for her to confront any remaining grief issues, since it's helping me.<P>Your assessment of her stubbornness is correct. She readily admits she's stubborn and it's her biggest problem. So it'll take longer for her to either accept help or find it herself.<P>Thanks so much for your compassion. I don't know where I'd be without this forum and the great people like you all.<P>WAT (Dave)