I first posted in the IN RECOVERY forum. I had no business there but I so badly need help and advice. <P>First a little background. My H and I have been together for about 5 1/2 yrs. We were both in a state away from our family and friends. Our relationship pretty much skipped the dating part and therefore we are virtual strangers with little in common. He was married when I met him and didn't tell me because essentially is was just on paper. His first W had an A about 6 weeks into their marriage. He was in the Army at the time and she was living with her family in their home state. Anyway, he went thru hell because of it and swore to me that he would never put anyone thru that. <P>Nov. 19, 2000 - D-Day. He had an A with a co-worker. I pretty much knew something was going on so when he told me, it really was no surprise. With who was also no surprise. OW is the company's resident slut. She cheated on her H then proceeded to flirt and sleep with almost every guy they work with. She has even been with H's brother. <P>I kicked him out the first day and by the next morning, I wanted him back desperately. I practically begged him to come back and pretty much allowed him to treat me like dirt while I waited for his decision. After that week, he told me it was over but in the end couldn't leave. He asked for us to try again only he didn't. For another week, he again treated me so badly. Again, I kicked him out. I said a lot of mean things for which I apologized for the very next day. <P>I believe I've been in Plan A since then. When he wanted to try again a few days later, I told him that we would have to talk. That I was willing to do anything and everything to help us get past this. He also expressed his willingness to work on us. That lasted for about 5 days. Now, he wants to put it behind us and go on as if all is better. He still works with her and is not willing to change jobs, shifts, or stop talking to her. He says that he misses her sometimes. I've told him that feeling the way he does about her and continuing to have contact leaves the door wide open for the A to resume. He says he's tired of seeing me cry because he can't deal with the guilt. He's tired of all the talking. I've only asked that he talk to me about his feelings and thoughts. I've told him what I need from him to help me get past this. He's not willing to do any of the "hard" stuff. <P>I haven't done any LBing to my knowledge. I've done everything I can and know to show him that I love him and that I really want to get past this with our marriage intact. I've tried my best to meet his EN and he said he's happy with how we're doing in regard to those needs. Of course he is...his EN's are being met. Mine aren't. Not the one's I really need right now anyway. I don't know what else to do.<P>Jim, I've read your general welcome and also your post titled Plan A - 101. You've helped clarify Plan A for me and now I'm not so sure that I'm implementing it correctly. In this post, you state that anything that would make the WS unhappy can be deemed an LB and that the WS defines the LB's. My question is this, since the main things that are making H unhappy are my need to continue talking about OUR feelings, needs, and wants and my inability to sweep this under the rug, are those things considered LB'ing? If so, what am I supposed to do now? I'm in the process of looking for a counselor. I know I need one and he has said that he's willing to go although I doubt that he will.<P>I'm afraid to talk to him about this anymore. I'm afraid that by doing so, I'll push him right back to OW. How do I deal with his continued contact with her? The contact is brief and from what's he's told me, they don't talk about the relationship they had. How do I work on saving our marriage without his help? Maybe my understanding of Plan A is way off. I'm sorry, we've only been at this for 2 weeks. <P>Please give me some advice, some input on how you see our situation from what I've said. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, I feel so completely lost. I'm sorry this is so long. Thank you for reading it and thanks in advance for responding.<P>Me

JustMe4Now,<P>I'm honored you seek out my advice...<BR>...but don't lose track of the many other good... helpful... and wise folks here!<P>They can carry you through the rough days too!<P>OK...<BR>...about your post...<P>"... my inability to sweep this under the rug, are those things considered LB'ing?"...<BR>yep... if taken to an extreme.<P>Solution(s)...<P>1. Get into counseling fast... even if it is alone... you can ease your suffering and anguish by having a competant counselor guide you through the tough spots... I strongly suggest MB counseling if possible... or see if they can give you a referral.<P>2. Keep up with as much Plan A-ing as you can...<BR>...you clearly aren't at the point where Plan B is the right road...<P>3. About his "lack of communications"...<BR>a. Express <I>lovingly</I> that you have a need to talk...<BR>b. Let him know you will NOT be confrontational or judgmental<BR>c. Most important... let him know that you're going to keep it short....<BR>...for no more than 10 minutes a day<BR>...to be slightly increased later... when both are comfortable with it.<BR>d. But... you need it for each and every day<BR>e. Make it NOT the last 10 minutes of the day... everyone is too tired. Plan out a time you both can agree on...<BR>f. Consider making it at a time he is relaxed (but not falling asleep)<BR>g. Great time to bring him a smoke, a drink, a foot rub (all good Plan A atmoshpere builders)<BR>h. Doll yourself up a bit too... that will help you feel good too!<BR>i. Agree... that at the first sign of arguing... the conversation stops for the day! And... no sad puupy dog eyes when it happens... Show joy in that the conversation went even ONE minute.<P>4. OK... about the contact.... <B>YOU CAN'T</B> stop it during Plan A. Don't beat yourself up over this. If the time comes when this is no longer acceptable to you... i.e. you can in all candor accept the possible failure of your marriage... then you move onto Plan B... Plan B let's you stop it... but with great risk and hard struggles on your part.<P>5. 2 weeks is far too little to give up (Plan A-ing)...<BR>...I'm not saying give up... and tell your H it is NOT acceptable for him to have contact with the OP... (he has to be told continually (2-4 times a week) that you are hurting from it)<P>6. Wherever/Whenever possible... try not to show signs of weakness... begging... or neediness. Let him see that you are improving... <B>by not just your words.... but your actions as well</B>.<P>Please... please... please....<BR>...realize there are no guarantees...<P>Take what I say with a grain of sand...<BR>...my divorce may in fact be final tomorrow. <P>But I know...<BR>...by all I have done in 14+ months of Plan A-ing...<BR>...I made myself a better human...<BR>...and a better person...<BR>...and if providence leads me there... to a new relationship... so much healthier than before.<P>It wouldn't have happened, unless I did the best Plan A I could muster!<P>BTW: If you haven't heard it lately...<BR>...<I>You are loved</I>...<P>Hang tight...<BR>...especially through the holidays.<P> <P>Jim

Jim,<P>I do have a question for you. How can I be successful at plan A when H is out of the house. Is it OK to call him and do it? Help me with some things I can in order to have the contact I need in order to plan A him?<P>I am so sorry to hear of your divorce. I cannot believe how you can still be so positive to all of us here when you are faced with this. I guess it shows plan A works one way or the other.<P>I would also like your advice on this note.....<P>Thsi is what I was going to add to his xmas card... <BR> I am sorry when you left I did not know what to say to you to help you find your way back to me. I was hurt and felt so scared I couldn’t do anything but be angry. The love of my life was walking out of my life. There was a foundation in which our love was based on, and in time I hope deep inside of you the day you will come when you can accept that and cherish what we may have. I understand you do not trust me with your feelings, your emotions, your desires, your fears, your love. I know you made one of the hardest decisions in your life when you chose to stop drinking and I feel saddened that you could not come to me for the support you needed and I understand why you ran. You will find the happiness in your life that you are seeking just remember to look within yourself for it. You truly have been the only person in my life who loved me unconditionally this I know. <P>Here are a few of the items I look at that help me to know that you truly have the deepest love for me. Right now I understand that love has been buried. It is not dead just hiding because I never met your emotional needs. I will someday restore your faith in me. I understand you are in a fog, due to all of the changes you have made and the excitement of your new life. When this settles I will still be here loving you always…….<P>

Goochy,<P>Yes... you can call your WS and Plan A...<BR>...but you have to be careful! LBs happen quickly.<P>OK...<BR>...about your note...<BR>...which should be like a Plan B letter (i.e. a love letter)... that minus the "no contact" & "conditions for coming back"...<BR>...some call this a Plan A letter.<P>"I am sorry when you left I did not know what to say to you to help you find your way back to me. I was hurt and felt so scared I couldn’t do anything but be angry."...<BR>...saying this is the past tense is OK...<BR>...but all future message should show that you've grown...<BR>......i.e. no fear<BR>......and... you know how to control your anger now<P>"The love of my life was walking out of my life. There was a foundation in which our love was based on, and in time I hope deep inside of you the day you will come when you can accept that and cherish what we may have."...<BR>...a bit judgmental... putting your expectations of him on a (maybe unreachable) high plateau. He may feel he can't attain that plateau.<BR>...implicitly knocking yourself too low!<P>"I understand you do not trust me with your feelings, your emotions, your desires, your fears, your love."...<BR>...here... you're putting your ability to supply his ENs out of reach...<BR>...you've got to say and do... what needs to be said/done to make clear to him... <B>you can meet his needs</B>!<P>"I know you made one of the hardest decisions in your life when you chose to stop drinking and I feel saddened that you could not come to me for the support you needed and I understand why you ran."...<BR>...a simple "I can now and will always help you with your drinking... with judging you"... would be best. <P>"You will find the happiness in your life that you are seeking just remember to look within yourself for it."...<BR>...you're preaching/teaching with this one.<BR>...what you say is true... he jsut may not believe it... and it could lead to tensions if you/he argue this point... when he is in the "fog".<P>"You truly have been the only person in my life who loved me unconditionally this I know."...<BR>...it's time to restate that <I>"earthly" love <B>IS</B> conditional</I>...<BR>...and you know how to make it work!<P>"Here are a few of the items I look at that help me to know that you truly have the deepest love for me."...<BR>...if he's in the "fog"... don't claim you know better than he...<P>"Right now I understand that love has been buried. It is not dead just hiding because I never met your emotional needs."...<BR>...it would be good here to be explicit on which ENs you have not met...<BR>...and then say that you not only recognize that you haven't met them..<BR>...but explain how you will meet them in the future!<P>"I will someday restore your faith in me."...<BR>...not <I>somday</I> ...but that you'll be working on it starting now!<P>"I understand you are in a fog, due to all of the changes you have made and the excitement of your new life."...<BR>...judgmental... and you're making excuses for him... he may also feel your patronizing.<P>"When this settles I will still be here loving you always……."...<BR>...I caution <B>everyone</B>...<BR>......stay away from <B>always</B>....<BR>......realize that any Plan A... may have to be followed up with a Plan B... and even worse.<P>------------------------<P>I hope you didn't feel that was too critical...<BR>I do have a trendancy to point out a few too many of the LB-type statements...<BR>...maybe even reading into your thoughts the potential LBs.<P>I hope it helped... a little...<P>The emphasis needs to be on...<BR>...making it a true love letter<BR>...no LBs<BR>...avoid reference to OP (you did good here)<BR>...explain your growth<BR>...apologize (but no grovaling(sp?))<BR>...show you are strong!<P> <P>Jim

Jim, <BR>Thanks so much for responding so quickly. I re-read my post and it does sound as if your's is the only input I was looking for. I've been reading these boards for over a year now. I don't remember how I came to find the MB site but every time I come here, I find something I can relate to my life. <P>There are many, many wise and helpful people here. The support and encouragement given is truly from the heart. The advice and insight is outstanding! I would really appreciate any advice/comments from ANYBODY!!!!<P>In reply to your solutions.....<P>**1. Get into counseling fast... even if it is alone... <BR>I have an appt for this Fri. H said that he would probably go with me but if not, I'm prepared to go alone.<P>**2. Keep up with as much Plan A-ing as you can...<BR>I'm trying, I really am. This morning I found a poem titled "Right Now..." in the Poems forum. I printed it out and underlined the sentences that I feel express some of the things I'd like to say and I gave it to H. He read it but didn't say a word about it but that's ok because I feel that it gives him something to go back to when "stuff" gets to be too much for him.<P>Also today, we went to pick up our S from school. In our truck I found a pic of a little girl sitting in Santa's lap. It was between the passenger seat and the console. I knew it must be OW's daughter but still I asked him who it was and why it was in the truck. He said that it must've fallen out of her purse. He said that he talked to her this morning after work. He told her that we're doing really good and that we're happy. He told her that whatever feelings she has for him, she needed to let go and leave him alone. I'm so uncomfortable with his having work-related conversations with her so even though this one was a positive one for us, it still was hard to deal with. I almost started to cry but was able to stop myself from doing so. He swore to me that nothing happened between them, that they only talked. I told him that I believed him (although the doubts are inevidably there) but I also told him that knowing he was still having contact with her hurts me. Especially since he has told me that he misses her sometimes. I told him that I wouldn't put it past her to have left the pic there on purpose. He said she probably did. I did it in a calm, non-blaming, non-threatening way. I did crumple up the polaroid pic and told him that she'll have to take her daughter to see Santa again. Then we came home and I burned the pic. LB? Probably, but I don't think it was a big one. How'd I do? <P>**3. About his "lack of communications"...<BR>a. Express lovingly that you have a need to talk... <BR>b. Let him know you will NOT be confrontational or judgmental<BR>c. Most important... let him know that you're going to keep it short....<BR>...for no more than 10 minutes a day<BR>...to be slightly increased later... when both are comfortable with it.<BR>d. But... you need it for each and every day<BR>e. Make it NOT the last 10 minutes of the day... everyone is too tired. Plan out a time you both can agree on...<BR>f. Consider making it at a time he is relaxed (but not falling asleep)<BR>g. Great time to bring him a smoke, a drink, a foot rub (all good Plan A atmoshpere builders)<BR>h. Doll yourself up a bit too... that will help you feel good too!<BR>i. Agree... that at the first sign of arguing... the conversation stops for the day! And... no sad puupy dog eyes when it happens... Show joy in that the conversation went even ONE minute.<P>I've done A, B, D, G, and H. I haven't always picked the best time and we really haven't argued. After reading C, I realize that our talks probably have been way too long for him so I will be keeping them to 10 minutes, as you suggest.<P>**4. OK... about the contact.... YOU CAN'T stop it during Plan A. Don't beat yourself up over this. If the time comes when this is no longer acceptable to you... i.e. you can in all candor accept the possible failure of your marriage... then you move onto Plan B... Plan B let's you stop it... but with great risk and hard struggles on your part.<P>No, I can't. I hope that I don't ever have to move onto Plan B.<P>**5. 2 weeks is far too little to give up (Plan A-ing)...<BR>...I'm not saying give up... and tell your H it is NOT acceptable for him to have contact with the OP... (he has to be told continually (2-4 times a week) that you are hurting from it)<P>I DO tell him continually that his contact with her hurts me. For now, I just have to accept that he's not willing to stop it regardless. I think he feels that since he has ended that relationship and is home with me, any contact with her cannot be viewed as affair-related. I do believe that the A has ended but I also believe that emotionally, within himself, he's finding it hard to let go. He doesn't understand that any contact with her, however minimal or insignificant it may seem, leaves the door open for the relationship to resume. He doesn't understand that any contact with her, however minimal or insignificant it may seem, leaves the door open for the relationship to resume. <P>**6. Wherever/Whenever possible... try not to show signs of weakness... begging... or neediness. Let him see that you are improving... by not just your words.... but your actions as well.<BR>I'm trying very hard not to show any of these signs, especially the neediness. Try harder, I guess.<P>I'm so sorry about your divorce! I think you must be a strong and positive person to be able and willing to Plan A for so long. That you have been so supportive and helpful to everyone that comes here shows that you have a good heart and a kind soul. Thank you so much for all your help!!! God Bless!<P><BR>Me