Hi all - newbies and oldtimers...<P>Today marks the two year anniversary of my discovery of my H's then 6 month affair. It is still going on - though OW still lives here in my town, and has not moved with H, I feel he is just waiting until our divorce is final. He now lives almost 300 miles from me, has bought his own home and is renovating and furnishing it, has a new job (to replace the one he lost because of the affair) and new friends who know little to nothing of the whole sordid, melodramatic last two years. We have finished negotiating our separation, child custody and visitation, and have not lived together for over a year - save one 2 month reconciliation and countless "weekend waffling" sessions. In fact, we were together and intimate just last weekend..but for the first time it felt empty and yucky - it feels like he is just doing me a favor... H is just "not there", or he is "there" for brief moments and then disappears again. He is in counseling, and has told me his goal is to find what will make him happy...that he needs to build his own life, and that will help him figure out who he wants in it. He has been treated for depression but is not currently. I know OW visits almost every weekend H is not with the kids. I on the other hand have never been invited to his new home.<P>To be honest, although it hurts to admit it, he does seem happier - at least that is what he shows me - since he has moved and gotten more settled. He had the kids this week and whereas previously he would call me and tell me he missed me and felt so strange having the kids without me there - this time everything was just "fine". <P>I am so very very tired, my love bank is empty, all I want now is for my kids to have a good relationship with their dad - boys need fathers and with the exception of this horrible affair, H has always been an excellent dad. I no longer trust this man with my feelings though and am tired of waiting for the "fog" to lift.<P>I have plan Aed my buns off for two years. I have counseled with Steve Harley. I tried plan B but with kids and coordinating long distance plans and in town visits - plus the overriding feeling that it is somehow contrived and fake, I could never really pull it off.<P>But having said that, I now find this endless ambiguity the hardest thing to live with. For example, H bought me a nice christmas gift that he had obviously spent time choosing, little sentimental gifts all packed in a big picnic basket, but then he turns around the next week and tells me he will bring the boys back new years eve, and when will I be home from my party because he has plans and will need to leave. It is excruciating and painful each time I watch him walk out that door. He wants to be friends, he still needs me I know in so many ways but as he has said to me he just can't commit. He feels he has tried several times (at least 3 failed break ups with OW) though I know that it wasn't really trying in any sense that could have worked (since OW contact continued).<P> I still love my H. But I can't do this forever. I have built up my own "new life" since he has been gone with new friends, learning to successfully be a single mom to two boys, learning to fill all the roles he used to fill, from handy man to cook to music critic and political analyst. I am finally seeing my self-esteem rise again and with that I am losing patience with waiting around for someone who just doesn't appreciate me or lacks the courage or trust to save something wonderful. I want a nurturing and fulfilling relationship again someday.<P>I failed my H in our marriage but I know how and why. When H would be angry and love bust, I would withdraw to protect myself, neither of us realizing how we were hurting each other by doing this. But through my extended plan A, H recognizes and knows that I have changed (and I see him changing his angry outbursts too). He has told me very recently that the way we interact now is how he had always wanted it to be between us, and that it was so "surreal" that now he is emotionally connected elsewhere... Yuck and double yuck.<P>It has been so long since I asked for advice here - this is my dilemma. We have intended to file for "legal separation" - this was my idea actually when H wanted to but his own home and I needed financial protection. H has still never told me he wants a divorce. In fact he still doesn't have his own lawyer to review the agreement. But, it turns out that in this state either party can convert legal separation to divorce unilaterally after three month. Some piece of me is so tired of the limbo and the feeling of waiting for the axe to fall. I dread filing a separation, holding on to my hope, only to have H convert it to divorce three months down the line because he can "handle" it then - more for his own convenience and comfort. I am needing closure I think to complete my healing, but me filing for divorce would go against my feeling that one shouldn't file if you still love your spouse and would want to reconcile if the conditions were right. But I feel if I don't get closure, I will never heal enough to fall out of love with him. Does this make any sense?<P>Any thoughts? Hard core plan b is not an option for me. (though reading back through this- it sounds like a textbook case for plan B). Right now we are just slowly becoming more emotionally distant from each other and it seems we are almost "helping" each other get ready to divorce (by trying to stay nice and civil, etc.) and it hurts. But then, one thing I have learned about all this is that it all hurts. I look forward to not hurting again someday.<P>Gosh, that ending was more depressing than I really feel. I actually enjoy my boys and my friends and life is good for the most part. There is just this big gap that used to be my marriage, and I miss it.<P>I appreciate your thoughts and wish everyone a joyous new year with family or friends you love.<P>Starpony

I don't know if I have any advice, but I do know where you are coming from, I think you reach a point that any resolution is better than Limbo Land. I don't know if I could file, or make it easier for my H to file, but I don't plan on being in Limbo Land when 2002 starts, we will be in recovery or else.<P>Good luck. I think most likely most of your hurt has already happened, be strong, do what is right for you & your boys. Prayers going your way.

I know the feeling to, and am not sure what to say. I am not far behind you in my feelings. It has been a year and a half for me. I am just now starting to see H perhaps come out of the fog a little so I now have some renewed hope. But its hard.<P>I do think 4 months with no cantact helped us both. It was only a sort of plan B because he stopped all contact and I just sent occasional letters. But it made me know what I want a litle better, and maybe gave him a chance to have OW try and fill his needs.( doesnt seem like she did a good job. )<P>Are you in counseling? Maybe you could talk to someone about what you want to do. I'm sorry I cant be more help.<BR>Lora

Sing - Ouch, your statement hit a nerve because I remember saying "I won't still be here in 2001" - the exact same thing. So I guess at one point I did know what I wanted. The thing I realize is that nothing will ever work with us until the affair is over (many dear MB friends have reminded me of this over and over!) and because he lives away (from both of us!) it could really take a very very long time.... I just need to decided what I need for me. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.<P>Lora - i know how you feel too. Seeing the fog lift is so encouraging, but just a little lifting is not enough. I am interested to hear that you think the four month separation helped you both. I think that is how I am leaning now - treat him as if we are divorced (even if we still just file separation) so I can get the healing I need. How are you and your H doing now?

Starpony,<BR>Hi! I wish this was all going better for you. As you know, even though I spent more than a year convinced that if my H wanted a divorce, he would have to file...but last year, I was feeling as you are, and I did serve the D papers. And, although we saw each other & communicated about the kids & the upcoming D, I was no longer his lover or best friend. The other separations I had always tried to be one or the other or both, since "wife" wasn't what he wanted from me.<P>I don't know if that was what made the difference, or that I was "moving on" with my life--in a more inappropriate manner than you.<P>8 months after Guard came home last May, I would say we're doing pretty good. Life, now that those hideous Xmas parties attended by OW are over, feels near normal. But we would never be here if Guard hadn't ended it with OW (or she with him...) and decided he wanted his marriage, me, and our family and worked his butt off to win us all back. I see my 15 year old smile and say nice things to him "Dad's cool" and I want to cry in relief (trying not to cry at all these days--too many tears have fallen).<P>I think, if you have reached the point where making love leaves you feeling yucky, you're ready for Plan B. I know you've tried it before, just like I had. But I *wish* I had gone to Plan B rather than serving D papers, but maybe it was the reality of the D papers that whooshed away the fog, I'll never know for certain which or all the components that made the difference in my H. But the WS he was, is gone, I have my H.<P>It really hurts to give up hope. And, I still feel that pain.<P>I wish you the best. <P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Hi Lor!<P>So good to hear from you. I hope that you and guard continue to care for and cherish each other. I read from afar about those hideous OW parties. I can't imagine! You go girl!<P>I too have tried to be lover and/or best friend during most of the separations. I just can't muster what it takes to do this any longer. <P>Yesterday I moved my bedroom (out of "our" room), cleaned out my closet, took down all the H mementos and threw as much of his stuff as I could carry into the attic. This is emblematic of how I feel now. My "moving on" doesn't involve someone else (yet) but I am getting there slowly in my own way. <P>I finally truly accept I can do nothing to cajole, persuade, prod or convince him to give up OW. Certainly being my sweet, generous, accepting, forgiving self has had no impact that I can see. It does hurt to lose hope, but sometimes not as much as continuing to hope.<P>Reminds me of that old joke - "Why do you bang your head against the wall like that? Because it feels so good when I stop!"<P>Take care Lor. <P>Starpony<P>P.S. So sorry about those Rams <P>

Hey Starpony,<P>Though I don't have as much time invested in the seperation as you do, I wanted to thank you for your honest, well writen post. The thing I see in it is that you may finally be thinking of what is going to make you start to heal. I admire that, and can tell that you have been through the gamut with all of this. I don't think you're losing hope, I think you are doing the perfect plan a...which means that you are discovering so many wonderful things about yourself.<P>My H just said to me last night that he felt he could give up our marriage, but can't and won't give up our friendship??? They do say things that keep us dangling don't they. You may have just gotten to the point where you're darn tired of being played with. My H is with ow#2...moved out 8 mos ago...has no intention of coming home...is adamant that he is not in love with me...but continues to want to keep that door open, just a bit, for his saftey net. Says things to me like he still feels a pull toward me and home. <P>How much bouncing back and forth is enough to harden our hearts a bit and start deciding for ourselves what the outcome will be? You, Starpony are approaching that stage in your story and I envy you a bit. I am starting to feel like everyone looks at me as this victim...like they wonder why I can't just get over it. Divorce is so common...why can some get through it ok, and some, like me, just feel like dying?<P>I told my H last night, once again, that I would not file for divorce. He has to do the "dirty work" if he wants it. I told him I do not want a divorce. He promises to not spring anything on me. Says when I am ready we'll sit down like adults and do it with sanity. I guess I should be greatful for that anyway, but we'll see how things really happen.<P>sorry to rant on your post...I just want some peace and want to accept what is happening here. Every time I get near the acceptance stage I look around at the families in my neighborhood...the dads and kids and moms and just die. I was a part of a family like that. We did everything together. I will never again plan a vacation for all of us. Never even attend our childrens events together. When we become grandparents we will show up at the hospital in seperate cars with possible new spouses. When our kids graduate we will go our seperate ways after the ceremonies.<P>Damn, now I'm depressing myself. Better stop before I open a vein (kidding!)<P>I come here sometimes just because the writing is such good therapy. Thanks for letting me get some of my sadness out of my head and on a computer screen today.<P>We are going to be ok you know.<P>allison

Starpony,<P>You sound like you have it together! I think everything gets down to how strong we get and I think that no matter what choice you make, you are going to be fine.<P>I think you should just keep going where your heart and head says you should and you will end up in the right place for you.<P>I'm just glad to hear you sounding so strong.<BR>Sometimes strength turns things around so be prepared for how you might handle that too.<P>By the way, still doing good here!<P>Lilly<P>

Hi *Pony!<P>Don't feel bad. I am not far behind you. It's been 18 months now, since DDay, & my H won't/can't break off the affair. To make matters worse, he won't move out, won't file for divorce, and won't stop snuggling with me at night-- although there is no sex. We have discussed divorce, but how does one file for divorce when they're living in the same house??<P>Actually, we have been getting along very, very well lately (of course OW was out of town for the holidays). H has been very attentive and considerate of me. We talk and laugh a lot together when he isn't working. We enjoy each other's company.<P>Then, once again, tonight I came home to a note saying he would be gone for 24 hours and he is "sorry for disappointing and distressing me". He even told me when to expect him back home. Like he is going out of town on a business trip!!!<P>Sometimes, I think he really is insane.<P>I guess the bottom line for you and me is that they aren't there for us. They cannot fill our needs. How long do we continue to put our lives on hold, and forgo our own happiness? As long as we cling to an empty relationship, we will never have a chance at happiness. Right??<P>I can sure relate to you about the hurting part. Every time H pulls one of his disappearing acts (to be with OW) it hurts me less and less. That kinda scares me because I fear that I'm becoming numb to all emotion.<P>Do what's best for you *Pony.

Starphony,, Dont know if you remember me,, but I am also an "oldtimer".. I want you to know that I agree with Lor 100%... Plan A is to let your spouse know that he can have a good marriage with you, and a nice home, that you can rebuild, and trust him again one day...... After you lay the plan A foundation,, its perfect for plan B... I plan A'd for about a month before I found my h talking with ow again. I then gradually went to a moderate plan B (I hadnt read SAA yet). My philosophy behind it was the same as Harley's.. I was not going to allow my h to get his needs met by both me and the ow.. I refused to be his friend while he was out of the house and living with ow (I booted him when I caught him the 2nd time). It absolutely killed my h not to have a part of me.. when he holds on to you both,, it will take a lot longer for him to make a decision,,because both of you are meeting his needs... He has the ow,,,and whatever that brings to his life, and he still has a part of you.. By being friends and staying in contact and an occasional "sleep over",, he keeps his options open.. He has the best of both worlds.... <BR>After I was doing a moderate plan B on my own, I had read SAA and I stepped did a full fledged plan B.... Within 2 weeks my h had terminated his lease with ow and was home. I even had changed my pager number so he would quit calling me on my pager.. It really through him for a loop.<P>After I got him home,,, then I had to go back to plan A,, because he was in major withdrawal... We had a few ups and downs,, he had a couple of contacts with her that we fought about... He still was crazy for a while,, but eventually after he was home for 6 months,, he finally was better..<P>He now has been home for 18 months and we have a very good marriage....Things are going well... I firmly believe in plan B, and if you cant do a full fledge B, then just dont be his friend, deal with the kids and any financial issues through as little one on one conversation as possible.. Use a note or phone messages or email... Be totally impersonal.. Show your strength to him!! Dont give in to him until he for sure ends it with her.......... Its hard because it feels like your letting go, and by not having contact with him it is scary... But remember this..... Its just as scary for him!!! If not scarier.... <P>Keep in touch.. Let us know how you are doing.....

Always nice to see current and old names on here!<P>az allison - Please, vent away! This place saved me from opening a vein many times. I like your last line - we will be OK you know. I used to(and sometimes still do) get the same sad feelings around other "happy" families, but they aren't always so happy you know? And now I often catch myself thinking - when I hear couple friends bickering between each other and acting out - "gee, glad I don't have to deal with that anymore!" Thank you for writing. I love reading your posts.<P>Lilly!! - Glad to hear your "by the way". And thanks for the vote of confidence. You are a gem.<P>Sidney - Your post made me sadder than many I have read lately. Only because I saw my own progression of feeling mirrored in it and I remember that pain so well. You can't stand it forever. Earlier this fall I started to get the same numbness you describe and then finally broke through with a huge burst of anger at H - my one lovebust really over the last 6 mos or so. I told him I was overwhelmed with single parenting and my high stress/visibility job, - when he protested he was doing everything he could I reminded him he was 300 miles away and there was really very little he could do day to day. When he told me how hard he had tried to come back to the marriage, I said don't tell me you f**ing tried. You never gave up OW for more than a month! I let loose and it felt good. I stopped being dead. Realized I do still have feelings, I just need to start listening to them. Don't confuse plan A with not listening to your feelings - it doesn't necessarily mean you have to act on them right away - but I have learned not to stuff mine anymore. I wish you all the best Sid.<P>Mickey65 - Of course I remember you. All of you "alums" are like old friends to me in a way because you were all there when I needed you so much. I think I will be moving on the path you describe. But not with any hope of it changing my H at this point, but because I need it. Thanks for your thoughts and so heartened to hear you are still doing well.

Dear Starpony:<P>It's been ages since I posted on GQ, or even lurked. I've been up all night catching up and reading posts and came across your thread. Something made me come here.<P>I shouldn't post when I haven't been sleeping and been up all night drinking coffee because I tend to get melancholy and weepy.<P>Your post sent me into a kind of 'mourning' for you. We share the same time line as far as discovery and though we have different outcomes, I could have easily been where you are today.<P>It's funny, but as I read your post and felt the waves of sadness, I also experienced a kind of 'relief' for you, that you are free to change your life and that you have made some important decisions. You have been through so much and have fought so hard for so long...you really have fought the good fight. You know deep in your heart you did everything humanly possible and you will never have to second guess yourself.<P>The rituals of step by step taking down and packing up your husband's belongings is an act of acceptance and new found independence. Knowing you did everything you could allows you to take that deep cleansing breath and start a new chapter.<P>While you would have preferred to have a very different outcome, I truly believe there is something wonderful waiting for you...and I can't wait to hear what it is.<P>I am having mixed emotions about all this right now. While I am teary eyed and saddened that it has come to this for you, I also feel excited for you and the possibilities that exist here. I am so very, very sorry and happy for you all at once. Not happy because your husband is gone, but because you have an opportunity to begin again knowing you did everything you could and you'll never go through life wondering if you did the right thing.<P>Who knows what 2001 will bring.<P>Warmest wishes and God speed<P>Catnip =^^= <p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited January 04, 2001).]

Meow....look what the cat brought in!!<P>Greetings catnip! Wonderful to see you check in here. So sorry if I caused you sadness or pain. Sometimes I now am almost relieved to just let the sadness wash over me, because I know it will not stay forever and I will come out of the melancholy that much more quickly. Because I too feel the "relief" that you describe - like some huge load has been lifted. Your words meant so much to me. I do know I have done everything I possibly could - thank for reminding me of that. Let me know how you are doing when you have the time.

I've been purrr-fectly psychotic, Starpony, but not because my recovery isn't going well, because it is. The stress I am experiencing is the fallout from the OC situation and all the crap that comes with it...it's all on the Pregnancy/OC board. Ugh.<P>I am so glad you check in now and then to update everyone on how you are and what is going on...I hope you'll continue to do this. I like to keep track of the ones special to me.<P>Bon voyage, Starpony, your journey begins.<P>Catnip =^^=

Starpony<BR>No advice here....just hugs.<BR>{{{{{{{{Starpony}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>You know what I wish for you. <P>One question though.....would a piece of paper bring closure? <BR>I wonder often about my choices. If I left my H and started a new life would the pain and memories go away? I don't believe they would. I guess I'm wondering if real closure exists. <P>Just wanted you to know I have been thinking of you and that I care very much.

Hi Wassi!<P>I was hoping you would show up. You ask the same question I have asked myself for the last 6 months and I am glad you asked it because it is making me think.<P> What would really be different if I were divorced? Wouldn't I still be hurting in the same way and have the same loneliness? How would my ability to work on me be improved at all? And i would lose what little connection to my H I have? How can this be positive?<P>I guess my realization recently is that I am not looking for divorce to provide closure. Closure is happening with or without a piece of paper. I have gotten more than halfway there on my own, and expect to continue on that path as my efforts (whether in plan a, b or some a/b)to hold on and make the marriage a safe place for H to return to continue to be unanswered. Remember, this is not a WS who has returned to the marriage, who is trying to work on things, maybe slips up occasionally, etc. He's been gone for over a year wassi. <P>Although this may be non-MB, I now see divorce as the final act of forgiving myself, forgiving H and validating me and my needs. I can only in good conscience file when I know I truly understand and regret my part in causing the marriage to fail and accept and forgive myself for it. Which I can only do when I have done my best to address those failings and improve myself. I have done this. <P>I also forgive H, which I really didn't for a long time. As long as I kept expecting him to show remorse, ask forgiveness, try to return to the marriage because it was the right thing to do and because I felt we deserved a chance, I was not really accepting and forgiving his humanity and human failings and his right to his own needs and own choices about his life. I wanted amends, I wanted him to behave in a certain way because of the promises he had made to me. Well guess what? He isn't . I have never wanted to divorce as an angry and bitter woman, and getting to this level of acceptance I can finally avoid this.<P>Finally, I will give you that divorce will not take away the loving feelings I have for H. But I expect to always have those to some extent. We share two wonderful children. He is trying to be in their lives in the best way he can manage and he is sincere in this. But by deciding to divorce i am saying that I have other needs beyond just seeing him as a loving parent from afar. And that is OK. My needs matter too. I would never recommend divorce as a first response to an affair, but once one has gone through the self-growth, the sincere efforts to repair the marriage and these do not result in a spouse who is willing to return, well, divorce can - if not provide closure, at least help keep moving you on the path to healing. <P>Just my humble opinion. Anyone who cares to show me the other side of this is welcome. Sounds a lot more assured than I actually feel. <P>But thanks for getting me thinking wassi - this is a good place for me to test drive these new feelings and beliefs before I act. <BR>Hugs to you, and I hope you are well.<P>Starpony<p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited January 05, 2001).]

Starpony (and sidney too),<P>Plan B time!<P>Do it for yourself, and for the good of your marriage.<P>It's good to hear from you both, although I wish the marriage news was better...

My friend <BR>You are so much farther in the healing process than I am. You sound wonderful.<P>The solution to this does not depend upon our H's. Being together does not provide the answers, the healing. Neither does being apart...or divorce.<P>The solution... is finding the peace within ourselves. The trust that no matter what...we will go on.<P>I think that you have found true acceptance with your forgiveness. Now you must look at what is right for you. I don't think that divorce would be an ending for you. Just a different step along the way to growth?<P>After all this time I find that I am less sure than I ever was of what I want. Too many D-days. Maybe my situation is closer to yours than it appears. Do I really want to wake up two years from now and find that the secrets and lies continue?<P>What do we really want/need? <BR>I'm full of questions aren't I? You got me thinking too my friend. <BR>Take care!!!

Starpony,<P>I have had always thought I would be ready to call it quits when I knew I could look my God, my OS & my MIL in the eye & say I tried. I was at that point last May when the job offer to Singapore came up, I thought this was God's answer to my prayers but so far it has been anything but. I always knew it might just be for 1 school yr. My WS would bail now but for the damage it would do the boys. Do I have regrets, some but if I had not originally chosen this path I would be sitting at my desk wondering what might had been. I gave up security to do this, the future maybe harder or scarier because of this but I know that I tried, maybe not as hard or as well as I could but I did. I will still be able at the end of the term in June, look my God, my OS, my MIL in the eye & say I think I did all I could. I will be able to have closure, not sure without bitterness but with mostly peace I hope. I feel from what you write you maybe there. I hope & pray whatever you do that you find peace & happiness you deserve it.