I was just reading some more of the articles in the Q/A section of this website. In articles about one person spouse trying to save the marriage, Dr Harley says we should ask our wayward spouses what they feel was not being met, or what unhappiness came from the betrayed spouses actions. My question is, he did not specify if it would work in an affair situation. Since my wife is in early stages of fantasy affair, would talking/discussing our marriage shortcomings/insights be helpful to us, or is the topic a form of lovebusting or withdrawing love units? I am still in plan A, wife does not mind talking (mostly superficial, but still friendly) on almost daily basis. I am trying very hard not to do the wrong thing. I already regret helping her move out, (I did not fight it, even gave her money to do it, ugh!)).

izzy, I don't consider myself an expert. But the plans were designed for marriages with infidelity in them.<P>With wife gone, it is probably an off subject conversation. But I don't think it is a lovebuster. It's that you probably won't get a real answer.

Izzy - Great Question!!!<P>I've been pondering how far to go with conversation with my H. Although there have been one or two reasons (problems) given by H about me - it really does not touch upon too much.<P>If you don't mind - Can I also ask the experts how much - if anything - can be said by us if we feel that what they tell us is either misinterpretation on their part or can be explained?? Do we explain? Of course without LB's but is the "aura" of trying to correct a misunderstanding a LB in and of itself?<P>Or do we just make a list of what they say and come here and post our laundry to hash out what is the best response if we aren't sure?<P>Hugs and Thanks Izzy!!!<P>Sheba

Sheba, izzy - Good questions. Does it depend upon the individual and circumstance? <P>Where is K and Chris when ya need 'em!<BR>

izzy,<P>Tnt is probably right in that you may not get an "accurate" answer. If your wife would be willing to fill out the Emotional Needs and Lovebusters questionnaires, those would help.<P>Lovebusters is usually the main issue during plan A. With a wife who is gone and having an affair, you have to ask yourself what needs could you possibly meet for her. Maybe she wasn't happy with the way you met her needs for sex and affection---that's important information for you, but it's not likely that you're going to have an opportunity to do squat about it until the affair is over. The major place that you can have an impact is in FAMILY COMMITMENT. That's where I'd focus.<P>If you want to bring this up, ask her (nicely) if she would be willing do these questionnaires, and perhaps go over them with you. Let her know that you want to address shortcomings of the marriage. If she says "well, we're going to be divorced..." let her know that it's important to you that you address the way she feels regardless of your marital status---you have a child that will bind the two of you together for life. If she still doesn't want to, thank her for listening to the request. Don't try to "convince" her.<P>If your wife was dead set on moving out (you had let her know that you wanted her home), then you did the right thing by helping her move. It shows kindness, unconditional love, and generosity. You may not see an immediate payback, but these things get "tucked away" in your wife's mind.<P>Sheba: depending on what your "traditional" mode of lovebusting is, some areas are off-limits. For me (obviously), disrespectful judgements are a major no-no. I have given up trying to educate my wife for her own good. I try to stay away from statements and habits that demonstrate that I'm going into "teaching" mode. This is more important while an affair is active. <P>Once in recovery, you should be learning "Complete Honesty" and the POJA (and negotiation). You should be able to do this without the lovebusters associated with these (disrespectful judgements, demands, angry outbursts).<P>Steve Harley hammered a very important point into me early as I was dealing with my wife's affair. If I upset her---NEVER DEFEND---apologize. If your explanations sound like defenses, then you're better off finding another route for expressing what you need to say.

tnt---<P>I'm here... I've got a member of the Board of Directors touring our facility in a couple hours, and I've got meetings with senior VP's this afternoon... I've got nothing better to do than hang here (YIKES!!!)<P>

As most of you know, I've been trying to meet my H's needs better for well over a year before he finally admitted to cheating one time years ago.<P>I have asked him several times what emotional needs I'm not meeting. He always says that I'm giving him everything he needs, but I know I'm not.<P>I think that one of the things that has always made him unhappy is that I have not always done what he wanted me to do. He is a "control freak," who wants everything "his way," and I've often rebelled against that. To give him credit, he's stopped *itching at me for doing things like going shopping, spending money on things for myself (he used to not want me to spend hardly anything without his approval). To tell the truth, it's only been within the past few years that I've been able to buy myself reasonably nice clothes without feeling guilty. When I was staying home with our kids, I MADE theclothes for our daughter and me for mere pennies, so it's kinda hard for me to spend more than a few dollars on clothes because I know how cheaply I could make them. The difference now is that I work long hours in our business and don't have the time for sewing.<BR> Lordy, here I go to rambling again.<BR> Anyway, the only progress I can see is that he was able to very nicely tell me the other night that my habit of saying, "No-no-no-no" when trying to explain something gets on his nerves. I never knew that, and I'm surprised that he hasn't already told me, "I wish to hell you'd stop that no-no-no-no s***," only in an ugly tone of voice. One of the things I addressed in my drunken tirade Saturday night was the fact that for years and years, he has talked to me with total disrespect. I told him that he talked to total strangers with more respect than he talked to me--the woman he's supposed to love more than anything. This has been an issue between us for years, but he never seemed to pay attention before.<BR> Yesterday, after visiting the OW's grave, I badly needed to talk with someone. I decided to confide in the wife of the couple we went camping with a while back--the one who took him to task for the way he was treating me that weekend. She told me that she was so shocked at the way he talked to me that weekend because he has always bragged on me when talking to her and her H. She said that he once told her H that I was the best thing that had ever happened to him--that he wished he had 1/2 of my intelligence. My best friend has also said that he talked about me in that way. They both tell me that they KNOW he loves me very much. Some of my H's friends have taken him to task for being "ugly" to me.<BR> However, attempts to talk to him calmly and lovingly with "I feel" statements don't work with H. He becomes angry and defensive and "talks over" me, no matter HOW nicely I try to explain these things to him. This is increasingly frustrating to me until I finally blow up after several months and let him have it--BIG lovebuster!<BR> I also know that my H has a problem with feeling intellectually inferior toward me, but he's not. He's a very smart man, and I've told him so, many times. He's not book-smart, I think because of learning disabilities, but he has so much common sense and "street smarts." He didn't finish school, and I went to college, which seems to bother him immensely. Many times over the years, he's made the comment that I think I'm smarter than he is (not true), or repeatedly told me how stupid I am (also not true). I should add that, because of severe hearing loss from early childhood, I have had to deal with people treating me as though I am "slow" just about all my life, and I am somewhat sensitive to that sort of treatment. In the workplace, I learned to address it head-on, and have always busted my butt to prove that not only could I do the job, but I could do it better than anybody else. I have made people eat their words as to their perceptions of my abilities on more than one occasion. Anyway, at one point, he admitted to me that his inability to read well really bothered him. He can read, but not well. I offered to help him with it, but he didn't want to do anything about it. He rejected any suggestion about an adult literacy class. He's ashamed of it, and he shouldn't be.<BR> So, how can I help him with these problems? We're supposed to go to joint counseling next week. Should I wait to address these issues in counseling?<BR> I am trying mightily to Plan A him to death, and for the first time, he really seems like he's trying. I guess maybe his confession may have lifted a load off his shoulders.<BR> But, I'm just at a loss at how to address these problems. He is very "macho," and I suspect that he may feel that discussing these things with me will make me perceive him as "weak."<BR> Any ideas as to how I can help him overcome these issues without love-busting?<BR>

tnt & K - thanks for your feedback, I just need some guidance and thoughts on this whole dilemma. I find myself thinking about it all day even during work. Check this board like 3 times a day. Yes, my wife is in lala land. <BR>On another thread someone had suggested I try to ask her on outings. I did not think she would say yes, but I tried. Yesterday, I asked if she would like to go to a christian concert this weekend. (BTW, i think OM is out of town, she has had plans this week with other people she has actually told me about). Yesterday, she sounded like maybe she would, and then today I called for her answer and she said, "I don't think I would like to go". She is trying so hard not to get close to me (at least alone), but she did offer a family get together this Sunday for the child switchover. So, K, I am doing the Family committment thing as much as I can. It just really feels like brick walls are everywhere. <BR>I know, patience is the key, and this monday will be (4 wks since moveout) and 10-11 weeks of her feelings/affair for OM. I have given myself til the end of the year. I just hate the pain. I agree most any talking to her, would probably not get me any real answers. But K, or anyone else, my greatest fear is also that time will allow her to get in emotionally deeper with OM (if possible to get any deeper), maybe move in or spend every night together (same dif), and time away from our marriage will also heal her from our love/marriage.? Will she remember any of the positive aspects of our marriage? Will I? Harley says both partners will come to reconciliation with love banks empty for each other? Did you and your wife actually feel that way? I just have a hard time believin' the way she feels now about us, can change that drastically even if affair ends. She wants that high she is in now, and I suspect she will want to wait for it again with someone else instead of coming back to the comfort and not so "high" (she has always felt like she did not have that high with me). Well, as you can see there is more doubts today, but I am clinging to the hopes these plans can give and working on myself and learning marriage skills.

izzy,<P>I hate to say this, but it may actually take your wife getting more "emotionally involved" with the OM as a step to recovery. The more involved, the bigger the hurt when the affair crumbles, and they almost always do. When the affair ends---that high she feels with have turned around and have become the biggest low that she's ever experienced. The feelings of inadequacy, shame, bitterness and anger may be overwhelming---it's likely that she'll NOT want that kind of high again.<P>You ask about "lovebanks". My wife's lovebank index for me (the lbi quesitonnaire that Steve uses) was probably negative. I intercepted comments from her like "She had married me for the wrong reasons" and "She never loved me"... I could go on and on.<P>Her affair actually had the effect of making me realize how much I loved her, and helped me to recognize how I had hurt her. So my lbi for her went up at first. As the affair continued, it slowly eroded. But I left (Plan B) well before I didn't love her anymore. So that when we finally reconciled, my love for her was mostly intact, and her love for me had probably gone from negative to neutral, because of my Plan A efforts.<P>Again, you need to give this time to work. Talk to your counselor (Dr. Chalmers?) when you're feeling doubts or have questions about the process. It's not a pleasant process to go through, but there are much worse ways to handle it.

K,<BR>Thanks again for the insight from someone who's been there. I am doing this day by day. I understand the rollercoaster thing and my own waffling on waiting or moving on. I truly believe the affair will end, but wow you were so patient. I think I can only hold on to plan A until the end of the year, and in plan B maybe 2-3 months. By then it will have been about 9 months total. If averages say the affair could last up to 2 years, I cannot (will not?) wait that long. I have noted with interest, most of the people in this forum are over the age of 35. Does that mean most younger couples faced with this usually punt or don't put up with any affairs? I mean, I wasn't even married quite 4 years when this happened (I have read that is a prime vulnerable time in marriage...) I'm 33, wife 31 and I guess time is of some essence for me because I would like to have another child (with W preferably) before my 40's. A part of me wonders how invested in our marriage she may have been in a relatively short time, especially since some needs I did not meet(know how) since the beginning. She is so afraid of coming back, though I have told her and showed her I am changing and it would be different.

izzy,<P>A lot of the MarriageBuilder concepts for getting an affair-affected marriage to reconciliation work "better" if there are children involved. It also helps to be more "mature" about life, although I know plenty of mature 20-year-olds, and plenty of immature 50-year olds.<P>A timeline for Plan A is healthy. Don't worry about the timeline for Plan B. You stop when you no longer feel love for your wife. When YOU'RE ready to move on. Plan B's no contact does ensure that this "separation" period will last longer than if you were constantly lovebusting back and forth. After the initial shock of separation, I found Plan B much easier to take than Plan A. Some aspects were even fun---not doing house stuff, and having tons of quality time with my kids.<P>I was worried about the same issue of having "another" family should my wife and I divorce. And I'm 5 years older than you---it was a real issue. Not only could I not imagine not living with my children on a daily basis, I couldn't imagine not living like a family. I wanted a family, it was very important to me.<P>That's one of the reasons I fought so hard for mine. You're doing the same, too. Give yourself a gold star!!

K - Well another tough couple of days. I had my daughter this weekend, and I love her to pieces, but I hate the single dad feeling and I miss the family feeling, just like you said. I hate turning her over on Sunday (even for a couple of days). I had to cry on a few occassions this weekend, because I sense some of my daughter's sadness/uncertainnity with what is going on around her. (2 yrs 10 mths). Of course it does not help I feel pain too. BTW, I saw my wife this evening,and the pain is just as fresh as it was weeks ago. Now I am not losing love for her, or lovebusting, but I am finding it hard to put on a happy face around her. Does this feeling mean I am getting closer to plan B, since I find it easier not to actually see her? Also, she asked me if I could (no pressure, she even said don't feel pressured) have child next weekend too? I guess there is an outing of coworkers to go to cottage out of town (all women retreat kinda thing, usually done yearly). How accomadating should I actually be? I told her I had tentative plans, which I think I do if I can remember them? Drawing a blank at this time, but it will hit me soon on what I had wanted to do. Any thoughts on being supernice? I guess this sort of fits in family committment Plan A stuff? <BR>Oh yeah also, since you are a veteran on this board (or anyone else with guesses?). Based on our situations (rutger, chrisca,...) and others you have seen on this forum, what percentage would you say of women who moved out came back to try to reconcile? I know all the success stories may not come back to post, but do you have a guess on our specific situation? (Yes you are one, but of how many?) <p>[This message has been edited by izzy (edited September 12, 1999).]

izzy, inmy experience, talking about it while the affair was still going on or just after it finished ( there was a period of about 4 months in these circumstances ), was very dangerous. My H would get defensive if the subject would come up, not only was I not getting my answers, I was getting us many steps back. <BR>After deciding on another approach - one that for a time, avoided all the talk about the affair, the ow, or the reasons and justifications for what was happening - things started to get better. We did talk during that period of time. A lot, but on any other subject. I kind of tried to make it a relearning about ourselves thing. We talked about our goals in life - some had changed since we got married - the things that we find most important to us - some changes here too -, things we both enjoyed, things that bothered us, everything except the affair. He would be relaxed and comfortable talking about those things. I wouldn't get defensive answers ( that ended up hurting me because he's one of the people that firmly believe the best defense is atack ) ANd there were no arguments that could cause him ( as it did before ) to just grab his things an leave. With time we could talk superficially about the affair, but not really enter the deep stuff. Although he took a look at the questionaires, he never completely filled them out untill the affair was way over. <BR>As some in here already know, I decided to write down any questions I had, and keep them until I found he could respond without being clouded by the situation.<BR>In my case it worked quite well. Had I continued with the original line of action ( ) I can tell you that our recovery, that worked quite well - might not have taken place. But then, I made the changes because I know my H and how he reacts to things. In your case you are the person who knows how your w will react.<BR>My H affair ended about a year ago, and we're doing great.<BR>The secret I think,lies in knowing or spouse and using whatever approach we feel will work better, as well as being open to change it completely if we see it's not really working the way we expected ( after giving it enough time to make sure it is so ).<BR>Trying to find out what emotional needs where not being met before the affair is a very good idea, however if the affair is at it's "high" stage, you probably won't get accurate responses ( it can range from no answer at all, to a list of things that might not even have happened, and of course the reality is way in the middle ). The best thing to do I found is to look back and see what doesn't look like it was working that well before. That will give you an idea of where to work. But keep inmind that there's a possibility ( it happened to me, and some other people ) your w might not be ready to accept from you the things that she might be complaining you weren't giving her. Am I making this confusing? I'm a bit tired. Better give an example: My H gave me an incredibly long list of things I was doing wrong before ( as I said above, many of them didn't even happened, but some I had to agree), so I decided to correct them, he ressented ( although when I did it he agreed it was a good idea ) the fact that my paycheck was going to my account, and not to his.( we both had access to both accounts, althoug he never got interested on mine enought to sign the card or take note of the account number) SO I changed it, just to have him telling me to change it back or he would close the whole thing. It didn't really made much sense, but then at that exact time the lala land was really getting him a bit confused. Another thing he complained about was that I didn't work enough hours ( althoug I was making more per hour, so the amount in money was basically the same as if I had full time ). SO I arranged to have more hours, to have him complaining that I wasn't home enough. One more uring the worst period, he seemed to have trouble accepting that I could do things right.( On the other hand, the ow could do no wrong even if it was blowing in their face). If he had to admit that I had done something right, he would be fighting not only me, but himself. Thankfully, this phase didn't last the whole four months ( although there where some setbacks ) <P>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

izzy,<P>I think you've got a decent chance of getting back together with your wife. I'd love to tell you 95%, but I really don't know. Once you're separated, things do get harder. But it can still work. Stick with the plan (I still think you're doing well with your Plan A effort).<P>As far as making it easy for your wife by taking your daughter---the greater good probably will be served by taking her and rearranging your plans. You don't want to appear punishing to your wife. If you couldn't take her, be upfront about it. Try to use the POJA with your wife, even while you're separated. Negotiate. It'll demonstrate to your wife your commitment to her well-being.

kat - thankx for your feedback and experiences. I really like to hear other peoples strategies and what works or does not in specific instances. I hope I can do the things that my wife will respond to positively, though at this time I am so afraid of doing the wrong thing. She is def in the peak of her affair, so trying to talk about anything (affair, our marriage) negative is probably not a good thing.<P>K- Again, thank you for your encouragement. I look forward to your responses, it has really helped me stay positive and to hang in there. My plan A is going okay, I still am doing the hybrid plan a/b thing because I have a hard time seeing her and talking much beyond the superficial stuff. I am being positive. One last question and we will end this thread. I have sent her one card with my feelings and new enlightenment about emotional needs (affection, specifically). I was planning on sending one every two weeks, but do you think at this time it is actually too much or does it show her my changing thoughts and plans for implementing the changes? I do not lovebusting in them, just telling her what I have learned and how it applies to our last 6 months of marriage where I was not meeting that need. I tell her I love her, request another chance, but make no demands. I don't think she feels smothered or pushed, but it may make her uncomfortable. Funny, but I feel (maybe most betrayers feel this way)wife has a new loyalty/care/love for OM and feels like she is deceiving OM by talking to me, doing anything with me, or even getting items from me.

izzy:<P>Go easy with cards that appear to be "educating" her on your new behaviors. Let your actions do the talking. I think that the cards could be perceived as disrespectful, and I'd be careful of not putting out that kind of signal.<P>Cards that let her know that you love her or miss her is fine. Again, leave out the "reconciliation" part---direct mention several times of that will seem like a demand. <P>You're absolutely right in saying that your wife may feel like she's "cheating" on her OM with you. If she's inherently a "faithful" person, she's going to have a tough time reconciling having relationships with more than one man. That sounds crazy, but my wife treated me much in the same way. Chalk it up to the "insanity" that an affair embodies.

izzy, <P>I see I'm a little late in throwing in my 2 cents, but what better person to get advice from than K.<P>I can offer a few suggestions from my experience. Like you, I suffered, and I mean suffered with my W continuing her affair for several months while I was giving Plan A. I did all the wrong things at first and finally settled into an effective routine that showed her real change in me. <P>I think the unconditional love approach worked pretty well for me to get my wife to at least consider me a friend of hers again. As we progressed, after many months, I could start seeing some progress in her efforts to come back. She never left our home because of the kids, so I know you've got it tough.<P>I think communicating your feelings through cards or letters is great. Don't go over board. I wrote some pretty lengthy letters to my wife conveying my thoughts and feelings and I think it did help. She needs to know that you are committed to her and that you believ you both can survive this and have a happy marriage. that's what you both really want - that's what we all want.<P>Keep in mind that you have history on your side. Sure, there have been some crappy times most recently probably, but there were good ones too. Those good ones will work on her mind. breakup of the kids will work on her too. Pretty soon the OM won't be perfect. Faults will show up. and the conflict will start. Your plan A of loving her through this may be what brings her back. Don't give up. <P>Hang in there.<P>SHA

SHA - Thanks for your feedback, I have been following your posts also. It sounds like great advice that I am getting and yes I am hanging on. I think it will get easier with more time. I need to show my changes with actions and loving cards/letters. I can see K's view point about not educating/or pushing knowledge onto my wife. I guess I will just sent affectionate cards, even though I will not be directly meeting that need at this time. But I liked it when K said, "she will tuck those actions into the back of her mind, for later use". For comparative sakes, how many months were you in plan A? Was it not hard all that time when your wife was around to know the affair was going on? My timeline I'm not sure about, wife went into marriage withdrawal around June 23-30, and her emotional affair started on June 23 ("accidental date with OM, talked for 5 hours at a bar/restaurant), and picked up in earnest around July 1. So her affair I guess is about 2 months old (11 wks), but she only moved out 4 weeks ago. So I guess I will count the affair as 2 months, and my plan A about that long since I was doing most of it when she was at home (along with some LB'ng though, before I knew about them). Thanks for any feedback

izzy, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will just sent affectionate cards, even though I will not be directly meeting that need at this time. But I liked it when K said, "she will tuck those actions into the back of her mind, for later use".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't go the Hallmark route. I put my heart into the letters I gave her. After I heard those common words we all do (i.e. I don't love you anymore, etc.) I wrote my wife a letter telling her what changes I was going to make in myself. I also gave her a list of 100 promises to her that I would do. On the anniversary of our meeting, I gave her flowers and I wrote her a poem about what we were going through. On her birthday I wrote a short love letter to her. On Mother's Day I wrote her a letter on what i thought she was as a mother. On our anniversary, I wrote a five page letter to her about what we had been through the past 6 months and my love for her. So, as you see, I wrote her often. Early on the letters and love notes were taken with lots of anger and rejection. Some on the cute little love notes were litterally crinkled up and thrown back at me. I would back off a little and certainly did not retaliate with love busting. K's right, those things do get tucked away in the back on their mind. Over time, she started seeing consistant change in me. I still give her cute little love notes. I send her email messages about things and I always try to have a little affection in them.<P>A good suggestion is to get a litle book called "Husband 101". It has a ton of little ideas on making your wife happy. It is the little things that do really count. Over time those little things are BIG things. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For comparative sakes, how many months were you in plan A?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm still in Plan A and I hope to always be in Plan A. I basically started last Dec and did a lot of wrong things for about two months. In February, I was on a more consistant plan. I started to see a little softening after 4 months. She was no longer angry at me which was a big thing. Real change in her started after my confrontation concerning the OM in early July. That's when she stopped seeing the OM. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Was it not hard all that time when your wife was around to know the affair was going on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Physical torture would have been easier to take over the emotional torture I went through. Izzy it nearly broke me as a man. i can not think of any greater pain in life. But, I think it helped me develop into a very loving husband too. Izzy I know it is tough. It takes everything you have to get through this. I had to become my wife's friend again before I could ever expect to be her husband again. Thank God for this site and the people here that helped me through. We WILL help you through it too.<P>My wife was in marriage withdrawal for about 3 months before I even knew anything was wrong - pretty sad. You are pretty freash into this whole thing so I know the pain is very intense. Stay strong my friend. So many betrayers here have talked about that bolt of lightning that struck them and woke them up. I don't know what your faith is but I prayed alot. I prayed for God to intervene. I prayed for God to break that emotional bond that was created. Stay with your plan. Maybe suggest outings with you and your kids together as a family. Just everyone spending time together is a biggie. And try talking as much as you can with her about anything - not marriage stuff. But, things she is interested in. Get to know her again. This was tough for me at first because I felt like I was interviewing her all the time, but keep trying. Work at becomming a good conversationalist. My wife and I can talk for hours now. 9 months ago we maybe talked for 1 minute a day and only if we had to.<P>I'm pulling for you. If I can help in any way, let me know.<P>SHA

Izzy/SHA - <P>I have been following this exchange for a while. You see, Izzy and I have almost the same exact situation. My W moved out on June 21, Izzy's June 23. My W has filed for divorce however.<P>I have been reading your advice to Izzy SHA, and I must say that I find it very comforing as well. Last night was hell for me. My SIL thought she detected a destabilization of the affair relationship over the weekend, but W came by yesterday to pick up her fall & winter clothes from the house. It seems that she intends to be gone for quite a while longer.<P>The pain during this waiting is just about the worst thing I have ever experienced. Unfortunately, I didn't really have a chance to go into a Plan A. My W moved out before I even knew about the affair. Any advice you give Izzy I will be reading as well.