I'm annoyed right now, so take my question with a grain of salt!!<P>What or who is a real friend? Will a real friend tell you there opinion on a matter or play it safe and sit on the fence??<P>My wife is the WS with an EA. No one will tell her what the right and moral thing to do is!! Her friends just want to be there for her and not tell her to do anything because if they are wrong, they don't want my W to be mad at them!! I think it's a crock of *#>$!!<P>I believe a friend should be able to give their opinion without thinking someone is going to be mad at them. My W's friends, in my opinion are weak! Instead of saying that you should try to forget about OM, work on the marriage and if it doesn't work out then you can say that you tried; they say that maybe you just need time to think things out to see what you want. My W moved out on Dec.2 to think things out. W says the OM is not a factor at this time. W needs space to see if she misses me and to figure out what she wants!! She hasn't had contact with OM for about 2 months.<P>Is my thinking off or am I right or somewhere in the middle. Should a friend express the right and moral thing to do or just "lick your feet" like a dog and say "whatever you think you should do."<P>Sorry for this post, but I'm extremely annoyed with peoples lack of back bone!!

You're right. A friend should give your spouse the "wake up" call. I wish more people would do that. It seems like most people really only worry about themselves these days. I wish someone would have said to my H, "What you are doing is so wrong" Go home and work it out". Instead, he got "You can't sit on the fence" "You need to make up your mind". People just don't want to be involved in anything remotely uncomfortable.<BR>Can you tell I still have some resentments?

You struck a chord with this one! I too have lamented the accepting nature of our society when it comes to adultery and divorce. I think we have all gone overboard with trying to be accepting of people and nonjudgmental. What we have lost is a sense of right and wrong and the willingness to stand up for it because we might be labeled narrowminded or not politically correct.<P>The way marital problems were handled in the "old days" was probably not ideal either (people consigning themselves to unhappy marriages because divorce was not an option, instead of getting help and working on the marriage.) But it did keep marriages intact and give them a chance to get better.<P>I agree with you that a true friend should risk anger etc. to tell a friend that they are screwing up. You are not off base.

I get annoyed at the lack of honesty friends of my wife use. Surely they can't think it is so natural that she would leave on a whim and call it quits without counselling.<P>My wife did tell one of her best friends that she had found someone she was crazy over. This was about 1.5 months after she said she wanted to separate. The friend gave her a blast of *&it and told her she was nuts, was in la la land, that the fantasy would wear off, and she should work on her marriage. My wife hasn't spoke to her since. She cut off contact with all her other friends too, and just sticks to the new set of single and divorced ones. She is always saying how wonderful and non-judgemental they are, because they just accept her and the separation.<P>Anyway, I think we all experience much the same. If the WSs only knew that they are like characters in the same play.<P>

I called over to my husband's friend's house once to talk to him. A guy picked up the phone and I asked for my husband. He laughed and yelled through the house "Does anyone know where "J" is?"<P>Another guy laughed "He's in the shower with his woman!" The two men busted out laughing. I thought, "Ha ha." They are joking, teasing the old wife.<P>Then went on and on in the background, laughing "She's such a dog. Woof! Bow wow!" "Yeah, older than dirt, too." They were going on about it so much, I realized that they were not just trying to tease me, it was an inside joke. They laughed and laughed, then one got back on the phone and said "Can I tell him who's calling?" My feelings were so hurt, because I thought they were talking about ME!! As far as I knew, I was his only woman.<P>I growled "Yeah, this is his wife." And the man just busted out with laughter and hung up.<P>I called the same house again, some weeks later, looking for my husband, and the same man answered. It was late at night. I told him who I was, and he hollered "Why don't you just leave "J" alone and let him live his life?" <P>I said "WHAT?!"<P>These guys are all military officers. Pilots. And obviously good friends.

Yup - many "friends" - even family - don't want to get involved. But, I think in many cases, they get denials from the WS, so it turns into a he said/she said. I tried to get some of my wife's close friends involved to no avail. One friend I trusted and confided in sent my wife some towels and sheets for her new apartment instead of asking her if she was off her rocker. My wife had her convinced that our separation was for long standing marital problems, and of course didn't mention the new man she was in love with. Anyway, it adds fuel to the argument against the affair if the WS won't tell their closest friends or family about it.<P>WAT

You know, we had this exact discussion once on the D/D forum! <P>I'm with you, ihurt, I think a real friend would tell their friend that what they are doing is wrong. Even if they don't want to be so black and white about it, the very least a true friend should do is tell them to consider all of the damage they'll be causing and all the people they'll be hurting. <P>I'm quite certain that most WS are hurting themselves and desperately looking to be loved by someone, but if only ONE good friend would tell them: You will not only be hurting yourself and your spouse, but your children, your family, your spouse's family, your siblings, the relationship between your spouse and your family, etc. that maybe it would be enough to stop it before it started. Maybe the price of their selfish needs would be put aside for one more try!<P>If only people had that moral courage anymore, instead of this blasted politically correct "supportive" attitude.<P>(climbing down off my soapbox)<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I'm going to go outside the norm here and disagree. I don't think it's healthy for anyone to tell another that they are Wrong and need to get a grip. Let me explain what my WS's friend did... I had animosity toward this woman even though I didn't know her because I felt she was leading My WS away. What she did was comfort her and console her. She wouldn't tell her she should go either way. What she did do is Put my children's pictures in a frame and put them in her room by her bed where she had to look at them every night. She sent her inspirational quotes that "led" my Ws back to where she needed to be. She NEVER told her... I know for me if someone tells me how I should do things it doesn't mean much. A friend should guide them and show them the way.... My Ws has one of the best friends I can imagine... I'm actually envious of her... Just my thoughts.. Crick

Crick, I think you make a good point. There are subtle, but very helpful ways, that a good friend can help point out the consequences of actions. I agree that telling a friend that they are crazy, wrong, going to burn in hell etc. would not be very effective. But I do believe that some action other than total acceptance is in order.

Hi Ihurt,<P>Good subject! In my case what has happened is my h (ws) has dropped all of his and our oldest and dearest friends and now surrounds himself with his new, divorced, set of buddies...and ow's family.<P>His friends ask me what happened, what did they do wrong...they did nothing, I think just seeing them, or just about anything to do with his old life makes my husband feel sad and guilty.<P>His family did try to talk to him...they love us both and their hearts are breaking over this...what did they get for their troubles? A man that will not talk to them about any subject deeper than the score of the football game. Very sad as H's mother is not going to live much longer, and he can't even face her.<P>If guilt is the punishment, my H is suffering tremendously. Hope it's all worth it to him to give up EVERYTHING he's ever known to get his hands on his co-worker...a woman I've known for 24 years. <P>So, even if her friends have tried, these ws's will not listen...they are too wrapped up in such a mess that not even the closest to them can get through.<P>They're only going to hear what they want to hear, and they're only going to surround themselves with people that make it all feel like it's ok.<P>allison

My H and I have a couple who basically have been both of our friends for 7 years. They are just as confused and shocked as I am.<P>In the beginning the husband felt that my H was being a coward and running from his problems and his family. After having a conversation with my H he changed his tune and said well he is happy now and maybe it wasnot meant to be. Of course H convinced him that LA LA LAND is more practical right now.<P>Christmas Eve the couple came over and we talked about the subject. They both see what he is doing and think he has flipped his lid however they will never tell him how they see it. I know that neither one of them want to hangout with H and OW. They feel she is a homewrecker and have no respect for her.<P>They also met her on of the times she came over for a BBQ and did not like her from the start.<P>I can understand why people wont say anything, they do not want to judgemental. My H has blown off all of his friends at this point in fear that they will not see things as he does.<P>Well a true friend should say their peace if H cannot handle it that is his problem he just doesn't want to hear that most people agree he is an idiot.<BR>Right now he surrounds himself with OW friends of course. They tell him what he wants to hear and have no idea who he really is. More Fantasy Land for him...<P>Oh well the day will come..... Game will be over he will be himself again and everyone can say I told you so..

In my case, even some of my family have taken to lunching, brunching and socializing with my stbx and the OW. They claim that it is for the childrens sake, but I think that it is just weenie. Society nowadays just seems to "go with the flow" and never has a backbone to take a stand on anything. <BR>

Even if WS' "true" friends gave their thought to WS I'm sure that wouldn't do anything.. My H's SIL and his one of friends told him what they thought. He didn't listen. It's true, that true friends should be honest, but even though I'm sure WS isn't ready to listen to them anyway, so my point is, whatever friends say to WS at this point it won't help.<P>Meg<BR>

My WS is like Allison's, he just dropped out of our old life, even when his closest friend try to talk with him he shut him out. Last May their daughter graduated, we have know & loved her since she was a yr. old. We both have taken our girl fantasy out on her, he had bought her graduation gift 9 mths before hand, he wouldn't go to her graduation. OS & I both told him he was invited, that he was wanted, he had tears in his eyes when we left. He could never face her. <P>My H"s family have been great to me. They will always love him, & they may have to accept the OW but they love me. It has torn my MIL to pieces. One of things my H has hard time with both of his siblings are divorce but it wasn't for adultery, & he can't understand why his family supports me. His mom came out last yr. & stayed with the boys when I 1st started teaching to help me out.<P>I think in most cases family & friends are dammed if they do & dammed if they don't. It is a no win situation. I think all they can do is tell them we don't think you are doing right but you are friend, this is what my BF did to my H, they let him know they cared, didn't approve, but they loved him & wanted him back.<P>My H's coworkers all thought he was nicer person with OW or so he said. She was coworker. Found out later that at least his very long time secretary had little or no use for her.

I know a friend should be there to support you in whatever choice you make. It is probably true that if friends or family tell the WS the right and moral things to do, the WS won't listen. It will go in one ear and out the other.<P>But in my case, W's friends, who's opinions she respects, didn't tell her the moral things to do, they played the supportive roll. My wife had asked for her closest friends opinion and her almost exact words were, "I don't want to give you that kind of advice or try to sway you one way or another because if it is wrong, I don't want you mad at me". This makes me sick!! Stand up for something!!<P>W's closest friend is a person who has a bubbly personality and gets along with everyone or try's to! I can understand that people don't want friends mad at you, but when your opinion is asked for, give it!! THE COLD HARD TRUTH HURTS SOMETIMES!<P>I feel that a friend should listen. I also feel that a friend shouldn't give their opinion unless asked for it or that it is appropriate at the given moment. The opinion of a friend should be truthfull in what they believe to be right and conveyed in such a way so that it is not judgemental.<P>I've said enough for now.

Mmmm...that's a tough one!<P>I think your real friends want what's best for you whether you think its good or not.<P>My WS friends make no moral judgements on her actions..if it feels good, do it! Only her boss has shown any kind of disapproval over what she's doing.<P>Many of my friends have been down this road before. The person who has turned out to be my best friend during all this is twice betrayed, twice divorced. He now counsels divorcing couples through his church. Whenever something bad happens, I can count on him. I call and say "hey, guess what just happened?" and he always knows what it was..."so, she's back with OM again? What did I tell you?" At every step, he's been there to say "I told you so"(and he's been right every time), but at the same time, whenever I tell him I'm trying to save my marriage, he says: "I know your heart is in the right place, and I don't think it will work, but God bless you for trying."<P>That, to me, is a real friend. Not afraid to judge, not afraid to speak their mind, not afraid to tell you you're acting stupid, and not afraid to support your stupidity 100 percent.

My two bestest friends in the world - (have known me for 25 and 35 years) both said - "it's time to get out" when I called them about this last 'friendship'. They have been with me through all of the events of our marriage - I was angry at them for not encouraging me to fight for my marriage, but respected their opinions. It did not hurt our friendship - we are all brutally honest with each other and always have been. <P>I felt is was my obligation to do everything possible to see if my marriage(19 years) was saveable - I needed to exhaust all avenues. That is what I did, our marriage is over, but we did everything we could to work through it - it just wouldn't survive the next years - we learned that and have decided to move on - as friends. <P>My friends couldn't believe I was giving him another chance, but respected my decision to do so. Friends don't judge - or shouldn't, they are just there to help when they are needed - it is ultimately your wife's decisions - or should be.

genesforme,<BR>I agree friends should not judge and they should be there for you! I believe a friend should analyse the situation and state there opinion when asked. Your friends felt that you spouse didn't deserve another chance. At least they gave their opinions. My wifes friends think I'm a good guy, heard nothing but good things about me except the taking for granted type issues, but still will sit the fence because they just want to be supportive! I wish people would take a stand on issues and stand up for what they believe in. Way too many people are content just sitting on the fence. I have sat on the fence on some issues and stand up for others and thats fine. I don't know, maybe playing things safe and sitting on the fence is the way to go. Who knows.