Friends...<P>Pray for me on this...<P>My W still tells(only verbally) me she will bring up the children in the faith all(me,kids and her too) were all raised in...<BR>And... naturally I believe her...<P>Then... yesterday afternoon... after the court procedings... (see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/006838.html" TARGET=_blank>Leaving for court</A>) my attorney got a phone call from my W's attorney...<BR>...W's attorney said she would agree to sign the Property Settlement Agreement (PSA)... if I were to remove the key phrase... "...and each party shall use his/her best efforts to ensure that the children attend services and follow the precepts of the (children's life long)faith". ...<P><B>Now</B>...<BR>...here is my real pain...<P>My <I>step</I>son got home late last night from work...<P>I asked him a simple question...<BR>.."what he thought about the situation of the kid's(younger siblings) religious upbringing?"<P>Then he shocked me...<P>He told me my W said the following to my younger son, the week she took them to the OM's church...<BR>She said...<BR>"It's <B>my</B>(W's) decision to take you(the kids) to OM's church, and, <B>my</B>(W's) decision to bring you(the kids) up in <B>any</B> religion <B>I</B>(W) choose!"<P><B>I AM OUTRAGED</B>!<P>She is completely disregarding the "<B>joint custody</B>" aspect of the PSA...<BR>...acting in complete autonomy...<BR>...completely unilaterally...<BR>...and she refuses to <B>honestly</B> even discuss (face to face or e-mail for that matter) the religious upbringing of the children!!!<P>She is saying one thing to kids... another to me... something else to the attorneys and the courts!<P>I'm deeply saddened by this...<BR>There have been so many other lies...<BR>...(I try to not even post them here on MB forums anymore)...<P><B>I don't understand my W</B>!<P>...<P>I know which path I must take...<BR>...it is the harder path...<P>There was a signature I used to signoff with... quite a while ago... from a song I though much about...<P>"<B>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side... </B>"<P> <P>Jim

Jim,<BR>She proably doesn't even understand herself at this time. She has broken the bonds of marriage, obviously not displaying behavior that the church approves of and so is attempting to gain approval from the OM with this rebellion. Tnat rebellion is going to have a lot of forks in the road and she is going to travel many of them before she realizes that God is in control and He will bring hr right back to the one she started on and she will have to look at her reflection in the mirror.<P>You do have the tougher road, but you also have God's strength with you. God bless you, I will keep you in my prayers.

Jim<P>My prayers are with you. <P>It seems that you are going to be fighting a constant battle with your W over such issues. <P>It is such a difficult situation to have to keep bringing such matters back towards the court and attorneys.<P>Unfortunately the children sometimes end up pawns in the game and it is so frustrating when there cannot be a consensus.<P>You talk of going the hard road, do I assume this means you are reverting to Plan B?<P>My thoughts are with you.<BR>Colin

The practice of faith in a divided family is probably the most touchy issue that I can imagine. It is so important to give guidance to children in this world, you as their parent have this responsibility to teach them what you know will set them on the correct path. So, understandably, this is a point to fuss about when each parents feels that their faith is the correct one.<P>With all respect, I am asking: If, hypothetically, your kid's mom decided to sit down and discuss this issue with you in an open manner, and you came to an agreement, would you consider letting them attend their mother's church as well? They could attend both churches, is what I am saying, as a way to negotiate. You have to make some kind of compromise on this, it appears. <P>It may well be that she is using this as way to have some power over the situation. Or it could very well be that she has found a new belief system that she finds to be fulfilling and wishes to share it with the children. Do you know which it is?<P>In the end, as your children grow up to be adults, they will have to find their own testimonies of God no matter which faith they adhere to. This is something that you cannot do for them. Are you afraid that if the children do not attend church with you that they will loose their faith? I am not trying to be disrespectful when I ask this, I am just asking if you fear that they will stray if introduced to new beliefs?<P>I think the very best thing that you can do for them in this case is set the example for them--be diligent in attending your own church and exercising your own beliefs. Share your thoughts and feelings about God with them, according to your faith. <P>I do have this problem in my own strung out family, so I am not just talkin.<P>I have been married twice, sadly, to men that do not share my religion. This is something that I will insist upon if and when I ever do remarry--being wise to this now. <P>My first husband professed to share my beliefs before we were married (as a way to get me to marry him.) However, football games televised on Sundays are a far more powerful entity to him and I can't say that much else matters beyond that the whole rest of the week anyways. He is loosely associated with the baptist church in his town because he can drop the kids off there for Sunday school and get them out of his face while he watches football.<P>My second husband, from a very devout Irish Catholic family, now professes to be a diehard, unwavering atheist, very bitter, and as soon as our little son was born, he quite angrily forbid me to have him baptized. The way he presented this literally shocked me to tears--I had always been willing to negotiate with him concerning religion between the two of us (don't ask--don't tell policy, just like in the military) but I was unhappy that he forbid me to share what I felt was a truthful, joyful belief with my own child.<P>This is what happened in both circumstances, with all of my children:<P>I go to church. I am active, I participate in all meetings and activities, and I share my beliefs with my children. If they have questions about what I believe to be true, then I enjoy having a discussion with them. I try to set the example for them by living well and by exercising my faith. I do pray, and I do study the doctorine which I follow, which are the teachings of Christ.<P>My oldest daughter recently approached me about joining my church. This was completely unsolicitated by me. Actually, this was not just recently--she had been asking about it for over a year, and I had been telling her to research it, pray about it, and have a desire to commit to it if that is what she wanted. If she had a question of me, I would answer. She did all of this on her own. She is only 11 years old.<P>My younger daughter followed suit and was baptized the same day as her sister, about a month ago. I couldn't be prouder. <P>However, I had told the both of them to first ask their father what he felt about it. He said he didn't give a rat's patooti one way or another--just as long as there would be no "people" calling him and asking him to come too.<P>As for my son--as an infant, I took him to church with me from day one, even after the stern lecture that I was given literally on the delivery table. There was no further discussion, for the simple reason that my boy was just an infant and I needed to take care of him during the day. I thought that I was doing my husband a great favor by giving him two or three hours alone, for "me-time," to enjoy each week while we attended church. (Or as, the case may be, sufficient time to access all his favorite porn sites on the www in privacy without the nuisance of having family around.) Consequently, he never spoke up about our son being "brainwashed." When the little guy was old enough to talk, and would run home gushing about all the things that he learned in Sunday school to his father, I stood by waiting to hear "That's nonsense" or "There is no such thing as Jesus." (As I was told many times.) It never came, not once. Which is funny. Explain that one to me.<P>The only reason that my son doesn't like church is because he is one of those ADD kids and can't bear to sit still. But he still goes every week with me. (And blows spit wads in the service and makes me crazy, but that is another issue.) At five years old, he is more diligent about praying than I am. He prays for his father constantly.<P>But anyways, what I would advise to you is that you try to negotiate with your wife over this--it doesn't sound like she will budge or make your life any easier if you do not.<P>You remember that the best example that your children have is you, yourself, NSR,--but that you cannot "make" them believe anything--they can be taught, but they cannot be made to believe. What you can do is to be their mentor and standard to live by--which it seems that you are. They will not waver from this, ever, believe me, come what may.<P>Gotta go, shift was over ten minutes ago--Gads!

Jim, don't you DARE remove that phrase from the PSA!!!<P>She is doing something here that is a totally new level of evil: Using your kids as a weapon against you. In addition, she is utterly disregarding the wishes of your children in this matter! She is, in effect, forcing them to give up practicing their Catholic faith for her own selfish purposes.<P>I would hazard a guess that she switched faiths for two reasons: <P>1: To bond with the OM. It is another aspect of the fog. If he suddenly converted to Islam, she'd be right there with him, kneeling at the mosque.<P>2: I'm not too familiar with Methodist teachings, but I know how the Catholic Church views divorce and infidelity! Perhaps on some level, she is looking for a faith that is more forgiving in the area of...well, homewrecking! This is not to say that OM's church would look kindly upon what they are doing together, probably quite the opposite, but perhaps she feels she no longer has a place in the Catholic faith. Perhaps there is a deep seated guilt that makes her feel she is in some way no longer worthy of the Catholic church. <P>As to why she's bringing the kids into this struggle...? I hate to say it, but I have a friend whose X uses their D to manipulate and even hurt him. They fought this year over what school she would attend. She was going to kindergarten, and her dad had been paying to send her to a Christian pre-school. She was happy there, and it would've been in her best interests to continue at that school, as they offered K-3 education, and had 70% better test scores than kids in public schools. Even the family court adviser was impressed with the school. However, his X wanted her in public school...not because it was better, but to spite my friend! He had to actually get a court order to keep his D in her school!<P>Just a cautionary tale, Jim...stick to your guns!<BR>

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Dear jim<P>This is the first time i have sen you post for help. it is usually you helping otherss! I wish I could give you advice. But I have read carefully the responses you have received and realise you have food for thought there. Sadly, my religous conviction is neither strong enough nor informed enought o enter into the discussion.<P>But I want to share something with you - i was raised a Catholic; when my mother remarried it was to a Methodist. (An aside - my youngest sister once got he prize for attendance at both the Catholic and Methodist Sundays schools!!). For many years I struggled with my faith - and only very recently have I begun to understand that maybe the "squabbling" over religion contributed to my "wilderness".<P>Jim - a question; can you find it in youself to recognise the diversity of religion and simply encourage the faith in the Lord which we all need. <P>I fear that the difference over religion may be turning into a power struggle betweenyou and W. This may sound odd - but, to me, faith in the Lord is more important than the "branding" (keep in mind that I have a marketing background that tells me = belief in the broduct is more important than the brand name)<P>Keep strong Jim - I will be here over Christmas if you wish to continue the dialogue.<P>R

Jim,<P>God's Will will ultimately prevail!!<P>Continue to seek His guidance and you will be shown the right path...<P>Just keep doing the next right thing...<P>Love You,<P>Bill

Jim,<P>I need some help here. First, it seems to me there are several issues rolled up into one big mess. The first issue is that you W cannot be trusted not only with the marriage but with how she takes care of her children. THe issues of your stepsons money still isn't settled is it? <P>The next issue is even if you trusted her, this willingness to do what "SHE" wants without regard to the legal agreements or the common curtesy of talking with their father about things is a problem.<P>Finally, there is the religious issue. A very touchy issue itself. And even this is complex, because the particular religious organization that she wants the children to attend is the OM's not even hers. So the presence of the OM influcencing the childrens religious training is probably even the main issue.<P>Am I even close so far? If I am I do think you need to separate these issues and deal with them individually with the lawyer and your W. If and when she becomes a Methodist, then you really cannot forbid her from taking the children with her. I really don't know if mandating religious training can be enforced in a divorce decree, maybe it can.<P>However, her abilities to raise the children are in question. Her abilities to educate the children and provide moral guidance are in question. And her ability to stay out of jail may still be in question. Treat them separately.<P>I won't get into the religious aspects of the individual denominations because my background and experience is so different. I was raised in the military. There were three "religions" (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish). We are Protestant, but the minister at any given base was maybe a Baptist, Methodist, Luthern, Presbyterian, etc. Pardon my spelling I am typing fast). My mother was raised hardcore Baptist, my father Methodist. I have belonged to both churches in my life, but I now belong to a Presbyterian church. My Mother converted to Catholicism when she was 72 (no worries about birth control ). So I don't feel a really strong allegiance to a "church" but I do to religion in general. <P>I am clearly the wrong person to advise you about the religious upbring aspects, but I do think that this issue is more complex than just the religious aspect of the children. <P>I will say this though. I have known friends that went to "Dads" church and "Moms" church and they noticed the differences and became intriqued with the differences and finally realized the commonality of all of this. If this approach to religion is done in a "friendly" manner, the children can come out ahead. Heck, my mother used to really laugh when taking the conversion classes, because many times the perceived differences between what she was raised with and what she was converting to, really didn't exist. It was simply terminology. Yes, there are differences, but the similarities are much larger.<P>However, you may not feel this way and it is definitely your right. So again I would council that you sort some of this out. I realize all of it is a really "hot" button for you, beginning with the OM's presence in any of the decision making. I don't blame you one bit. <P>But I would suggest that you and the lawyer address each issue separately. One, is that she cannot do things unilaterly that you don't agree with in regards to how the children are raised.<P>Second, you do have reason to believe she is an unfit mother given the disappearance of your stepsons money. (I believe I am remembering this correctly).<P>Third, there is the issue of religion and who (you, W, OM) are going to make this decision. I do think that is really her trying to hurt you and bond with OM. The poor children are in the middle. But if you have primary custody of the children I would hope that your views are the determining ones. If that is so, then make sure the lawyers get this straight, not just about religion but many other things.<P>Sorry, I couldn't be of more help.<P>God Bless,<P>JL