I spoke with Steve Harley today, which was a good thing. I'll do so again next week, so I look forward to that. Of course I have about 20 questions I thought of that I'd like to ask. It helps to hear his perspective...he has lots of good advice and insight.<P>15 minutes before I was to call Steve, I got a call from my wife, and the rollercoaster was off and running. Nasty, abrasive, doing that "huh" thing before every insulting statement. That was it for effective concentration skills today at work. The real reason for the call was she wanted me to pick the kids up from the babysitter, instead of her, and take them to my place, because she had scheduled an appointment with a client at the end of her usual hours. I asked if everything was OK and she said "why wouldn't it be". So I said simply that I care, and hope she is OK. My overall fear is that she is soon going to face reality in financial land, and be wanting more $$, which translates to me selling the house. Hopefully not yet though. Anyway, I got to take the kids, and they are sleeping here tonight, even though she was to have them till Monday. Tonight she is still at work, in a better mood, and asked if the kids and I, and her Mom, would want to meet her for breakfast instead of her just taking the kids and going home. So we'll do that. Confusing person!<P>Found out her and OM took the kids bowling last night. Wasn't happy about that. My son told me he could say "5 + 5 equals 10" in French, and he demonstrated. I said "wow, who taught you that, your teacher?". Nope, OM. I'm annoyed at that, but what can you do. Does anyone know what Steve Harley would say about OPs being around your kids? I suspect just that you can't do anything?<P>Oh, the big kicker. She called me right back after the nasty call, just to tell me that on a couple of her ID items (license, health card), when she changed her address, she put her maiden name. Not happy about that either. She told me long ago she'd revert to it at work, so I'm trying not to place much emphasis on that. But it is bothersome.<P>Things were just coasting till this call today. She was in a distant mode, today nasty, I suppose a friendly one is next on the list. WAT, be careful, if mine throws the nasty baton up in the air, you don't want your wife on the scene to catch it.<P>I feel like telling someone more details concerning her past in the marriage, because I do worry whether she could ever actually "work" on the marriage. She has a problem with making joint decisions and being in control of things...very impulsive and sometimes wants to decide something big on her own according to her ideas, which change often. Steve's comment was that what I describe is not behavior that will allow a marriage to be healthy, so that would have to be dealt with. Would she ever come to terms with this? I don't know...but I have to just hope that rock bottom could trigger getting help. I work under the assumption that if we did work on meeting each others needs and no LBs, some combustion would take place and maybe that sort of behavior would be less. Maybe happiness would calm her mind down. I trust I'm not the only one wanting to save a marriage where you know there are issues like this to deal with? About 3 weeks before separation request in June, she wanted a finished basement. Next week, wanted to replace this house (1 year old then) and make one even better. Next week, was all excited about the possibility of moving to Paris, because I had a potential job there. 4 days later, wanted to separate. Always changing her mind. Sometimes being spontaneous is alot of fun, but there is a comfortable limit. Anyone else experience this sort of stuff?<P>I feel so much better when my kids are here. I hate not having them. This is long enough. Thank you for reading my update. I'll try and shorten the next one. Take care everyone.<P>PS: Almost got injured...was out skiing and some crazy snowboarder cut me off...oh well, he took a tumble and went off on a stretcher..wait a sec, that must have been WAT (ok, I wasn't skiing).

Rick, Glad to hear you are still so upbeat given the circumstances. I don't think Harley or any counselor would say that it is a good idea for the kids to be introduced to the OP so soon...but seems our WS's make their own rules.<P>I found your admissions of your wifes prepersonality interesting and very familiar.<P>My H too, changes his mind frequently. In fact, has done this (walked away) from a previous marraige, from jobs, ideas, diets, etc. so often you would think he would see a pattern.<P>But they don't.<P>My H is in counseling. But for all I know he is lying there as well. But he is going.<P>I have been at this for a year. I thought so many times my H would hit rock bottom...he almost appeared to, and then didn't.<P>You would think having the ow..who is still married, has two kids of her own, is pregnant and showing the US of "their " son to everyone, still sleeps with her H when he is at home, goes to church with them..etc. would be enough..<P>You would think losing the respect of your family, friends and colleagues would be enough.<P>But it hasn't been.<P>He has managed to surround himself with a small circle of a support system...which does not include his mom and sibs... and been able to rationalize everything.<P>He comes off so "in the know", that people don't question him.<P>Funny thing is that I lived with this and accepted it because...well...I figured ...people are people...and he was very conciderate, and truthful giving and loving and devoted to me and the kids all those years.<P>But, he has never had close friends. It was always me , the kids and his family.<P>He seems to run to the next thing thinking it is the answer.... He was always so attached to me..in fact, friends would say he always needed to know where I was etc. all the time.<P>It is a big problem and one he has to face.<P>It is sad.<P>I guess I was just on the very small inner circle of his supporters for those 13 years.. He can really make himself appear the "good guy"...but when you are on the outside...he doesn't give you the time of day.<P>In retrospect..I wish I had paid more attn to his previous relationship. I met him after he was separated...but I JUST found out how soon it really was. I guess he lied to me about his first wife...but he had his family believeing it too, so I believed his family and his big thing was that she didn't want to have kids and family was so important to him....<P>So here I am..he told the OW the same things about me...I wasn't affectionate to him...wasn't intimate (unbelievable lie), cared more about things than him... (he told me the same things about his previous wife.)<P>But this time he told OW..it was me who wanted kids..he wanted to do other things with his career...which he is trying to do now.<P>So it is a big problem. <P>My counselor says he is like an drug user and will use his supply until it doesn't give him what he needs and will move on losing more and more along the way. Sometimes they hit rock bottom...but when there is always a new supply....who can tell when. I would still just be her friend... You can't help her with her bigger problems. I pray she is able to figure out that emptiness that is inside of her, before it's too late.

<BR>Rick,<BR> I feel for you guy. <BR>This is what I have been dealing with this week<P>I posted this at DB..<P><BR>OK I think I am gonna Love BUST my butt off tonight. I just found out some really disturbing stuff from both of my kids and I am furious. That selfish piece of sh**!!! I am so mad right now I am trying to calm down. He has no respect for my children.<BR>My son is 10 and Daughter is 13 he finds it appropriate to go in the room when they are there and have sex with OW. My kids say they sit and whisper and tell secrets and then disappear onto the room. My son got out of the shower on Sunday and H was on top of OW on the couch... What should I do. right now I want to kill!!!!<P>My kids have come to the decision that they do not want to visit him at his house. He called last night and asked if they were coming over this weekend. I said "no I don't think so". He asked why I said "they told me they did not want to". He said oh I said "ok talk to ya later". I wanted to rip him a new one but, I have decided I will just let it go until he ask what the deal is...<P>He is truly a piece of work right now. My son is losing respect everyday, caught H in a lie and now all of this. S is not happy.<BR>I am just trying to detach for a bit he is continually playing his games. Why I don't know he is the one who left so why the need to keep hurting me..<P>This issue with the kids and OP is ridiculous what are they thinking?????<P><BR>Diana<P>

tootrusting,<P>Didn't take long for someone to reply with similar experiences on the "walk away" style of living. Is your H in counselling for his walk away tendencies, or does he not think of it as a problem. I've never discussed it with my wife, and always just accepted it, calling it more "spontaneous" than anything else. But alot of thinking over the past months has sunk in, and I know it is a pattern and a problem. I could write a huge list of interests, values, and ideas that changed often. Like you say, the next thing is the answer. Thanks for your fast reply.

It was good to hear an update from you. I'm sorry about the kids being with OM. That would make me see red for sure. It sounds like your W is at the same place. What is the deal with playing happy family (the breakfast you mentioned)? Do you think she does it for you ,her, or the kids? My H has been sometimes asking me along when he does things with the kids on his days. I can't tell if it is pity, or if he thinks the kids will like it and he doesn't mind, or if he truly wants me to be along. It is confusing. I have been accepting the invites lately because they have been at times that I don't have the kids and at least I don't feel like I'm being used so he can see the kids.<P>I'm glad you had a chance to talk with Steve Harley. Do you feel like you gained some insights that will help or was it basically reinforcement of things you already know?<P>Glad to hear you have the kids tonight! My H has mine until tomorrow night. I'm using the time to put together some erector and LEGO sets that the kids got for Christmas. They can't quite do it on their own yet. I'm proud to say that I have become quite competent in this area despite the lack of any natural aptitude. (In my very former life I was an engineer, but there was a reason I was an electrical rather than a mechanical engineer. I have no feel for mechanical things and no real sense of spatial relations.) Oh well, it almost looks like the pictures -- maybe the kids won't notice! Take care.

Goochy: I replied in a fresh posting to your situation. Thanks for your post.<P>Exhausted: The happy family thing is just something that she does every so often. I never know when the mood will strike her. I think it is in part an "old times" habit, also partly for the kids, don't know if she wants to see me.<P>Talking to Steve was worthwile. Since it was my first call, yes it did reinforce things I already knew, since I've been hanging around here since end of August. However, he can pick up on things and provide you with some good ideas and strategies. I can tell that I'll gain more insight when I talk to him again, after filling out questionnaires as though it were my wife doing it.<P>So you are an electrical engineer? So am I. Good luck with the kits. I've been doing alot of Lego lately too.

Rick or should i say Larry, i never know anymore.<P>We played are playing happy family & have done so since the beginning. But now my H feels trapped, I will write this Mon when my house is not full of boys, I have lost count of how many bodies are in the tv room. It will smell like wet dogs.<P>JUst keep doing it, I think that it makes it harder, but let her always do the asking, I think.<P>Legos---you maybe the King of Plan A but I am the Queen of Legos, my house has been covered in Legos for going on 14 yrs. I don't think they ever get to old for them, my OS sneaks in his brothers room to play.

Hang in there, Rick. Your strength is your ability to roll with the punches. Remember, compared to other successful outcomes, we're still pretty early in the project. I don't have any specific recommendations because i think you're doing what you should be doing. Control your reactions to her unpredictable actions. This is all you can do. The name thing and the kids being with OM hurt badly, I know. These are extensions of the central problem and will always follow in step with it. It's hard, but you gotta but them to the side. Just stay aware if your kids are being acutely harmed beyond what's already been done to them.<P>I think your biggest weapon right now is PTC.<P>Dave (WAT)

Rick, my H was (coerced) into going to counseling by his family and me simply to figure out what he was going to say to the kids.<P>He is still going and has been for about a year. I was the one who found the counselor who specializes in mens midlife issues. He is NOT for d at all, esp. with the kids. I know he is not patting my H on the back and since this is a pattern, I suppose they are discussing it.<P>All that's really happened though is that my H is better with the kids (more connected) and is nicer to me. but his inconguent life style continues and he still lies and lives in secresy....even with the blabber mouth pregnant married OW.<P>My kids have not had to deal with the OW> Deep inside I know my H has a problem with that as well. They do not live together. My h is also very focused on himself in ways that do not include the OW> such as his hobbies like hockey etc.<P>I am wondering if plan A can really work with this situation. I have been unbelievably nice. I know he and ow have been at each others throats for a year so talk about lbing. But I think in reality, it is not about the ow for my H, but himself. <P>From her H i found out that he barely acknowledges the "baby"...so what does that tell you. she just hangs on, and allows him to take her places ...but she doesn't realize she is a pawn in this situation as well.<P>I think a personality disorder is more accurate... attachment difficulites or narcissistic personality. I think they just find a new narcissistic supply so to speak.<P>I'm not sure we can do anything about it.<P>But after all this time, I do believe we can set boundaries.