I've just got to say it I think much gets misunderstood about Plan A and LBing on this board in the last several months. I'm not picking on you personally Mc Broon,(please don't feel offended)but as a poster who's been here over a year and a had an extremely successful recovery, the "idea" floating around that Plan A means no LBing at the expense of shoving down one's true feelings and the need to express those feelings, troubles me greatly.Personal honesty (done in a loving and caring manner) and preserving personal and marital integrity is of the utmost importance.I so agree with Survivor that you can state the obvious "I can't and won't stop you from going". That's the true bottom line, but then you must be honest about how you feel about it and the consequences such behavior on her part will have on your feelings for her and your marriage. I think "most" people would feel inside that they wouldn't be able to tolerate such flaunting and disrespect of having a WS going away for a "fog laden" vacation. You can honestly tell you spouse how that makes you feel and the effect it has on your feelings for her and your marriage without it being a LB. The truth hurts, our WS need to hear SOMEONE speaking the truth and we can convey the truth of our feelings and reactions to our WS's without it being a LB, it's all in HOW you go about it.Plan A is not about "don't pi$$ off your mate at any expense".......it's about being a better you and sometimes being a better us means we have to set clear boundaries about how much pain we can and cannot tolerate in our own lives and marriages and be clear about what our limits are. Laying it all out there for our WS probably makes them angry( even if done lovingly, because it is the truth they don't want to hear) and even more likely doesn't have an ounce of effect on their behavior in a situation like your WS going away for a vacation, but it ultimately gives them a lot to think about when they have to start to choose which life they ultimately want. I know I'm gonna get flamed!!! Flame retardent gear on!<p>[This message has been edited by mthrrhbard (edited January 04, 2001).]

Mthrhbard, no flame from me. I think that your comments are well stated.

Mthrrhbrad--I couldn't agree more. Setting and sticking to those boundaries is difficult, though.....

Yes, I know how hard it is. More than hard it is darned SCARY. <P>Now that H and I have enjoyed a good long year of incredible recovery and the hurt and pain are dulled, I feel like it's so much easier to see these affair situations with the eye of a seasoned outside observer. It's much easier to be objective when the pain and urgency to fix things are gone. I have noticed a common thread among many/most of the recovery stories I have seen here in the last year on MBer's.The common thread, that I have noticed, is that the BS absolutely would not agree to be part of a marriage where there was an ongoing, in your face affair with the WS/BS living in the same home while the affair is ongoing, with exception to a period of about 6-8 weeks following discovery.<P>I see so much anguish here on these boards lately. As someone who has a marriage that is fully recovered due in part to MBers( the truth is that God is the only Being that saved my marriage)I feel deeply sorrowful for those hurting so badly.Honestly, it discourages me to the point where I rarely post anymore. I feel badly for feeling that way sometimes, as I feel my H and I are truly one of the successes here at MBers and my desire is to always hold out hope to those struggling with the devistation an affair brings.<P>I think much is misunderstood about Plan A. I do not believe that it was ever meant to continue for very long when you have a WS that is blantantly disrespectful and has no regard for anyone but themselves.In reality there are consequences to bad behavior,an affair is no exception. I do not believe that BS should ever lighten or prevent or save WS from having to deal with the reality of the consequences their bad behavior brings. I think that that causes prolonged and increased agony. I do not believe it is unreasonable for a BS to say "enough is enough,you can't have us both,you must chose. I'm sorry for how I contributed to the demise of the marriage, I am changing and I love you and want to work things out" and go to Plan B,even if it is a modified PlanB, as I understand how difficult it is to strictly do Plan B when children are involved. You can Plan B,relate to WS regarding your joint interest in your children and commit to parenting together and remove yourself(emotionally and physically) from the pain of the marital relationship.Yes, it takes guts and it's hard and it's scary, but what you gain is a stronger self and a self that has it's integrity and esteem intact. You gain a stronger self that is surely able to deal with whatever outcome the affair has on the marriage, whether that be the struggle of dealing with recovery issues or the struggle of dealing with the end of the marriage.<P>

Mmmmmmm, am thinking carefully about what I will do upon her return. She's back v.late Sat night.<P>This post has been the most useful yet, some VERY hard hitting words, and greatly appreciated.<P>Reading & thinking about this, and what my friends have said, I'm on the verge of telling her she must give one of us up, albeit perhaps temporarily.<P>At the moment she is taking the P**S, frankly. I'm ripped up, looking after two kids, 4 & 15m, and she's enjoying her hols. With Him.<P>mthrrhbard -- I think I've been so scared of losing her that I've agreed on this because to say no would have forced an issue - i guess I'm scaed of the outcome.<P>I think I will do a letter for her to read when she comes back. I know I can't go on much longer with the OM in the picture, it's not only painful, I feel i deserve more respect. This isn't a game. She's had an affair, it's quite possible our marriage is over, and so she needs to start & think, and quick. <P>But then......there are many stories of Plan A being implemented while the A was going on.<P>What i find a little frustrating i guess is that all the advice makes sense, but how do you know what will work best?<P>I'm trying to show my support by staying, not LBing and Plan Aing, and I felt going would make her think i didn't want to make it up. What a dilemma.<P>I feel like i want to do something to make her stop this "in my face" approach, but she says she can't stop seeing him because she's in love.<P>In the words of the Clash - "Should I Stay or Should I Go". I'm going to write the letter 2nite, and post it here for comments - I'll post it as a new post. I want 2 b firm, and honest, but i don't want to Lovebust. Please try to reply by tomorrow dinnertime UK time, so i have a chance to include any changes I feel are warrented after your thoughts on it. I'll use the advice given in this thread as a basis, as they are ringing true in my own foggy brain.<P>Thanks - I know i wouldn't still be here if it weren't for the site. My two girls thank you too, they've had loads of quality time with me since all this ( I got a sick note for work to help us have time to talk, but she's used the oppotunity to be with him, another bone of contention). Should get the letter posted in about 22.00 UK time, which is about 6 hours from now - what time will that be USA?

McBroon:<P>There have been some very good points made about Plan A here---it's not a blessing to let your spouse do anything without letting them know how it makes you feel. In fact, that's a violation of the "Four Rules"---complete honesty is a very big part of the MarriageBuilder's philosophy, even in Plan A.<P>You need to be honest with your wife about how you feel. Without demands. Without disrespect. Without anger. I "Planned A" through nearly 6 months of my wife's affair, and she made several trips to the OM. I let her know that I didn't approve of "sharing" her. That these trips upset me, and were hurting the love I had for her. I successfully negotiated (through the POJA) keeping the children from these trips of hers. It can be done---but you need to do it in the right way. I think that overall, you're really doing an excellent job with this---but you need to remind your wife that you don't approve, when it's appropriate.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Reading & thinking about this, and what my friends have said, I'm on the verge of telling her she must give one of us up, albeit perhaps temporarily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Worded as this, that it a lovebuster. It's a demand. A really common one, that often leaves you where you're not prepared to be, in worse shape that you are.<P>Asking her to do this, is a more respectful tactic. Negotiating an end to the affair would be something that you can do without lovebusting. The only way that you want to make a "him or me" play is if you're ready for Plan B. And if you are ready with Plan B, then you execute Plan B in a different way---it's focus is not a choice between two people, but rather a way for you to isolate yourself from your spouse's poor marital behavior in an attempt to save your love for them.<P>You do Plan B as a letter. The first time you execute Plan B, you should probably expect the "I'll end the affair if you stay... response". You should then immeditately negotiate the terms you'll need to stay: including "no contact" (letter too), counseling, accountability, etc. You should also respectfully let your spouse know that should any of these terms be "violated" during the recovery, that it will be doubly hard on you (it will), and that you'll probably be forced into a separation UNTIL they can demonstrate that they're ready. I say this because I did Plan A, Plan B "threat", a short pseudo-recovery, followed by rediscovery. That hurt, and I went into Plan B for real with no room for negotiation.<P>While I agree that your wife needs a wake-up call, I think that you'll be unable to deliver it at this point. Unfortunately, she's going to have to wake herself up (in all likelyhood). When that happens, it won't be pretty. You want to have established a consistant track record of loving, respectful behavior for her to see when she realizes what a disaster the affair really is.<BR>

As far as your letter goes, I would not send anything to her unless you're ready for Plan B. I can't imagine that you are yet (how long have you been in Plan A?). Plan B shouldn't be a "response" to something that happens---you need to carefully plan it out, and have your support network in place. And as Steve Harley told me, no matter how ready and prepared you think you are for a separation, you're not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by McBroon:<BR><B>Mmmmmmm, am thinking carefully about what I will do upon her return. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have the great good fortune of having K weigh in at length on your situation. I would follow his advice blindly to the T. He was instrumental in helping my marriage.<P>If the purpose of condoning this trip was to have her assess her situation, than it seems counterintuitive to hand her a letter upon her return. Hear her out.<P>Do what K says. And get in counseling with Steve Harley. <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 05, 2001).]

McBroon,<P>Just to clarify things, so that there isn't any confusion here. Regarding the letter that I suggested...it wasn't to suggest a Plan B letter.<P>It was only to let her know how you feel about her going away with the OM, and your feelings for her. That was all.<P>Right now, I don't think it would be a good idea to give her an ultimatum unless you are ready for Plan B. In my opinion, I think that Plan B is still too early for you. Only move to Plan B when you are at the point of losing love for your W. I'm sure that you aren't at that point yet.<P>Keep us updated on what you plan to do! Stay strong! Overall, and so far, I think that you are handling yourself well, considering the ugly circumstances.

She didn't come home.<P>I didn't do letter.<P>She has sent me a message 2 say I have to pick her up on the way to my mums to get the kids.<P>Am going to have to tell her somethings got to give here.<P>After reading posts again, and thinking, I can't let her do this to me. I dodn't deserve it, regardless of the past.<P>I'm going to ask her to concentrate on the marriage, and try to find out about OUR future (rather than hers with him), and if she can't do this for the sake of ourselves 7 the kids, then I can't stand by while she lets it all go.<P>I've tried to be nice about this, but carrying on with three people in the marriage isn't going to solve any problems.<P>Any words of advice on this course of action? It seems to be the general consensus that after the 6-8 weeks of knowing about it, that the afair has to stop to give the marriage a chance of recovery.<P>I can't take all this I'm afraid. Thought I could, but I'm just breaking down all the time, my friends are worried about me, and i need to make a stand.<P>The fog thing is all well & good, but I'm being crapped on from a very great hight here, and whilst i agree there are shortcomings in our relationship, this should not be happening. Sorry I didn't do the letter, I'm going to tell her she needs to choose.

Sorry folks -- I've got a crap browser which seems to miss off some of the later posts.<P>Ok, I'll hang in there. K (and everyone) -- thanks v much for your insight. <P>I'm just fed up.<P>K, I've only been in Plan a for 3 weeks. It seems like a lifetime.<P>I will do as you say, tell her how much this is hurting, that sharing her is very hard 4 me, and that I hope she'll try to think about us & what we have.<P>I'll keep things as they are. I'm not ready to be away from her yet, as you say K, the reality will be far worse than i imagine i would think. The reason i know I'm not ready is that if i went, I would be back like a shot if she asked.<P>I won't be disrespectful & will carry on showing love & kindness - even with an almighty hangover (out with good friends last night).<P>Will keep you posted. I appreciate your help.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McBroon:<BR><B>Am going to have to tell her somethings got to give here.</B><P>Well, something does have to give, that is the reality, I'm not sure if it needs to be verbalized.<P>If I were you, I would do a lot of listening when you see her. The trip was supposed to be for her decisionmaking, right? Whatever she says, I would try not to react too much immediately. <P>Best wishes. I'll be thinking about you.<P>Mike

McBroon,<P>I'm really worried about you. I don't want you to become a doormat. I don't think that Plan A was devised at the expense of your self-worth & self-esteem.<P>If you haven't made a call to Dr.H yet, maybe it would be a good idea to give that call.<P>p.s. I have to be blunt here...protect yourself if you are intimate with your wife, unless she gets tested or unless you use some kind of protection...Sorry, but I thought that I should throw that in.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by McBroon:<BR>Am going to have to tell her somethings got to give here.</B><P>Well, something does have to give, that is the reality, I'm not sure if it needs to be verbalized.<P>If I were you, I would do a lot of listening when you see her. The trip was supposed to be for her decisionmaking, right? Whatever she says, I would try not to react too much immediately. <P>Think about how you want to react to each of the secenarios -- leave with the OM, stay with you, still undecided.<P>I think that for the first one you should simply say that you love her and you won't do anything to facilitate the breakup, so she'll have to move out and file, etc. Hopefully, that isn't the scenario.<P>If she says she is still undecided, then you have to think about how much longer you can Plan A, and if you want to at least ask for some rules on her behavior to mitigate your pain. K may be helpful there.<P>If she wants to reconcile with you, you will want to think about no contact conditions, rebuilding your trust, and the like.<P>Anyway, I would try not to jump right into any life decisions. Hear her out and fall back and think. <P>Best wishes. I'll be thinking about you.<P>Mike<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

The fact that your wife took off to spend a few days with the OM to see if there is a future with him should be regarded by you as a death knell to your marriage. What she has done is completely void of respect for you and her marriage. Even if she comes back and says that the the other man did not measure up to you how long do you think it will take before some OM may look to be a better prospect and she decides to try him on for size. In my opinion your wife should return to is changed locks and application for divorce.

Ok. Have thought some more.<P>Talked yesterday about how the trip went. She says she is no further forward. Can't stop seeing him, still feels loads for him. She says she just doesn't know what she wants.<P>I didn't do the letter, I want to see what she's like now she's back. It's always the same, she's all hard & bolshy when she's bee with him, then she usually comes back down to reality.<P>Feel like I want to plan A for a bit longer, but maybe try & set some rules. Any advice K - Mike thought you might.<P>Last night was strange. I've told her that her carrying on with the affair is killing me, and maybe damaging the love I still have for her (it really is), and that I can't see how she can discover what her feelings for us are while she's continuing with the affair. She can't & won't give him up.<P>Last night, he sent her a text message on her mobile, so she got out of bed and spent an hour talking to him downstairs. Then in the middle of the night i felt her stroking my hand - I don't know what the hell is going on.<P>Am keeping to Plan A - Max - Whilst this is how my heart is reacting, my Head is asking me what is to be gained right now. See me previous posts on this thread as to the reasons why I'm still here - two little girls who need their Dad are two very good reasons for a start. Plus, we have the latest series of Frasier on over here at the monet, and last night Frasier made one of his usual speaches - this was about Love. He said - "The truth is we don't choose love, it chooses us"<P>I'm not sure if i still love her or if she still loves me, or indeed what kind of love she feels for OM. But until one of us is sure I'm going to try and get through this with her not without her.<P>So, rules for Plan A whilst A is still going on.?<BR>Letter?<P>Will read thread again & make some decisions and wait for ideas on above. I'm not going to force her hand. I don't want to force my own yet either. Bear with us, we'll get to the right decision eventually - isn't that the ultimate goal?<P>Thanks folks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McBroon:<BR><B>Talked yesterday about how the trip went. She says she is no further forward. Can't stop seeing him, still feels loads for him. She says she just doesn't know what she wants.</B><P>Well, this is not the worst response you could have gotten. <P>I applaud your commitment to hanging in there while you can. The line here for deciding to go to Plan B, I believe, is where you have to save your love for her. Popping in and out of your bed to talk to the OM has got to be an enormous drain on your lovebank.<P>If you decide to hang in there, I would try to ask her discretion so these daggers aren't hitting your heart in your home and in your bed. Ask her to have some discretion and consideration about her communication. <P>You may want to talk to your doc about anti-deps, Harley recommends that in your situation. Plan A away as much as you can, but think about Plan B....I think that what I have seen here a few times, especially with children involved, is that the betrayed spouse hangs in there due to logistics or finances or family commitment, and then one day awakes to find that the lovebank is irrevocably drained forever from the day to day anguish of sharing a spouse. <P>Harley also says that you have to watch out for the wayward spouse becoming comfortable in the limbo of the two relationships. That is when Plan B must be effected.<P>If I were you, I would be talking to Steve Harley ASAP, and talking to your doctor about some help in maintaining your moods.<P>Hang in there,<P>Mike <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Feel like I want to plan A for a bit longer, but maybe try & set some rules. Any advice K - Mike thought you might.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, but it sounds like you're doing the best you can at it. You want to try to negotiate out the most "lovebusting" of her behaviors, trying to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement in negotiations with her. For example, try to get her to agree to no phone calls or computer chats or IM while you're in the house. Even if that means that she sets a schedule to "communciate" with the OM (my wife used to do that 5 minutes after I left for work)---hey, it's better than getting your face rubbed in it.<P>I would also do your best to negotiate out her visits to him. Those are killers---I remember them well. And attempt to negotiate the "reminders", like the braclet that I think you mentioned. Just explain to your wife evenly that these things really damage your love for her, and your ability to cope with the situation.<P>You might also try to negotiate an end (perhaps "temporary") to the affair---say a 90 day moratorium on contacting the OM. I think there's no chance in hell that you'll get this, but if you bring it up respectfully (and early) in your negotiation session with her, some of your other issues might seem more reasonable.<P>You should be on antidepressants, and in counseling with a counselor who will support these decisions. I highly recommend that you look into the phone counseling with Steve Harley as well, although I'm not sure how it works with overseas calls. He keeps such riduculously long hours that he certainly should be able to fit you in---and I think they work in the overseas tolls into the fees somehow, to make it affordable.<P>McBroon: I want to let you know that I've been in exactly this situation. There are going to be a lot of well-intentioned people (like Max, for example) who are going to tell you to lock her out, divorce her, etc. I'm telling you that your wife is currently "fence sitting". Like an addict, she realizes that what she's doing is wrong, but she's relatively powerless to stop it. Your goal is to get in at least 3 months of consistant plan A---eliminating lovebusters, showing hope for new marital behavior, and trying to respectfully end this affair. After that period, you will need to bail and enter a Plan B (no contact) separation---because Plan A is awfully tough while this crap is going on.<P>But this isn't the "death knell" for your marriage. It boils down to these simple facts: your wife still probably cares for you, but she's not "in love" with you. She's "in love" with the OM. Affairs don't last---especially when reality sets in. You have a history with your wife, and you are the father of her children. The love that you lack in your marriage can be created.<P>You have to hang on. In the best case, she'll wake up during Plan A and she'll end the affair and start into recovery. But you should be equally prepared to put in 3-6 months of Plan A time demonstrating your committment for the marriage, and your ability to change YOUR behavior to benefit the marriage. As she continues the affair, you'll think that you're having no effect. I'm telling you that you are---but it may take a separation and the devestating end of the affair for her to realize this.<P>And then you'll be happy that you followed this plan. It may take a year. Or even two. But any other suggestion (like divorce) doesn't take into account that YOU still love your wife, that AFFAIRS don't last, and that SHE can fall back in love with you. This is an investment in your marriage and your family---it's not pain-free, but none of your choices are at this point.<P>Keep the faith.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by max:<BR><B>The fact that your wife took off to spend a few days with the OM to see if there is a future with him should be regarded by you as a death knell to your marriage. What she has done is completely void of respect for you and her marriage. Even if she comes back and says that the the other man did not measure up to you how long do you think it will take before some OM may look to be a better prospect and she decides to try him on for size. In my opinion your wife should return to is changed locks and application for divorce.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with max, and I know that I will probably get flamed for what I am about to write, especially by certain people here, and I know that this is marriage builders, but it will never cease to amaze me how much SH** people will take, all in the name of saving a "marriage." I really have to wonder if saving a marriage is the <B>real</B> reason why so many people here put up with the SH** that they do. It seems to me that fear, the fear of being alone, the fear that no one else will want them, the fear of change, is the real reason why people allow themselves to be disrespected, run over, treated as less than human, and then disguise it as the WS being in a "fog", or that their "religion" hates divorce or some other "justification" for being a doormat, and yes I mean being a doormat.<P>Like everyone else here, I do believe in the institution of marriage, I also believe that great efforts should be made to repair and maintain marriages, but like everything else in life, there are limits. How someone can put up with a spouse openly carrying on an affair, with things such as going on trips with the OP to decide who they want more, getting up out of the bed to talk with OP, amazes me, but what amazes me more is that people encouraging to take more of this abuse, all in the name of saving a marriage. I understand the concept of negotiating and the POJA, but negotiating the end of affairs, negotiating how often a spouse can contact an OP, negotiating what time of day a spouse can contact the OP is truly amazing to me, why not negotiate the frequency and type of sex the spouse can have with the OP????????<P>Believe it or not people, but there are times when a marriage is over, there are times that the damage done is irrepairable, sometimes your self respect means more than being abused for the "sake" of children, vows, or "doing the right thing." Sometimes the relationships here that are being called marriages are not marriages at all.<P>Now that I have said all of that..........<B>FLAME AWAY</B><P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited January 09, 2001).]

Oh FA: you're here to annoy again... <P>The bottom line is that there IS a time to call it quits in a marriage. But that time is when YOU no longer have any love left for your spouse, and your spouse is unwilling to attempt to change their behavior to build love in the marriage.<P>In McBroon's case, he's not out of love with his wife. He's not ready for divorce. So, what the heck would you have him do?? He doesn't want divorce---and there are hundreds of cases worse than this in which the marriage is not only saved, but made much better.<P>And his wife is very early in an affair---statistically speaking, it's likely that this incredibly selfish, undeniably "UNMARRIAGE-LIKE BEHAVIOR" can and will change. Affairs don't typically last long after discovery. Do you feel his wife is being maliciously evil in extracting the most amount of pain from him? It's pretty unlikely. It's more likely that she's got herself into an incredibly conflicted situation and she doesn't have a clue what to do. <P>This is the MarriageBuilder's website, FA. You can feel free to disagree with this, but I don't see you offering ANY useful solution, except to support "file for divorce and change the locks". <P>You state:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>there are times when a marriage is over, there are times that the damage done is irrepairable, sometimes your self respect means more than being abused for the "sake" of children, vows, or doing the right thing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This isn't a time where the marriage is over (according to McBroon), and the damage is certainly not irrepairable. You point out that your self-respect is more important than doing the "right thing" for the sake of "the children"---that may be fine for YOU, but its not what McBroon has expressed.<P>If you don't have the intestinal foritude for Plan A and Plan B---fine. But then get lost---and go post on a divorce board somewhere. Or offer a constructive solution. You're not doing much of a service here.