My wife is in an emotional affair with an OM. She talks to him on the phone several times a day (sometime she hides it from me, other times while I'm in the room). I don't think she sees it as an affair. You'll find the details in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000548.html" TARGET=_blank>this</A> thread.<P>It's a long distance relationship. We're near the West coast, he's on the East coast. She spent the New Year's weekend out there with him and his family (he's legally separated from his wife, but lives in her house in a room in the basement).<P>I've been Plan Aing for a few weeks now. She sometimes seems responsive and other times horrible.<P>Today, she was getting ready to send him some photographs that she needed to scan in. She was having trouble with the scanner and asked for my help. I asked if these were to be sent to <I>him</I> and she said yes. I said I was sorry but I couldn't help in that case. She got mad and fixed it herself, and spent the next hour on the phone and computer with him. <P>Later she seemed to calm down. I asked her if we could talk. She agreed. I told her I was sorry if I hurt her, but that I cannot support her relationship with the OM in any way. I also said that I do love her and will support her in any other way I can. That I'm committed to our marriage, working on me to make up for all of the mistakes and ignorance that has contributed to the problems in our marriage. She mostly listened. Every once in a while she's say something like, "I've been trying for years and right now, I just don't have anymore to give."<P>Near the end of the conversation, she said she's thinking that a separation might help. She said, "I've talked with friends who said that separation helped them realize that they couldn't live without their partner." I told her that my initial feeling on this is that I don't want to separate, but that if she decided to go, let me know. She said she doesn't want to make that decision on her own.<P><B>WHAT DO I DO???!!!</B><BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

wld,<P>From the sounds of it, I bet that your W's emotional affair has turned into a physical one...especially since she spent days & evenings away with him on her get-away.<P>I DO NOT suggest separation. It will be harder to Plan A while you are separated.<P>You are telling her the right thing. If she wants a separation, that will have to be her sole decision. Let the burden rest on her.<P>Meanwhile, just continue telling her that you love her, that you are working on yourself, that you understand that you contributed to the demise of your marriage, but that you love her and want to restore the marriage.

Survivor said it perfectly. Don't participate in her decision to separate. If she does it, then let it be her decision, and she should be the one to leave (in my opinion). Make it have consequences for her.<P>This isn't a surprise. It is following the usual pattern, and is all right from the textbook that all our WS studied in affair university. Same with the "I've been trying for years and don't have anything left." Everything she says right now is geared towards making your marriage seem not worth saving. She is in the fog extremely heavily, doing all this right under your nose.<P>I don't know the rules where the OM lives, but here if you are living under the same roof, then you cannot be legally separated. Just thought I'd throw that in. What on earth does his wife think of all this?<P>Follow Survivor's advice. Talk to Steve Harley if you can.

I would suggest not making the decision with her - she is looking for a way to say "Well you agreed", to remove any consequences for her"<P>There is some excellent advice in the thread above "McBroon". <P>You should definately up your Plan A strategy - not helping her with the photos was a Lovebuster in my opinion Why not help her, but explain how it makes you feel. This would not have given them a chance to be emotionally bonding while slagging you off.<P>Be the VERY best person that you can, read through the site and especially the emotional needs. If she's talking to him for hours, how well have you two been communicating? What emotional needs is he meeting that you aren't. This needs to be put right wld, and you can do it.<P>Don't focus on whether the relationship has gone physical if you don't know - if she tells you (keep asking her to be honest and that you want to know how she feels), then deal with it then.<P>i know my wife has a physical A, and it kills me. I see them together in my mind and I would not want that for you.<P>Show how good your relationship could be, think back to when you we're happy and what is missing now and try to get it back.<P>She's wondering if the grass is greener on the other side - weed your garden and sow new seeds. You will reap what you sow.<P>Good luck.

Don't just talk about how you can improve yourself...<P>Do it! (and let her see for herself)<P>...and oh yes...<BR>...<B>IT IS HER DECISION</B>! Not yours!<P> <P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You should definately up your Plan A strategy - not helping her with the photos was a Lovebuster in my opinion Why not help her, but explain how it makes you feel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>McBroon,<BR>Excuse me for jumping in, but I wanted to comment on what you've suggested. <P>I've followed your posts, and I know you're dealing with a very tough situation, my heart goes out to you. By any chance have you read the thread on "length of time for Plan A"? In it, I think you'll see that there is a kind of balance between meeting the ENs of our WS, and meeting our own needs. Indeed, there are often times when we can be counter-productive, enabling the WS to continue, and not face any consequences.<P>Now I'm not saying we should immediately "throw the bums out", but I'm saying we need to look at the fact that we can show our love by insisting on certain boundries. <P>While it's common to go back and look at how the ENs of the WS were not being met, and how this may have led up to the A, I don't hear too much about how the BSs, in a futile attempt to repair things, often allow behavior that tramples all over our own ENs. I don't think we should repeat this same mistake in recovery.<P>Part of what I'm having to do in this is to take a look at just what I need out of a marriage. I realize now that over the years I failed to express my feelings about what I needed in our relationship - mostly safety, and peace. Rather than force the issue, I would withdraw further into my own world, hoping that "she'll grow out of this". Well, of course now I see that this was the worst thing I could have done - pulling away, avoiding conflict, just allowed her to tell herself the big lie "he doesn't love me anyway" to justify her behavior.<P>I encourage you McBroon, to continue with what works for you. I'd hope you'll take a look at just what is acceptable to you, as I have. We BSs want our WSs back, but repeating the same mistakes over and over again will not do it.<BR>Dave

wld - Let me add that IF your wife insists on a separation, then YOU insist on a legal one as part of the deal. Make her play the full role. Ask her to get an attorney to draft one up and then hire an attorney to help you review it. This takes the casualness out of a separation and brings home the fact that it's serious business. When you start talking about how to split expenses, child care, property ownership, divestiture of investments, pension obligations, etc - well you get the point. In the end, if things get worse, this can protect you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an attorney and I initially resisted the concept of a legal separation, but now I see the value in it.<P>WAT

Thanks for your responses.<P>Davidb, If I understand you correctly, you think I did the right thing in not helping her with the scanner thing? It might help to note that the initial bond between these two was photography. She's an amature photographer with a lot of talent, he makes his living at it. They spend a lot of time talking about the subject.<P>I have one more important question on the seperation subject. I believe and agree that I must tell her I don't support such a move. But her next question will be why. I believe that we need to work on us and not run away from the pain that that work causes. Should I tell her that, or is there a more supportive and loving way?<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>I have no advice, and there are no words to comfort you as you face this crisis.<P>I thought that you handled the pictures perfectly. There can be no love without respect, and asking you to help her send pictures to her lover showed a great loss of respect. Gently setting boundaries at least helps restore some of that respect.<P>It sounds like you are in this for the long haul. Can you envision a year of such turmoil? Do you have a network of friends and a therapist or couselor to help?<P>May God help and protect your and your family,<P>StillTrying<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Davidb, If I understand you correctly, you think I did the right thing in not helping her with the scanner thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes. StillTrying said it well. I believe in showing love and meeting ENs, but, for me at least, meeting needs cannot include enabling the very things that are tearing us apart. For me it does not mean contact with the OM, but putting up with the same old lack of honesty that got us into this mess.<P>I will not engage in "arguements" with my W where she blames everything, and everyone else for her problems. I need to become a better H and I'm working on that, but lets face it - the WS usually has much more to fix than we do don't you think? Why shoul we feel afraid to stand up for what's right? The WS often needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Are you two in counselling? <P>I personally would fear a separation with the facts you are dealing with. You seem to know what's right wld, I'd follow the good advice you've been given, and hope, and pray she'll come around. We're here for you.<BR>Dave<BR>

Dave,<P>I see a counselor once a month or so. She's seeing a counselor every week. You'll find more detail <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000548.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>. It's a long thread, but the info is all there.<P>I did get to meet with her counselor. I was afraid that the crap she was bringing home (her ideas that she has to work on herself and that I have nothing to do with the work she's doing) was coming from her counselor. Thankfully, the counselor is great. She is a big supporter of marriage, and has asked my W to bring me in several times. My W's response as always been that she's not ready for that yet. So the counselor is good, but my W doesn't seem to be taking advantage of that.<P>She does seem to think that I'm the one with all the problems at times. And I've told her that the biggest change in me right now is that I'm finally realizing that I hold a huge responsibility in the problems we now face. I think she sees me as the only one responsible.<P>Thanks for the support...again...<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Back to my earlier question.<P>I know I need to tell her that I think a separation would be a mistake. That was my first instinct and the responses here have supported that for the most part. But her next question will be "Why do you think separation would be a mistake?" I know why, but I'm looking for the right words. Can any of you give me a few words that I can use to give her a firm, but supportive and loving response to this inevitable question?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>How about:<P>"I know that we have had some problems in our relationship, and I have been trying to change my own actions, because I love you and want to share with you a rich and fulfilling marriage. But I don't think we will ever know if that is possible unless we work together, perhaps with a counselor. And I don't believe it is possible while your emotional energy is directed towards another man. Of course we have to make this decision together, but in my own opinion, separation doesn't address the crucial problems in our relationship, and would also be hard on our children. Whatever we decide to do must be thought out together, but I propose:<P>(1) You end all contact with OM.<BR>(2) We find a counselor that we both like and agree on, and work with her.<BR>(3) I listen to you and work with you to build the marriage of our dreams.<P>I have thought hard about these ideas, but if, after two years of focusing on ourselves and our family, we find that it still doesn't work, then we will have the peace of divorcing while knowing that we each tried our best."<P>These are all my thoughts and words. Change and re-shape them to fit your own hopes and situation.<P>Also, if you separate, I would think that your children and your families should know the true reason why. Others will disagree about that. What do you think? Have you talked to a counselor about this step?<P>Good luck,<P>StillTrying

Still,<P>You are <B>AWESOME!!!</B> Your post was masterfully written. Your words are a God send to me.<P>This is exactly what I need. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!<P>Anyone else? I'd love get a few ideas and put them together in my own words.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Well, I haven't discussed the seperation topic with her yet, but last night was a good one. She actually spent a little time with me. After dinner and getting the kids settled into bed, I asked her how she'd feel about playing a game (like backgammon, etc). She said she would like that (we used to do this sort of thing a lot when we were first married). I couldn't believe it.<P>I'm still looking for some words along the lines of the stuff Stilltrying posted a couple of posts up. If anyone has any ideas/additions/thoughts, I'd be very greatful.<P>Thanks again,<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."