[My subject should have said "WS" instead of "OM" but it is not editable. Sorry.]<BR>----<BR>Back in October I posted a message in the Emotional Needs area (search for user "Ivory" if you wish). I was the WS (I was to find out that it was a little unusual for an WS to participate in these forums). At the time I was not willing to break off the A but I was hoping to get some insights into my behavior as well as why I was unable to receive my wife's love.<P>I thought I'd write about where things are now and would welcome any comments anyone might have.<P>The OW and I have tried to break off this A several times, unsuccessfully. There definitely is a love relationship there, however rooted in "un"reality it might be. (I apparently don't fit the mold, in that for men most affairs are supposedly rooted in sex, whereas with me it is rooted in the emotional side). However, the change in my mood was such that there was definitely a strain on the marriage--- something my wife was patiently waiting on to improve--- and something was going to have to give soon. This development crystallized everything, of course. <P>The OW informed me today that her husband has learned of the affair (he is a police detective; supposedly he used his authority to get local-exchange phone records) and confronted her about it. He threatened to contact my wife and also the church where I work on weekends as part of the music staff. (I do regret the sullying of the Lord's work this has caused.) <P>However, she struck a "deal" with him, that if he would not contact me, my wife or the church she would agree to move join him in the new town about 3 hours from here where he moved recently for a new job. This was something she previously had been unwilling to do. They have had a loveless marriage for 13 out of the 13 years they have been married and on many occasions she has expressed to him her desire to end it. She had told him flatly that she would not move to the new town. When he first confronted her about the affair, in fact, he asked her if she was willing to work on the marriage and she said "No."<P>So in essence she has traded her life for mine. Say what you wish, but that is a great expression of love in my book. I don't feel that I can let her do this. I could go on with my life while she basically would merely exist (she has had ulcers from this marriage in previous times). And surely her husband would eventually admit to himself that he didn't have a wife--he had a hostage. His previous promises likely would seem pretty hollow at that point. And if she couldn't take it any longer, and left, in his anger he might do anyway that which he has promised her he wouldn't do.<P>I believe that I cann "disarm" this man by first being honest with my wife (one of Hartley's steps anyway) and trying to rebuild the marriage, plus also ending my affiliation with the church, leaving him with no cards to play. She then could proceed along whatever course she wished for her life. In that I am still emotionally attached to her, this is a final act of love I can show her, to free her from the bondage he proposes.<P>There is more I could say about all of this, but I'll stop for now and invite any comments any of you might have on this situation.<P>Ivory<p>[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 03, 2001).]

I guess I have nothing really valuable to say--I rarely post anymore, I am out of practice. But I have to commend you for turning things around and thinking selflessly. You are setting a goal to rebuild your marriage. I hope that it goes well for you and that you can establish trust and love between you and your wife, and that you can find a connection with her that you found with your lover. It will be difficult and take a lot of work.<P>Don't abandon your church, however. It would be the right thing to do to leave your calling behind, but don't stop attending. This is going to be when you need God the most. You need to find build faith inside of yourself; you have to use prayer and talk to God as a father to help guide you in your search of strength to leave the affair behind and begin a new life with your wife.<P>The best of luck to you--Mary

Ivory,<BR>I read your posts from Oct. and I really am not sure what to say. I don't really want to pick your post apart but I will say that there are many things that you said that, to me, sound as if they are not based on reality. I suggest you save your post, and a year from now look back on it.<P>You seem to have a slight understanding of the MBs principles, and, I guess a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Please understand this is not intended as an attack, but there are many people involved in your situation. You seem to look at this entirely through the point of view of self-centeredness - your romanticized comments about a "final act of love" notwithstanding. You fail to even mention, in any of your posts, if their are children involved in either marriage, or if you have any understanding of the horrendous pain OWs H, and your own W are going through, or will go through. I feel you are about to have a rude awakening. We here at MBs speak of the "fog", and it can get very thick.<P>Since you say you are ready to work on your marriage, and have come here asking for comments - then I suggest you do it. Get started with a good counselor, get honest with your W and start trying to make up for what you've done. Sorry, but you've expressed very little remorse, and I think you're likely to need help breaking through the denial. Also cut all contact with OW. Oh, and as far as any "deal" OWs H made with her - foget about it. He is liable to call your W at any time - especially after he gets through the shock, and feels a little more comfortable that his W is back with him.<P>So, I don't know Ivory. From your post I can't really get a feel if you really want to rebuild with your W, but I know that feelings are just feelings, and they can change. In your earlier post you were at a loss as to why you couldn't "receive" love from your W despite the fact that she was trying. Maybe some day Ivory, you'll come to understand that love is not a "feeling", something we receive. It is a choice - something we give, unconditionaly, to another. <BR>Good luck, if you decide to get honest, and work on your marriage, then I, and many other people will be more than willing to offer support. <BR>Dave

I'll be brief. If you want to save you marriage at all, there must be absolutely NO CONTACT between you and the OW from this point on. My H also tried unsuccessfully to end the A several times. One book, "Torn Asunder," stated that this usually serves only to intensify the attraction. Only after he confided in me, told her he wanted to stay with me, and ended all contact (contact at work was minimal, until she found another job), was he able to move on.<P>My H was also in the ministry. He resigned a few weeks before he told me about the A, but is still active in leadership at the church (no one else knows). <P>Good luck. I'll have to admit, it sounds to me like you are definitely in "the fog."<P>------------------<BR>"Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13:7

Dave, thanks for taking the time to reply, but I don't understand the warning that OW's H could call at any time. You must not have read the part where I will neutralize his "deal" by removing the only card he has to play. That's one of the reason's for my admitting this A to my wife, is it not? After that, he's welcome to call if he chooses to--there's nothing he could say that won't already be known. <P>I understand that love is a choice. That's the point. If I acted on "love" feelings alone, I'd be trying to build a relationship with OW. As it is I am acting on the intellect that what I 'feel" likely is not real, and that what I once enjoyed with my wife I can enjoy again. I don't "feel" that way, but I am expecting that to change if we both do the work. Harley, in fact, guarantees it will, which is a pretty bold statement, and others here have experienced that. So I am hoping that it will be what everyone says it will be, IF we both do the work (as I said). Especially me.<P>Dave, your phrase "if you decide to get honest" was particularly offensive. What about me seems dishonest? Confused, perhaps, but dishonest? I am confessing everything to my wife, I am resigning a position, I am opening up here in the forum, I am stopping seeing OW...help me out here---this is about as honest as I know how to get right now, and how you would know the deeper depths of my heart in this case, to infer dishonesty, puzzles me.<P>I never said anything about continuing contact with OW, so I also don't understand the warnings about that that sound as if I planned anything else. I have read all of that information here and I understand the need not to contact her (and her me) and that will be part of the committment made to my wife.<P>Of course there is remorse. Remorse over the price my wife will pay and our friends will pay. And more than that, even. (I don't claim any right to remorseful feelings about my own situation. I made this bed and that I have to lie in it is my own doing.) My wife is a wonderful woman and she doesn't deserve this. Even with working on rebuilding the marriage--if she's willing, and I think she will be--things never will be the same. Yes, perhaps they'll be better than ever eventually, but for awhile they will be awful for everybody, and I am very sorry indeed for that.<P>This reply is defensive-sounding, and I'm sorry that it is. But certain things were said that seem contrary to how I really feel, or think I feel. I'm trying to do the right thing here. I do appreciate it that some have taken the time to add their comments. I am not looking for praise or justification--I haven't done anything worthy of that.<P>ivory

Ivory,<P>I think why people reacted the way they did was because in your first post it is not real clear if you are truely willing to work on your marriage or if you have a hope that your "final act of love" to free your OW from " bondage" to her H wont allow her to see what a wonderful guy you are and make the decision to end her marriage to be with you. Somehow I have the feeling that if she said that , then all your plans of working on the marriage would be out the window.<P>I appologige if I am wrong, and your second post seems to say you were willing to do what it took for your marrige, so perhaps I am. But look into your heart and see what is there.<BR>Lora

Ivory:<P>Thanks for posting and for inviting comments. I can appreciate that it sometimes is risky for WSs to post on here, particularly when they feel about their A as you do.<P>Just for background, I'll let you know that I'm also a WS. Two-year EA followed by a one-night PA. After the affair went physical, I told my W, broke off contact with the other woman, and my W and I have been in "recovery" for about six months. It continues to be hard, with moments of despair for both of us. But it IS better, and I'm hopeful that it will continue to get better.<P>Please recall that you asked for comments, and that I know where you're coming from?<P>One thing I've occasionally heard from WSs on this board, and it's almost always an indication of trouble, is that they're "different" from the run of the mill cheater somehow -- they REALLY loved their wife, or the affair wasn't REALLY about sex, etc. <P>Here's a clue. Of course the particulars of everyone's story are different, but most fall into fairly broad categories. In many important ways, you're just like everyone else here, no better, no worse, and not even that special. <P>First, you're just flat wrong if you think that "for most men," affairs are just about sex. Take a few hours and read through some of the thousands of posts on this site, by betrayed and betrayers alike. I think that it's a rare affair that was solely about sexual pleasure. Whether it was a response to a mid-life crisis, sorting through feelings of inadequacy, indulging a desire to feel desired, satisfying needs that weren't being met by a spouse, or anything else, affairs seem to be almost entirely driven by emotional issues and/or emotional connection, rather than by sexual drive. Not all EAs are PAs, but virtually all PAs seem to be EAs as well, at least judging from the folks who visit here.<P>Next, trying further to distance yourself from other betrayers, you insist that "there definitely is a love relationship there," even though you acknowledge that it "might" be rooted in "'un' reality". Maybe you should re-think what you mean by "love"? Sure, you can have an exciting, intense, stimulating relationship with someone -- you could share thoughts, hopes, feelings, fluids, etc. And maybe all that counted as "love" when you were sixteen. But for adults, Ivory, mature love is ALSO about committment, and permanence, and stability, and being a stand-up guy when it counts, which is precisely when you don't want to, you know?<P>Take a step back, okay? You're married, and you've been seeing a married woman. Although she's been stuck in a loveless marriage for thirteen years (and, by the way, that's a classic WS line -- "oh don't worry, the marriage has been "over" for years"), and although you have what you say is a "love relationship" with her, neither of you has had the guts to leave your spouse to be with the other. In fact, she's willing to END it with you to go be with her husband. THIS is love? Or committment? Or anything?<P>You try to make all this sound better by hyping it as tragedy -- "she's traded her life for mine," etc. This isn't "Bridges of Madison County," is it? I'm not sure, if she's so unhappy in her marriage and you're so unhappy in YOURS, why either of you is going to such trouble to preserve them both? Just consider for a moment that a relationship with you seemed just fine as long as it was secret, but that she wouldn't want anyone else to know about it, cuz it's a little sleazy?<P>Ivory, this ultimately isn't a call about whether you or your lover should sacrifice yourself for the other. It's about whether you want to stay with your wife or you don't. If you do, your course of action should be clear -- you need to come clean with your W, try to address whatever issues have been blocking you from intimacy with her, and leave the OW behind. The OW's an adult. She can make her own choices, and can ALREADY "proceed along whatever course she wishes for life." If she's so unhappy with her H she should leave him, but that's none of your business or concern.<P>Your first step should be to try to figure out why the hell you've been doing this. I couldn't get a sense, either from this post or your earlier one, precisely what the problem is between you and your wife. You stated in October that you "didn't accept" her attempt to meet your ENs. I don't know what that means. She's nice to you and you don't respond? She does nice things for you and you don't care? <P>Your prior post was very distanced and detached -- lots of tortuous logic and numbered paragraphs, odd for someone who describes himself as primarily emotional and creative. I'm not certain you even KNOW what your emotional needs are, to be honest. You never named ONE that was important to you. Certainly I don't know what they are. But I do get the sense that you don't feel validated by your W, that you're threatened by her success, that you don't feel that you're the most important man in her life (that her father is), you feel emasculated, hen-pecked, etc. These, believe it or not, are not completely extraordinary feelings. In fact, they're almost depressingly ordinary (I've had some of them myself, in fact ) <P>Sorry if the tone of this was occasionally brusque, Ivory. I sense from the fact that you're coming here that there's SOMETHING in you that can be reached, that you haven't given up ALL hope of saving your marriage. But there's a lot of emotional crap that you need to get through before that's possible. Good luck, and keep posting here!! There are some great folks on here with wisdom far in excess of mine who can help!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Taxman (edited January 03, 2001).]

Hi Ivory,<P>First of all, I'll let you know that I am responding from the position your wife is in. I am a betrayed wife, and you are correct in noticing that most of the posters here are the betrayed spouse and not the betrayer. Taxman is an occasional exception, as is my husband, whose username is firestorm.<P>Telling your wife the truth, the whole truth, is the right thing to do. Not to help the other woman, but because your wife should be your number one priority in this situation and because she deserves to know the whole truth. I hope you will be honest with her, and if you decide to do that, please do it in the kindest way that you can by focusing on the fact that having an affair is selfish and wrong, and not by trying to justify adultery with feelings of "love".<P>In our situation, the other woman tried to blackmail her husband into a large financial settlement by threatening to embarass he and his family, me and my children, and my elderly mother. Her husband and I grew up together and he is like a younger brother to me. He had to come to me and tell me that my husband was having an affair with his wife. He also told his family and I told my children. Threat removed. My husband agreed to testify in a child custody hearing, and gave a deposition for their divorce proceedings. When she found out that evidence of her numerous affairs was going to allow her husband to get custody of their three small children and she would have to pay child support, she decided it would be in their best interest for she and her husband to stay together. Hard to believe a lying blackmailer was willing to stay in a loveless marriage with a sexually and verbally abusive husband for the sake of her children, isn't it.<P>Of course, all her tales of abuse and misery were lies, but my husband fell for them like a rock. That in no way excuses the choice he made, and in my mind he bears full responsibility for his choice to be unfaithful. My point is this, take these stories of her marriage with a grain of salt unless you have something besides her word to go on. Any person who would lie and deceive their spouse would surely do it to an affair partner.<P>From your post I can tell that you have read enough to know about the fog infidelity creates, and that nearly everyone involved in an affair believes that their illicit relationship is "special" and somehow unique. I can also tell that you think the same thing about yours. My husband certainly did. In his case, he was the "knight in shining armor" who was coming to save the damsel in distress from her loveless, abusive relationship. He believed he was the only person she could confide in and trust because she told him he was. He believed that she had never felt this way before because she said so. He believed that she would sacrifice anything for him and couldn't survive without him because she said so. The other two men she was having affairs with probably believed the same things. He believed all of this until she started making more and more demands on him and threatening to make sure I found out about the affair if he didn't give into her demands. And that is exactly what she did, she set him up to be recorded calling her by calling him from a phone booth and asking him to call her at a certain time when she knew her calls were being recorded.<P>Anyway, I digress. Affairs are not special and unique. By some statistics they occur in 80% of marriages. By your actions, your wife has been forced to join a club that no one wants to be in. She has a right to know this, and to make a decision about what is best for her. Please do what is right FOR HER.<P>I think the reason some of the responses you received are offensive to you is because the tone of your post makes it seem that the only true regret you have is that you got caught. That attitude is very hurtful to those of us who have been betrayed and we tend to respond to it with all the anger and hurt that it makes us feel.<P>My husband has expressed his regret to me and my family and we are in counseling. It has taken a lot of work to get to the point we are, and it would have been much easier it he had told me the truth himself instead of admitting it little by little when he got caught. You have the opportunity to do that for your wife. Please make her your prime concern from here on.<P>As to taxman's little sarcasm about my husband "getting religion", I'll just let that go since it was completely uncalled for and unnecessary to this discussion. If it makes him feel better about himself, it's a small price to pay during this holiday season.<P>Please don't give up on this site. It can offer alot of help to you and your wife.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

If I talk of "love" for OW, maybe I should say "addiction," and if so please pardon me. But if I understand Harley right, he would be the first to say that this addiction masquerades as a form of "love," with all the attending emotions. In the midst of it, it can be mistaken for love, but the mistake is seen best from the perspective of one on the outside looking in. I may not see it as well as I will see it at some point in the future, so when criticizing my talk of "love," please understand that point, as opposed to hammering away that I "don't get it." Of course I don't get it! Would I be here if I did?<P>Harley also clearly talks about withdrawal. Sometimes I get the feeling that people here expect me to act as if I am outside of the withdrawal period. Clearly I am not. When I am, I will see things differently, or so he promises. For now, though, everything must be read in the light of where I am at the moment, irrational as that seems to those of you not now going through it and now seeing it with your rose-colored glasses off.<P>I appreciate the fact that you all are willing to take time to type and write from your own experiences. I don't want to seem ungrateful. For the record--since more than one has questioned it---yes, I am willing and wanting to work on the marriage and am willing not to contact the OW again. I do understand that there are unaddressed factors in my marriage that led to this happening and that those must be uncovered. I also understand and accept that love is much more than whatever physical and emotional feelings and poassions I have felt for OW. I hope that clears things up a little.<P>Ivory

Ivory,<P>Thanks for posting. I haven't read your other thread but I wuould like to say that it is interesting to hear from a WS. I have continued to be puzzeled over issues surrounding the A and my H's thought process. It seems that it should be quite simple to understand given how it has been laid out by the Harley's. Never the less, I am still wondering about certain things. I think reading other WS posts helps a little.<P>I really don't have any advice for you. I do have a comment. I wanted to know things such as, who, why, how long, how did you break it off, what was her reaction. I did not want any of the gory little details of what sort of sexual things they did etc... I did ask where they would see each other. I did ask if she had any STDs. <BR>The reason I didn't want any gory details was because during my snooping phase, I heard voicemails and read emails and little office notes that made my stomach turn. To this day, they are burned into my mind.<BR>You are doing the right thing in ending it.<BR>cleo

Ivory,<P>There is confusion and withdrawal, I don't think anyone says don't feel it.<P>I think we are responding to your telling your W. Harley says it is the only way to heal a marriage and I agree. You will also be saving her from the further pain of possibly learning it from a third party.<P>These are the true reasons to consider telling your W. Not so the OW may feel she doesn't have to move. Who knows why she is going? Maybe when push comes to shove she wants her marriage. BUT THAT IS NOT YOUR CONCERN. In fact, true love is seeking the other's greater good. The only thing you can do for OW is to make it EASY for her to have no contact.<P>Harley covers all that - a no contact letter from you and your W and have your W help you by monitoring your e-mail, etc.<P>You will still have to deal with feeling like you have dumped the OW, like you could at least remain friends. But I think you are beginning to realize that is not possible.<P>We are a year from my h's no contact letter (and thank God she didn't try). It is much clearer now for him, and now he can see how stupid he was (his own words).<P>I would highly recomend you counsel with one of the Harley's. They could help you frame how you tell your W. My h told Jennifer Harley before he told me, and she prepared him to be TOTALLY HONEST and supportive.<P>Your W could well be devastated. Do you have any idea? My h said he thought I would be pissed. He never dreamed I would contemplate suicide the last time they were together BEFORE he told me. All I knew is that he wanted to move out because I was not good enough! I had no idea he had been cheating on me!

Gee, Ivory, there are some striking parallels between your situation and ours. My h & I have been in recovery for 2+ years and are doing really well. My h was involved in an ea with one of the music directors at our church where both he and I were and are extremely active. <P>Their relationship had literally gone on under my nose, but I thought his unhappiness with our marriage was solely attributable to midlife crisis. He promises that there was no one else, and I believed him because I believed him to be an honest person.<P>His ea ended when I threatened to sue ow and expose her love letters as exhibits. He and she were "imprisioned in their marriages by me" just as the h is doing in your situation. I weilded this big stick although it was not at all what I would have ever wanted to have to do. They, however, were so far into the fog that someone had to come in and take control. My h now thanks me and God that I was able to do it.<P>OW had been married for 15 years in what she described to my h as a "loveless" marriage filled with misery. The rest of the world saw a marriage to a wealthy businessman which produced lovely children and a seemingly wonderful lifestyle. <P>As soon as I made my position clear, Ow dropped my h. He stopped all contact with her and began to restore our marriage. Fairly soon he began feeling happy with me. He says that he actually felt a sense of relief much of the time once I learned of the ea and his deceit ended. It took him a while and the help of professional counselling to be able to examine their relationship for what they really were to each other beyond the ego boosting, the excitement, and the great emotional highs. <P>He was opposed to the very idea that he may have "chased a skirt." However, he finally realized that the ow in our case appears to be the personification of femininity, softness, sweetness, and physical attractiveness. Ironically, he has realized that those apparent attributes are rather typical in affairs. I will say that ow is a beautiful, extremely talented, and subtle woman. In many ways, she and my h are alike. In many ways she and I are opposites (I am agressive and not at all subtle, I am atheletic not soft, I am told that I do look pretty good, but I can't stand and instinctively don't trust "sweet".) <P>My h had reached a lull in his career and in his feelings of personal accomplishment. Meanwhile, my career seemed to him to be soaring. I am also a good mother. Our children are really close to me. I am very active in a number of church and community affairs. Guess who I took for granted and who got the least nurturing from me? MY h! Ow was right there to fill in the void. Also, I had gained 25 pounds that were not at all flattering. My h is an attractive and very physical man.<P>I quickly dropped the pounds and reorganized my priorities. My h says that he has a wonderful life and has never been happier. Ow is still cold toward her h. We see her several times each week because we are unavoidably involved together in a number of music programs at church. However my h says he absolutely cannot see any rational basis for the additive attraction he felt to her.<P>I share all this personal stuff because of the parallels. I hope that you will have the faith to cut the contact absolutely and to put your heart into applying the Harley principals with genuine good faith. Like others, I think that you will not believe you felt the things you wrote after 6 months of climbing back into reality, of renewing your marital commitment and moral strength, of examining what the real attraction was in ow, and of really looking for the good qualities in your wife. <P>I further believe that it is especially hard where the affair is church related because that is where we generally get our spiritual renewal. For me, that was an expecially hard irony. I do hope that it will be made easier for you and your wife by your ow's relocation. I will pray for you and your family. <P>

Wesse, thanks for a detailed and sincere accounting of what happened to you. Yes, there are a few parallels. <P>As for my situation, I can report this new development, that OW has decided on her own to move to where her H's job is after all, about two hours away. She claims that this is her own decision, as opposed to the characterization of it as a "deal" her husband made her agree to, as I said yesterday. I am not sure I believe her, but as advised in this forum I am trying to acknowledge that I need to let her situation (and decisions) be whatever it is or becomes and to work on my own. She says that she believes this will help her get over me, and she's probably right. The fact that it probably will help me as well is not lost on me.<P>At the moment I am acting on faith and intellect. My emotions are shot to hell, of course, The wihdrawal is very difficult right now, but it hasn't been very long since it started. <P>Ivory<P>

Ivory,<BR>If you spoke to the OW yesterday, or even if you sought info about her from a third person...you had "contact" and real withdrawal has not yet begun. Any contact at this point is back to ground zero for withdrawal. Sorry.<P>The last time my H left me, I let a friendship with a male friend escalate, and I truly care(d) about him and he told me I was perfect. The last time I saw him was in May, but he came in my store last week...and even after that amount of time, and the fact that my H & I are together and both want our marriage very much, seeing the OM really didn't do me any good. Except that I recognized he was not who I thought he was, and I never was who he wanted me to be.<P>I'm not back in withdrawal, but he is back in my thoughts moreso than he had been. No contact is really critical, and your OW's move is a good thing for your marriage. Let her go.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Ivory, I think that you have taken a big step forward in observing that your emotions are shot and in concluding that you must act on faith and intellect for a time. <P>My h is a gifted musician and by nature is prone to follow his emotions. He says that during his ea he could not step back from the emotional high to evaluate where he was blindly heading or to give real thought to the consequences to himself or to others (including ow). This was even much later especially difficult for him to acknowledge because he is in a profession based in logic and analysis of facts. (Unfortuneately, another large part of it involves manipulation of facts for purposes of advocacy.) <P>You, on the other hand, have already intelluctually faced the fact that your emotions are misleading you at this time. I sense that you feel spiritually depressed.<P>It seems to me that you are close to opening up to the prospect that your emotional involvement with the ow may be the block to happiness in your marriage. You have not described you w or your marital history, but I haven't read any of your posts that malign your wife or marriage. I hope this means that you are still able to recall some good in that history.<P>We'd all like to spend our days lying on the beach or drinking beer or eating chocolate or playing golf or reading novels. Most of us have learned the need for self control and moderation in these kinds of things. However, neither our family, church, school, or other elements of our society have prepared us for blind-side crashing effect when the depressing sameness of midlife is suddenly combined with attraction to a person with a special chemistry. <P>I think your battle is half won in your willingness to acknowledge that your emotions may be misleading you and that the best way to deal with your situation responsibly is by having absolutely no contact with the op. You have referred to your feelings for the ow as an addiction. That is probably true. We all know the effect of a little bit of cocaine to a drug addict or a little bit of alcohol to an alcoholic. Those truths are no less valid to someone struggling with an emotional addiction. Cutting loose is the greatest gift you can give your wife, your children if there are any, yourself, and even the op. <P>While watchin Saving Private Ryan I thought about how our forefathers did not want to go to war for several years risking their lives for the people and institutions they held dear, but they did it honorably. Even those who survived suffered through horrendous circumstances and lived with the consequences. They had made an honorable choice. I will never know where they found the courage to run up the beaches at Normandy, but I thank God that somehow they did. <P>You are facing a choice of whether to honor a commitment that you made years ago, to cut and run, or to dally around with a foot in both camps. I hope and believe that your spirit can be strong enough allow you to pull yourself back to the path of honor that you are beginning to acknowledge.

Again, Wessee, a very well-stated expression with many truths. <P>To clarify the contact issue, it was on 1-2 when I learned of the confrontation OW's H had with her. She handed me a note she had written about it, because she feared she could not adequately say what she wanted to say, and there was little time for our meeting. Believe me, meeting again the next day to discuss that and only that was essential, as threats had been made that could have affected many people. By the next day (1-3), cooler heads had prevailed and H was far less angry. OW and I talked about things that HAD to be talked about. We then parted and plan to remain that way.<P>Someone mentioned that I have not talked much about my wife. She is a loving, caring, patient, tolerant, Christian woman, a highly competent professional person, and besides all that, quite beautiful. In this town, there's no one that doesn't esteem her loftily. The story of our romance is quite a story, as a matter of fact. So yes, there is definitely a good early history, and that is one of the things that I have tried to hold onto as a reason to hope that someday what once was could be again (if I felt that way once, I could feel that way again). In this forum there is much talk about that as a possibility, and despite what shortcomings some may think I have displayed as to my true intentions, I have not necessarily given up on that. It will require a re-construction job, to be sure.<P>Ivory

Ivory,<P>In response to your "reconstuction" comment. Dr. Harley addressed this in his weekend workshop. He said that meeting our spouses most important emotional needs is like learning new habits. He asked us to cross our arms and the cross them the opposite way. It was very difficult to cross them the opposite way. Several times during the day he would ask us to cross our arms the opposite way of what we usually do. Every time, I could not do it. I actually had to think about it. This is how he illustrates the learning of meeting each others needs. It is uncomfortable at first and requires much attention and concentration. After repetition, it becomes second nature. <BR>Try starting with the HN/HN book and questionnare so that you both can learn what your top emotional needs are. They are often quite different for each spouse. Try meeting the top two and perfecting it. This will give you a good platform to start from.<P>take care,<BR>cleo

Ivory, I am so glad that you recognize all those wonderful qualities in your wife. Now I am truly optimistic that yours will ultimately be a good recovery.<P>Those of us who have been through a successful recovery probably seem to minimize your feelings for the op, but the prospects of meaningful recovery for couples is so good when the marriage partners are good loving attractive people who share a positive history.<P>I would not be at all surprised if your wife has taken you for granted like I did with my h. My h seemed like such a strong devoted h that it truly never occurred to me that his feelings for me could ever be diminished. How stupid that sounds to me now. Self sacrifice for children, church, and community comes natural to me and I guess I felt that h-sacrifice was part of the same concept. I now try much harder to nurture myself and my h just as I do our children. Before, but without really thinking about it, I suppose I considered that selfishness.<P>My h further felt that I did not love him enough to give him the attention that he needed. That was far from the truth, but I certainly see how he could've interpreted my neglect in that way - particularly when tempted by his attraction to a beautiful talented woman. <P>I do hope that your wife loves you enough to do what it takes to assure you of her love and her willingness and ability to be the wife you need. Also, I hope that you are able to give her that unencumbered chance. <P>Many of us here will give you encouragement. We should also try nonjudgementally to discuss your feelings when you hit the unavoidable bumps in recovery. That is not to say that we don't have bias because we certainly do. I feel that our family has been given a wonderful gift in recovery after a truly traumatic experience. Sharing that experience just seems right if it may help others.<P>At some point when you are able to tell your wife about this experience, she, too may find this website a lifesaver. It has been for me when there were times when I felt so sad, depressed, or angry.

Ivory,<BR> While I admire the gesture you propose to "disarm" this blackmailer, I question what is really going on in your head and the OW's head. Please don't take offense....I'm being brutally honesty in my response and have no wish to offend.<BR> Some questions came to mind as I thought about your original post. How is it that your OW has spend every day of her 13 year marriage in misery and without love? Why is it that she has not filed for divorce? One does not need one's spouse's permission to do so. Also, what is "noble and self-sacraficing" about a spouse who chooses to betray wedding vows and his/her spouse and engage in an A rather than either work to improve or end the marriage? You say that if she "couldn't take it anymore" she could leave. If she has "endured" 13 years with a man she does not love and instead resorts to adultery to meet her needs, she has proven that she has an above-average tolerance for suffering and probably will never reach the "breaking point." I'm sure she has a dozen excuses for why she remains married, even in her misery.<P>Ivory, you are deluding yourself about your A. You and she have somehow been able to justify to yourselves and each other the immorality and sleaziness of your own behavior. If you both indeed "love" each other, do the mature, responsible, and ultimately compassionate thing and either end your marriages and marry each other or stop contact with each other forever. Anything less is unfair to your spouses and incredibly selfish.<P>Your post is a classic example of the thinking of betraying spouses. You seem to believe that you and your OW are exceptions to the feelings most people engaged in affairs have. You say you "love" each other, etc., etc. If you read even a few of the posts on this site, you will realize that nearly ALL people engaged in affairs admit to emtional feelings to one degree or another and see their relationships as "special" and "meaningful." That is one of the appeals of affairs. So what you are feeling is pretty typical of anyone engaged in an affair that lasts longer than a one-night-stand.<P>Wake up and face the reality of what you are really doing. If you intend to maintain ANY relationship with this woman while you are still married to your present wife, you are engaged in adultery. Period. God did not say "Thou shalt not commit adultery unless you happen to love the other person and she's unhappily married and then it's ok." HELLO. <P>

Anniem,<P>I expect to be slapped around in this forum...it's part of what I need, I'm sure. So I will acknowledge you as one of the therapeutic slappers. However, it seems difficult to believe that you read my posts very carefully.<P>I one of my replies I very clearly admitted the liklihood that what I and OW call "love" we---like so MANY others in our situation-- do so because whatever it really is masquerades in emotions that most usually are called "love" by the average person. not having the benefit of the wisdom of a Dr. Harley or the experienced commentators in this forum. People like I and OW might be dumb sheep, so please excuse the inappropriate bleating from time to time, or using sheep language instead of shepherd lanaguage. Harley himself says that the "love" is based on an addiction, which also is to say that the addiction masquerades as love. Rest assured---if you've never been a WS yourself--that the addiction is extremely strong and very diffult first to admit and second to do something about. It is a long, slow, painful crawl. (No, I don't expect or ask for anyone's sympathy. I'm merely relating a fact.)<P>We do not consider our A "somehow different" as if it is we that "get it" and all the rest of you that don't. How likely would that be? Nor are we guiltless. Perhaps you require of TYPE of guilt (sackcloth and ashes) or a LEVEL of guilt (67 decibels) and see neither in us, but that wouldn't make you right, except that perhaps that was what you yourself had to experience before you made the break (or the WS in your life). OW and I are intelligent, reasonable people acting stupidly and unreasonably, though perhaps predictably.<P>---<P>Wesse,<P>To address your comment about my wife taking me for granted, I assure you that she absolutely does not. She certainly acknowledges (how could she not?) that we have a marriage in trouble, and she knows she has been neglected. But awhile back she said, "I wake up every day and make the decision to love you." And, her actions back that up. She continues to do little things and big things, and is almost always upbeat and positive.<P>My actions notwithstanding, she is a jewel. I hope soon that we can go through the emotional needs questionairre, for so far--in reviewing it myself--I can't identify any one of them that she isn't willing and hasn't tried to meet. That's why I think our problem will turn out to be either an emotional need not clearly identified on the questionairre or something within me that is blocking my reception of all that she has tried to do to meet my needs through her role as my wife.<P>Ivory<P>