<BR>I was discussing the terms of my upcoming divorce with my W yesterday when I remembered a news story from a few months ago. It seems that a woman in a nearby community had begun an internet affair with a man. This man plotted with the woman and another man to murder the woman's husband. I don't remember the gory details, thankfully, but the poor guy did end up being betrayed by his wife and killed by her lover while trying to repair his marriage.<P>As I sat there looking at my wife, it occurred to me that being murdered might not be so bad, compared to being betrayed.<BR>

i think you should UNrealize that. <P>you can get over betrayal not murder...

Hi o2bsane,<P>I'm truly sorry things are so difficult for you right now, and I know that the promise of a better future does little to comfort you at a time like this.<P>I must admit to having similar thoughts sometimes. I can even recall quite clearly telling my husband that, given the choice you mentioned, I would take death everytime. I still find myself feeling that way during difficult times, but those times are getting fewer and further between. I hope that you will soon find the same to be true, though I know it will be a long and difficult time for you. I wish there was more that we could do to help, but please know that there is care and concern for you on this site.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

o2bsane,<P>I agree. You can not get over it when the betrayer undergoes a complete personality transformation, when a devoted father acts as if he doesn't give a d*** about his kids, when he feels no responsibility for them beyond what is court ordered. <P>I am so sick of people telling me that it will get better, when in fact he gets more and more cruel, to the kids as well.

OK, hang on a minute.....<BR>As bad as we all feel here - WS's, BS's, OP's, if anyone thinks they would rather be dead, go see a psychiatrist.<P>YOU ONLY GET ONE LIFE ON THIS PLANET.<P>No matter what, the average lifetime is around 83 now, so if you have a bad spell of 5 years where you have to work through this kind of conflict that still leaves you with 78 years where you could be happy. Take off 20 for childhood, you've still got 58 to work with.<P>Pain is a horrible emotion, but being dead doesn't give you the chance to put it right.<P>Imagine standing at the pearly gates and being asked, "Well, was it all worth it then".<P>I don't know about you, but i want to do everything I can to go out on a happy note, knowing I did everything in my power to right my worngs and be a better person for them.<P>Nellie - we have to beleive that life will get better - it can & does get worse, but for me it's the knowledge that time will pass, and that i will get through this one way or the other that keeps me sane.<P>If you had the choice between people telling you that it will get better, be strong, be brave, be patient, or people telling you it will get much worse, be weak, let it go, get out now,which would you choose?<P>There is strength in numbers, and this is where it's to be found.<P>Try to keep on the rails folks, even the longest, fastest rollercoaster in the world will come to an end sometime. It's over all too soon, so if you've queued for hours, once you've got your ticket, ride it all the way, and only get off when you have to!!!!!!<P>McB.

McBroon,<P>I would much prefer that people hadn't given me false hope. I would rather have been prepared for the fact that two years later, my H would be consumed with rage toward me, that it would be MUCH, MUCH worse than when he first left, that he wouldn't care whether he hurt the kids as long as he hurt me in the process. I would have been much better off had I been smart enough to get everything in writing at the beginning, before he realized that life with the OW wasn't perfect, that she can't stand his kids, and decided to blame me for the fact that he left his children for her. <P>My H was a good man and a loving father. Now he is neither. The realization that that kind of transformation can and does take place quite often, and that there is no way to predict when or to whom it will happen, has destroyed everything I ever believed in.<P>Almost no one here is really in the same situation. Everytime I read about someone whose spouse has said he was sorry for hurting them, and they complain because he did not say he was sorry for what he had done, everytime I read about someone whose spouse said they want to remain friends, I realize how extreme my H's anger is. Everytime I read about someone whose spouse "only" calls the kids every few days, I am reminded that my H will only see the children on his terms, when it is convenient. Anything that could possibly be considered a "chore" rather than fun that is related to the kids - caring for them when I need to go someplace with another child, going to teacher conferences, picking them up at an activity, - all those he refuses to do - apparently he considers those "babysitting". I don't know how much of it is that the OW doesn't want our kids around, and how much of it is revenge on his part - ie, I have custody of the kids, and therefore I "should" have to have total responsibility for them 24/7. He didn't even go to the hospital when our youngest had a serious medical procedure done. I stood there terrified while her oxygen saturation dropped briefly, and all the time knew that he didn't even care enough to be there. All this from a man who told an prospective employer that spending time with his family was the most important thing in the world to him. <P>I do not understand how you or anyone else can expect anyone to actually look forward to living to 83 in a world like this, where a Mother Theresa could turn into Hitler overnight. Years ago, when a man in our town who had been by all accounts a good family man, slit his children's throats and killed his wife with an ax, my young daughter asked how you can know when you get married that your husband won't kill you. Of course I thought it was terribly sad that a child should have to worry about such things, and I tried to reassure her about how extremely rare that is. Whereas it is certainly rare for a man to kill his entire family, thank goodness, it is all too common for a man (or a woman) to turn into a monster and emotionally and physically abandon them. And there is no way to know that your spouse will not do that. <P>I will endure whatever I have to in order to take care of my children. I do NOT believe that life will necessarily get better. I have seen no evidence to support that hypothesis, and much evidence to the contrary. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 04, 2001).]

OK, I have to chime in here.<P>My situation is a little like Nellie's, except instead of dealing with perpetual anger, I deal with a continuing to cheat husband that has completely turned off his emotions. He also ditched the kids, hasn't been introspective for a minute, and continues to blame me for the situation. I take care of all the chores for the kids. It's been nearly 2 1/2 years and there's been zero progress on his part.<P>BUT, I strongly believe that life can, and has, gotten better. I do think my husband is a hopeless jerk who did undergo some form of a transformation which may not be temporary. But his antics are now expected, therefore they've lost their power. I no longer love or respect him at all and I don't hurt, at least not from his lack of love, remorse, or compassion towards me or the kids.<P>The vast majority of people eventually get passed the betrayal, no matter how severe it was or continues to be. There is love out there again for just about everyone, if you're willing to open up and take chances again. I think it's worth it. I just need to do it with greater thoughtfulness this time around.<P>Regardless of your sentiment, NO ONE should mistake the grieving period of the first few months as something that endures. It just doesn't. To make life altering decisions in that state of mind would be a big mistake.

Sorry O2bsane,life does throw us some curves at times, doesn't it, and I'm sorry your marriage has come to this.<P>I know this sounds trite, but I keep thinking "What if my WS had just died" instead of walking away from me. Would I have missed him any less? Would I have grieved for him the rest of my life? No, I think I would have grieved for a while and then picked myself up and gone on. Sure it hurts alot to be left behind, but the effect is still the same...we get up and on...because we believe in life. It's all we have and it's so short to spend a minute more then we have to hurting.<P>That hurt is partly inflicted on ourselves because we give in to it...allow what's happened to form a basis to mold our future around...a prediction of the way life will be. That in itself could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's all in the way we look at it. <P>It reminds me of the intense emotions of teenagers...those who take their lives because they can't conceive of life getting any better for them. Do you agree with them? No, you know that those intense feelings are transitory...and so are the ones you are feeling now. Reach out for the hands that are offered you and we'll help you to see that life will still go on...and believe it or not...life will get better.<P><BR>Oh, Nellie, how you are hurting. Your posts made me cry...to see someone in such pain. It is so apparent to me though that this intense anger towards you is not a usual element of a marriage breakup...not after two years. Sure, WS can be cruel or thoughtless, and even selfish at times, but the intense feelings usually subside over time and the parties begin to make some adjustment to deal with each other in a kinder manner.<P>I question what your WS is holding against you that results in his continuing anger. It appears that he is the one who had the affair...why is he so angry with you?<P>Given even that he feels that his anger is justified...you do not have to accept that anger as justified. If you have done everything you can do to make amends to him for whatever it was you did or have done, then you need for your own sake to let it go and let him deal with it. To do anything else (trying to reason with him, making concessions to please him, bending over backwards to get along, etc) gives validity or credence to his feelings. <P>Your WS has a problem...a problem only he can deal with. Don't let it continue to be your problem...it's time to move pass it and stop letting it take control of your life.<P>You may think I don't understand...but I do.<BR>My WS is addicted to sex, and has paraded several women in and out of my life...but he is the one with the problem...not me. In the end I realized that and have let him go...to find his own path. Whether that is back to me or not...I know I will survive and go on...a little sadder maybe and a whole lot wiser...but still me. You will too.<P><BR>Angels and Prayer ~ Faye<P>

Distressed,<P>The pain does numb a bit after awhile. After awhile you feel less emotion - sort of like the description of being on anti-depressants - but along with less intensity to the pain, there is less joy. And that certainly doesn't go away after a few months, or even a couple of years.<P>I guess one issue is whether you think that one's spouse is a fluke, a statistical outlier, or whether anyone can undergo such a transformation. When our best man left his wife for an OW, I thought that was a fluke. When a good friend's husband left her for an OW, I thought he was a jerk - but I'd thought so all along. But I have read too many stories where good men undergo these transformations. I found the book, "Sudden Endings" terrifying. I have come to the conclusion that this behavior, even with the extreme anger, is not at all uncommon.<P>Faye,<P>I think I do know why my H is so angry after all this time. I think life with the OW is not as pleasant as he expected. I think he projects his anger at the OW for interfering with his relationship with the children on me. I think he blames me for his having an affair and leaving. He told me and the therapist that he "had" to leave because the prospect of staying with me had made him suicidal. Apparently the fact that he was not suicidal before the affair began was not relevant to him. He had felt that way for "weeks, maybe months" and therefore he had come to the conclusion that he would never have "positive feelings" for me again.<P>No, it makes no sense that he could be so angry after all this time - but the author of "Sudden Endings" could not understand it either. She has done extensive research on men who leave their wives after long term marriages and this "narcissistic rage" is extremely common. <P>It is not that I was just unlucky enough to marry the rare person with a personality disorder that didn't show up for years until financial stress and the death of relatives precipitated a personality break. The problem is that it is not rare.

Nellie:<P>Being a "Doubting Thomas" I think I would have to question that research. Mine was a long term relationship and others on this board have been in long term relationships and have not experience this. How can it be that common. Maybe we need some more input from other MB that have experienced this.<P>Now, my WS is crazy and his MLC began after health crisis and deaths in his family, but he has never been vindictive or cruel, just selfish and inconsiderate. <P>Either way...this is your WS' problem...and you are letting it effect you too much. You don't think he's right do you? It sounds like your H may be like mine...a person who really never takes the blame for anything he does...I know I have been used as a "whipping boy" for years...someone to vent his anger on. So everything is your fault...heavens, he's not to blame for anything so it must be you.<P>My WS tried to blame me at first for the marriage problems, but has since admitted his share in the failure and he has never blamed me for anything concerning the affair...and she has put him through the ringer.<P>Stop letting him blame you...it's ridiculous and it sounds childish...to turn around and blame you for what are his mistakes. He needs to grow up.<P>Faye<BR>

Nellie,<P>I like Faye, cried when your post. My WS like your has a tremendous anger at me, I think he will always blame for his A, I think we are both to blame for the causes leading to him embarking on an A, but only he is responsible for having an A. No one pushed him into, he entered of his own free will, the same he says he feels trapped here in Singapore with us, but he is the one that pushed for us coming after I backed out, after listening to his doubts for weeks. These were his choices but he blames me neither the less. We can't be held responsible for H's anger, I am finally realizing he has to deal with it & its cause not me.<P>I pray that you find peace. I don't remember if you are seeing a counselor or what, but I pray that you can let go of you anger bitterness & let you WS deal with his.<P> As always prayers for you & your children, you all have had such a rough time

Gee Sing, maybe this is more common then I thought. Maybe more MB will join in with their stories.<P>You know this sounds like the sort of thing you hear from wife beaters..."you forced me to do it"..."if only you had been better".<BR>That's a hard concept for me to understand too...how someone can place the blame for what is obviously his problem on someone else's shoulders. Yet it happens...and the wife somewhere inside accepts that blame to a certain extent...and the beating continues...until she's had enough and says "no more". <P>I reaffirm that perhaps like you said it's time to say "no more" to being blamed for the affair and its repercussions. Let him face the guilt and stop allowing him to rationalize his guilt by blaming it on you.<P>Not having experienced this I have more questions then answers, but this process is difficult enough without one partner failing to acknowledging the level of his own guilt...at least to himself. And it must seem hopeless to hope for getting back together in the face of such anger. What is tragic is that Nellie is infected by that guilt and anger and she needs to be free of it to get well.<P> <P>Faye.

sing,<P>I don't think I am bitter, but terribly hurt and most of all disillusioned. <P>Faye,<P>The author of the book experienced the same reaction - disbelief that he husband could be so angry for no reason. After interviewing many women in similar circumstances, she found that it was fairly common in cases where men left their wives after long term marriages with little or no warning. In many, perhaps most, cases, this occurred after a crisis, often a business failure - something that destroyed the man's self-esteem and precipitated depression. The wife became, in psychological parlance, the "bad object" onto whom they projected their negative feelings. Often the men imagined that their wives were persecuting them. There is far more to this than merely unmet needs.<BR> <BR>No, I do not think I am to blame for his affair. Unfortunately, the only thing my H has accepted any part in was that if "we" had faced our (unspecified) "problems" we would have divorced years ago. <P>It is not a matter of "getting well." I don't believe I am "infected" by anything. Unfortunately this situation is common enough that I doubt very much if I would have married, knowing the risk. At least physical abusers don't usually wait for 24 years and six children to start abusing their wives.<P>